Grove City College vs. Wheaton

<p>We are considering both Grove City and Wheaton (in Chicago). Does anyboyd have any insights as to the key differences between them?</p>

<p>I do not know about Grove City, but Wheaton is academically strong. The girl who I know who went there was 13 in a class of lik 461, so it attracts bright ppl.</p>

<p>We visited and researched Grove City, but not Wheaton. </p>

<p>We were absolutely impressed with Grove City! There was a tremendous sense of academic seriousness and rigor with an undeniable "Christ is King" spirit. To me, it seemed like the best balance out there. It was definitely in the top few for my son, who ended up with a full ride to a top 20 school. He chose that one for financial reasons. Grove City doesn't meet 100% of need, but they are one of the most affordable schools out there - it's just we needed 100% right now. I can't recommend it highly enough!</p>

<p>I've spent tons of time on both. Allow me to share my observations somewhat, and let you know up front that I'm very biased about one which will be apparent.</p>

<p>Both have attractive students, virtually all of whom are decent academically, although these are dramatically different student bodies. You'd not mistake one for the other. Wheaton is much more national/international, colorful, and worldly in its composition and much more selective in its admissions process. It has students from a broad spectrum of Christian denominationalism. Lots of children of missionary parents serving all over the planet. It's also much more expensive, especially for those families absent of need and students who are not absolutely at the top of their game. The campus is very suburban/metro obviously with access to ChiTown. There are a great many para-ministries based there in Wheaton which is a very upscale bedroom community. It is a very attractive, first class, well maintained campus. The faculty here are top shelf (guess that's not a great metaphor of Billy Graham's alma mater, huh?) They are very academic, published, speaking all over the world and often to the national press, but generally very focused, committed on teaching. Wheaton hosts many national, international Christian gatherings throughout the year and has facilities to support those extraneous activities. </p>

<p>Wheaton has an absolutely spectacular field station campus where students in environmental stuff can and do stay for a semester or longer. There is also another such branch/off campus site that I'm blanking on. GCC is substantially more regional in composition and much less diverse in every way. The student body strikes me as very cosmopolitan, essentially Christian and coming from Christian families, but not overly dogmatic. Wheaton is a world-class place in many way. It is the "Harvard/Princeton/Stanford" of the Christian Colleges. It is also home to the Billy Graham Center and many offshoots of its presence there. It is a member of the Coalition of Christian Colleges.</p>

<p>Grove City, unless it recently joined, is not. I suspect, altho I'm not sure, this is for a number of reasons. GCC is playing catchup in trying to become a significant player in Christian higher education. Its principal claim to fame, as most know, is its pricetag. Proclaims being the lowest cost private institution east of the Mississippi. I'll trust that's true. As a consequence, historically the FA there has been awful, zilch. Their concept is "everyone gets aid" and I guess that's so. The real issue however is what's the real price to pay for this dramatically low cost? Few ask that question, and notably, and this is true ... GCC NEVER answers. </p>

<p>To be continued ...</p>

<p>So interested parties, are left to speculate, considering how any college could so dramatically keep its tuition at bay? And remember ...this is one of the 2 colleges (Hillsdale, which is a vastly different scenario even yet) that said beating their chests, "No federal aid for us!" A nice idea for which ultimately parents pay the price of course. Someone must make it up. Guess who? Taxpayer/tuitionpayers I suspect.</p>

<p>But back to cost (note, not value). What isthe single major expense of any campus? Right, labor, in this case FACULTY. So one possibility is that GCC invests far less than the average bear in its teachers. How so? Well, are they paying "going rate" and benefits? Historically the college was far below, and only in the past 20 or so years or so, agreeing to implement retirement program. So that speaks to the WHO. Do top notch grads come there and stay? Perhaps if they see it as a mission calling. I'm sure there are some, but most of the best would never go there, ESPECIALLY knowing that there is a very narrow company line that when crossed would mean you're gone.</p>

<p>Why? Because historically (perhaps this has changed recently?) there was no protection of tenure. Or maybe it's now a "renewable" tenuring? Anyone know for sure what the scenario is currently?</p>

<p>Next look at how much they are required to work...how many classes, advisees, committees, etc. These would have to be huge. </p>

<p>Next look at how many students each must teach. Historically (and again this may be improving) there student faculty ratios were astronomical. I know at one time they were even higher than Penn State and most of the other mega U's. </p>

<p>So faculty costs/investment ought to raise a lot of questions. It rarely does. Why so? Because for a great many years there was an autocratic, academic layman who'd come from a long line of family members who'd been the leaders of GCC. More recently they've begun to look more traditionally. That said, their current prexy has decent credentials but non-traditional. They've also been very enamored with hiring alums as both leaders and teachers. Which of course leads to ... you know.</p>

<p>One other somewhat less important area of expenses in which they've historically skimped is in student support services. For example, for many years GCC had one person serving as the primary traveling admissions counselor, career counselor, and alumni director. Go figure. But of course who really "pays" for that?</p>

<p>How else might funds be minimized? </p>

<p>To be continued ...</p>

<p>Here's my last thought ...
I'm about done for now, so hang in, if you're at all interested... Remember, someone asked for info and opinions, the latter of which are like belly buttons ...we all have them.</p>

<p>Endowment and fund-raising, i.e. GCC is RAISING subtantially greater amounts of philanthropic $$ than its peers. I'm unaware of GCC's endowment, but from what I've heard and extrapolated from investment income, it's no great shakes. Nor do they appear to receive any type of additional supplement from the Glenemede or Pew funds, which were established by Mr. Pew and Sunoco, GCC's historical benefactors, and the ones who built many of the buildings. In fact, to my knowledge, GCC, unlike virtually every higher education campus on the planet is a relative newcomer to fund-raising. They have only in recent years hired development staff and only recently completed its first ever capital campaign. So it does not seem this is the "reason" for low costs.</p>

<p>So what makes GCC so very attractive to many? 3 very nice things:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>The primary asset of GCC appears to be ...its students. They are consistently bright, physcially attractive, come from good Christian families and have been instilled with a strong, WASPY work ethic. They're very very white (which the PCers and virtually every other liberal source, including many campuses would and do pooh pooh). And in the end, many will argue ..."Well, if GCC is so ho hum academically, intellectually, pedagogically" (and you can reach your own conclusions as you consider the realities.), why do her students do so well. The answer, I suspect, is ...the computer model. You put bright, capable, hard working kids INTO the system ...and just guess what comes out? You got it. </p></li>
<li><p>So GCC's next greatest attribute is ...and this is NOT intended to be glib, as the same cannot be said for a great many campuses...the college does no harm. They don't transform these right thinking and acting young people into that which is far less attractive to employers and even graduate assistant hiring sources. So many young "liberated" and academically indoctrinated people are anything but free-thinkers and rebellion is usually not an attraction to many looking for people to do the work in a timely, ample, and quality way. </p></li>
<li><p>A lovely, well kept and manicured campus (altho some of the buildings are rapidly becoming dated. The campus center is an antique. So on the surface parents say, "Hey, lovely place that 'looks' like a campus,right? The price is so much less painful. GC is such a 'quaint' little place with a bunch of churches that our little Jessica could try out. Let's go for it." </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Just a few final observations:
1. GCC strikes me as much more dogmatic in its position of the Christian faith. Here's what we believe, here's what you should work at believing and even if not sign the statement of faith saying you do. (sorry, I know this is not at all what they'd say.excuse my cynicism of their approach, pls.) Wheaton, of which there's no question it's belief system, seems to allow and nurture a bit more room for faith devopment vs. indoctrination. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>GC as a town has plenty of issues. It's currently going thru a facelift, literally, having been beaten down by the development over the past 15 years or so of the outlet mall about 5 miles down the road. It's literally strangled local business and a once bustling, thriving main street. That'll not change. And like many places, but with some very unique twists, GC is becoming a source of drug trafficking. Why? Very simple ...it's at the intersection of 2 interstates, has a small town police force, ample low income housing, and is strategically located between Pittsburgh and Youngstown, with Cleveland just down the road. Butler to the south is facing the same growing major issue. So it's not what it first seems ...</p></li>
<li><p>And this is a sour grape from a very soured former Presbyterian ...GCC has been and remains too denominationally connected to a dying, fading mainline body, i.e. the Presbyterians. Even though unlike GCC, the denom is now considered among the most liberal (dare I say 'watered down'?) denominations. It's lost about 2/3 of its members and more recently, for example, in nearby Pgh, which was historically home to the largest Presbytery in the world (bodies), congregations are fleeing quickly. I seem to recall that one major in Mt. Lebanon and the largest church, in McCandless or somewhere in the north hills, have bailed. What's the pt? GCC is tied to a sinking ship.</p></li>
<li><p>It's always been baffling that while GCC loves proclaiming its faithful orientation, it has refused to join its fellow evangelical colleges in the CCC. Go figure?</p></li>
<li><p>Remember though, it has wonderful lovely student body. But they are getting precisely what their folks are paying for. The real question is they don't know it.</p></li>
<li><p>Here's my real "gripe" about GCC. Are you ready? They have CLEARLY identified a dramatically more economically friendly model for providing, what they claim is a high quality educational experience. While we can, and I will, vigorously debate that claim, let's say it's more "true" than not for purposes of where I'm heading. Let's agree, it's a very good, vital, quality experience being generated for most students.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>If this is so, and if the entire foundation for doing so is because Jesus Christ said "feed my sheep," "love one another," etc. (and I believe Him with my heart and soul, btw) ...then why does the college proclaiming as its sole purpose to nurture souls who embrace and live these notions ...refuse to say to others, "here's how we're working to change the world and we can enable you too to do it."</p>

<p>I believe we're bright enough to figure that out, don't you?</p>

<p>Last pt. and then I'm done, promise.</p>

<p>Why aren't people SCREAMING and asking this question? Simple when one considers ... Who are the principal players who ask these kind of important but somewhat esoteric questions?</p>

<p>Right! Faculty! So why aren't they asking? Well, if they were to find answers that might include ... faculty are not working enough (teaching, advising, administering committees, etc.), faculty are being paid too much for work being produced and parents are paying, too much money of traditional places is being diverted away from the student learner experience, too many profs are being given lifetime appointments (tenure) and shutting down, too many classes have too few students all in the name of false personalization, too many places are raising private funds not being... it would not merely NOT SERVE THOSE WHO PROCLAIMED THE AH HAH ANSWERs, it would potentially diminish their lifestyles. Some may say risk killing the golden goose that holds one of the world's biggest, most evasive secrets ... WHY is higher education so doggone expensive, why do costs annually increase 7-10% (Bucknell did the magic 10% a few years back) and how can it be stopped, reversed? </p>

<p>And guess who many of the potential answers to questions they will never ask would bite? You got it! So Nazi Sgt. Schultz ' refrain of "I saw NOTHING, NOTHING" and head-in-the sand perpetuates it all. So we can understand why a professor at Michigan's Center for Higher Ed would not ask and pursue answers to these critical questions and others.</p>

<p>But what cannot be understood, in light of GCC's Christian foundation, is why they chronically refuse to offer the answers, even if the questions are not asked. They have a higher calling and responsibility, they'd tell us. But actions can belye sp? the dogmatic proclamation of loving the world so much, they'd reveal their company secrets that all might receive a grand education. Right?</p>

<p>So, indeed GCC may have THE ultimate model. But their mysterious secretiveness and refusal to really "educate" the nation, world and most specifically the higher education universe about this is ...dare I say it... sinful? Must be humans there too.</p>

<p>Yes, even if they offered, would Princeton go "wow" and say "We wanna know more about THIS?" Of course not. </p>

<p>THE END</p>

<p>You are missing the obvious. Grove City is known for it's Supreme Court case in which it refused to follow federal rules regarding a number of antidiscrimination issues. Thus no students are permitted to accept any variety of federal aid. They have huge fundraising (like Hillsdale) amongs conservatives and especially evangelical Christians. They have a nice new campus in the middle of nowhere north of Pittsburgh with a very homogenus student body and faculty.</p>

<p>Wheaton is one of the oldest Christian (with Capital C) colleges with a more cosmopolitan student body and leadership, outside of Chicago. It is much more "vital" in the sense of allowing students to question and explore the many questions one should at that point in life. You must visit and sense the differences - it is night and day.</p>

<p>I'd challenge your contention that Grove City has "huge fund raising" among conservatives. There is absolutely no evidence of this, notably from neither the College's reporting nor the classic conservative foundations and donors. And furthermore, GCC has only had a "development" office and staff in very recent history ...the past 15 or 20 years. This is something that unless a place is out there hammering at it, they'll not get it. Harvard has hundreds on its development staff. Princeton last count was something like 450 development staffers. Sadly, even in any church, the folks must be asked aggressively, continuously. Money's not just "given" even among the Christians. and rarely just "comes" because a cause has perceived merit among donors. Especially among tight Scots Presbyterians. The GCC and Hillsdale scenarios are grossly different in this respect, as the latter has aggressively pursued conservative philanthropy for many years. Not so GCC. As the movie noted ...show me the money. Or even evidence of substantial fund-raising. </p>

<p>Sadly, the Supreme Court descision allowing GCC to opt out of federal money and consequent "strings" (for very good, imo, and lofty reason) has merely served to do 2 things, neither of which is good for the parent-payer/consumer. Disallows public grants and other monies in every form flowing into GCC coffers aside from those the family income and contributions can bring. While that makes for impressive chest-beating and comforting philosophy, someone must make that up. Guess who, Mom & Dad? Yep, like foregone taxes, it has to come from somewhere. No magic, no manna.</p>

<p>The 2nd drawback, is that it allows and perpetuates/nurtures the homogenity that weski notes. It's as white as white can be in the student body, the faculty (Oh, the AA economist George Mason prof Walter Williams, whom I really appreciate, was a visiting or adjunct prof, but that's for show, not for dough), and of course the alumni body and board of governors. So there's zero pressure to change that which they might lend PR verbiage to, and location, institutional inertia, and educational and political philosophy will not move the college. And I'm confident. as evidenced by the complete lack of impetus, initiatives to enhance more cultural diversity at GCC, that most there are totally comfortable with this position.</p>

<p>I was talking to my friends about Wheaton, and Wheaton is very selective. Or at least I think so. </p>

<p>...yah...that's all the info I can contribute, sorry lol</p>

<p>I think a better comparison would be between Wheaton and Biola rather than Wheaton and Grove City.</p>

<p>What I know about Grove City is anecdotal, but I'll share it anyway. Two young men from geek<em>son's high school now attend Grove City. They are thriving like nobody's business. At geek</em>son's high school, these kids were both student body presidents, multi-sport varsity athletes, graduates with top honors, ... leaders in every way. They come from a family of six or seven kids, all great kids, home-schooled up to grade six, very gracious and hard-working family. Deeply religious, church-involved family -- I wouldn't be surprised if all the kids entered the ministry.</p>

<p>Would kids like these thrive anywhere? Probably so, although I imagine they'd have some run-ins with the wackulty (ahem, faculty) at someplace like Berkeley. But they are very, very happy at Grove City. Now, both of them are studying ministry; I don't know what a liberal arts education would be like there -- but for these young men, it's been a wonderful place to learn and grow.</p>

<p>I've heard plenty of criticisms that PCUSA has gone squishy, but from what these kids have shared, Grove City doesn't seem to have followed. A nice change from the quasi-religious schools (Pepperdine does come to mind, but there are better examples) that lose or disavow their roots over time.</p>

<p>As to Whistle Pig's long line of suppositions about Grove City's choice to eschew federal funding -- their reasoning is the same as Hillsdale's, and it's based on the deepest principles we hold in the US. Federal funds /always/ come with strings attached. If a college becomes dependent on federal money, then it becomes beholden to the whims of Congress and the USDOE -- neither of which seems particularly friendly to the mission of a Hillsdale or a Grove City these days. They preserve their autonomy and the purity of their mission by eschewing federal funds, and in the process they demonstrate that it's possible to thrive without government meddling. And for a smaller school, jumping through federal reporting and compliance hoops often costs so much that it's hardly worth the money received in the first place.</p>

<p>What Hillsdale does -- and I think Grove City is similar in this regard -- is solicit private funds. Not just for its operating budget, but for the zillion-plus scholarships and private loans offered directly to students. Again, I can only share anecdotally: One of our young ladies is at Hillsdale on a full-ride scholarship. It looks like Grove City's scholarship focus has been more localized than Hillsdale's; as the college matures and more of its graduates succeed financially, I imagine the private scholarships will expand.</p>

<p>It's good to hear there are students enjoying and thriving @ GCC. What else would one expect from 2500 or so bright students from Christian homes?</p>

<p>Let's look at the anecdote suggesting that Hillsdale and GCC are 2 peas in a Fed-hating pod, especially when it comes to fund-raising. The evidence which is anything but anecdotal suggests that the implications or suggestions that GCC does monumental fund-raising is absent. And in fact, it should be. For looking @ GCC's charter, history, and even a public statement on their website notes:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Contrary to what many believe, Grove City College does not have a large endowment from which it draws interest to offset day-to-day expenses. At the direction of two great former trustees, Joseph Newton Pew and his son and eventual successor J. Howard Pew, the College specifically does not have such an endowment.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And in fact, the College has been true to this mandate of its earlier benefactors (devout, conservative Presbyterian oil barons who owned Sunoco once) (btw, this notion of NO INVESTMENT income is shared among many churches that perceive that a church or a college should be able to operate on its frugally managed operations, funded by those who care, i.e. students and parishoners and NOT estate gifts or huge capital contributions), until recently having no development/fund-raising staff or administrative function and only recently completing its first modest capital campaign. Somewhere north of $60m, not much among its competing institutions. Additional evidence, which is very telling, is studying the annual reports and grants among the huge foundation community just 50 miles south in Pgh (Pgh has the 2nd largest foundation resource in the world). Rarely/never saw GCC grants among the Heinz, Mellon, McCune, Grable, Scaife, etc. grants. Why? They didn't seek them. Another piece of evidence that many mythologically like to point to is that Pew family, whose largesse is now captured in the Pew Foundation and Glenmede Trusts. Reports show no major flow of cash to GCC. To the contrary, the Pews might likely "pewk" if they saw the types of things their family fortune funds. So, little, no endowment, very immature, recent fund raising ...by mandate.</p>

<p>Hillsdale is a totally different animal, aggressively raising funds for decades principally among donors who perceive entrepreneurial capitalism to be essential to our freedoms and future as a nation. Thus their determination to refuse Fed funds, very different from GCC's opposition. Their website notes:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Hillsdale does not accept federal or state taxpayer funding for any purpose, including student financial aid. Abiding by the motto, “Pursuing Truth and Defending Liberty Since 1844,” the College upholds its independence with the help of private funding—gifts, pledges, planned gifts and grants—that provides gift income to meet annual expenses not covered by tuition revenues and endowment earnings.</p>

<p>Hillsdale's trustees and administrators are committed to building and protecting the school's endowment...

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So these are apples and oranges, by confession and profession of each institution.</p>

<p>All of which brings me back to my earlier points which are not anecdotal. For those who claim to the contrary, inquiring minds are dying to know. But you must do better than ..."my neighbor's best friend's son says there's no beer in Grove City" or "our church sent a love offering for 3 African students who were trying to get to GCC." Show me the money, or at least some hard evidence.</p>

<p>And the truthful adage that "we get what we pay for ..." well, GCC consumers ought to be most interested in that reality, especially when it comes to their educations.</p>

<p>Still there's one bit of good news in all of this ... THERE IS ONE MAJOR EXCEPTION to the rule of no free or forgiven tuition! It's the free gift of salvation and eternal life that comes to those who believe and embrace that Jesus is precisely who He claimed to be ...God! Truth is it's the only "free lunch" ever offered. </p>

<p>And after all, isn't that the essential central message of any Christian college? While it should be, it's unfortunately not so ...</p>

<p>Don't you love it when a point comes together? ;)</p>

<p>Well, I'm a senior this year and I'm really hoping to go to Wheaton (applied early action). I don't know too much about Grove City, but I'll do the best I can.</p>

<p>Wheaton has an outstanding academic reputation and I think is more selective (there's a reason people call it the Harvard of Christian colleges). Their students are all pretty smart (I think 54% graduated in the top ten percent in HS). Though I'm sure GCC has smart kids as well. Wheaton also has really excellent professors, which I can't really comment on for GCC.</p>

<p>As others have said, Wheaton is more diverse. They have a lot of missionary kids from other countries, and a whole lot of students from outside Illinois (I'm in Texas).</p>

<p>Wheaton is evangelical Christian, GCC is I guess mainline Presbyterian (someone else said). I also agree that Wheaton is more about developing your Christian faith rather than indoctrination.</p>

<p>Wheaton is close to Chicago instead of in the middle of rural Pennsylvania (one reason I like it). Its facilities are also really nice, and last year they became a totally wireless campus (a huge benefit). GCC's campus is pretty, but I've heard a lot of their buildings are run-down.</p>

<p>GCC is much less expensive, which again I don't really know the circumstances.</p>

<p>Hope this helps!</p>

<p>Grove City and Wheaton are nearly equally difficult to get accepted to. E.g. both admit about 55% of apps. H.S. GPA's, ACT scores, etc of incoming freshmen are practically the same.</p>

<p>I have a son at GCC and have been thrilled with the school. Some of the implications above, to the effect that GCC is too doctrinaire, or not developing a sense of mission to the world in its students, seem absurd to me. We looked at several top Christian schools (but not Wheaton) and GCC's spiritual climate was, to us, easily the healthiest, most balanced, and most authentic. </p>

<p>By several objective measures GCC is academically excellent. Its core curriculum, exposing students to the basis of Western Civilization through a Christian perspective, is outstanding, and was a big selling point for us. </p>

<p>No school is without warts, and no school is for everyone. Grove City is a great choice for students looking for a smallish conservative Christian college that takes academic rigor and a Christian worldview seriously. I believe that Wheaton is also.</p>

<p>Interesting observations, and it's good knowing there are GCC champions. I suspect beyond tuition-grateful parents and some alums, there are few who'd look @ these 2 and place them even close to each other in any kind of ranking. GCC'd win the tuition battle, WC'd win nearly all others. But that's why they have beauty contests and even the fat girls passing out programs find their lovemates. And to their credit, they often make the best partners as many great songs remind us. "Fat Bottom Girls Make the World Go Round" and that old one admonishing us to "Never Make a Pretty Woman Your Wife." Hey they may not be Christian hymns, but they have meaningful messages ...</p>

<p>GCC's sure to be a fine match for many. But the Harvard of the Christian colleges? :eek::confused: Note: Even this enthusiastic parent either cannot answer or will not seek to know its truth of just how it all works. Free lunches are deceptive mirages. Even cheap ones ...</p>

<p>Regarding how Grove City College manages to charge very low tuition and yet maintain its pristine and great looking campus and still pay her faculty reasonably good salaries, I just recently came across a Grove City College student's parent's mail. The school recently sent their donors and parents of students their 2008 annual report and we can get a glimpse of how the college manages.</p>

<p>Firstly, they do not have a large endowment fund. This report tells us that their current endowment is about $120 Million Dollars, which because of hard times, has fallen to about $114 Million ( not bad considering Harvard and Yale's billion dollar endowment funds dropped by 25% this year ). So, it isn't bad compared to most benchmark fund performances.</p>

<p>Secondly, they have a large number of company donors on their list. Among those listed in the report are foundations from -- ACCENTURE, ABBOT LABS, ALCOA, BOEING, CATERPILLAR, CONOCO PHILIPS, DEL MONTE,CORNING, EXXON MOBILE, GENERAL ELECTRIC, GLAXO SMITHKLINE, LOCKHEED MARTIN, IBM, MICROSOFT, HOME DEPOT, WELLS FARGO, SHELL, SIEMENS, XEROX, BANK OF NEW YORK, TYCO, UPS, US STEEL, VERIZON, STATE FARM, SCHERING-PLOUGH, etc.</p>

<p>I notice that there are at least 100 such companies who give gifts to Grove City and they also happen to be among the 150 companies that recruited on campus this year.</p>

<p>Then there are the scores of foundations and organizations like THE COMMONWEALTH FOUNDATION, HELEN BAILEY FOUNDATION, ATLAS ECONOMIC RESEARCH FOUNDATION, ARMSTRONG, JOHN TEMPLETON, etc. that provide valuable resources to the college.</p>

<p>Then there are trusts, estates, memorial gifts and their most recent alumni drive, etc.</p>

<p>Grove City College recently acquired an Observatory from Edinborough College. It will be headed by Dr. Guillermo Gonzalez ( controversial proponent of Intelligent Design, who was denied tenure at Iowa State ). The money to operate this observatory came from alumni donations given to the Grove City College Swezey Scientific Instrumentation and Research Fund. This observatory houses a robotic telescope that can be remotely controlled via the internet. Students can simply login to computer and once connected, are able to use the telescope as if they were actually at the controls of the observatory.</p>

<p>Suffice it to say the college is able to operate without government aid because of generous donations from foundations, companies and trusts.</p>

<p>I am personally of the opinion that government interference and dependence on federal money is one major reason why tuition in private colleges are spiraling much higher than inflation. Grove City College has been operating independently for over 30 years through thick or thin without resorting to tax dollars. It is a very admirable school and together with Hillsdale, is worthy of emulation.</p>

<p>For those who want to know. The most recent Grove City College 2008 annual report is entitled TOUCHING THE WORLD -- The Honor Roll of Giving. You can get a glimpse of who gives to the school, what companies, foundations and individuals sponsor and donate to the college's programs and their condensed financial statements.</p>

<p>Well, if Grove City College manages to charge less than $20,000 in room, tuition and board and is still able to retain good faculty, there are only the following possibilities :</p>

<p>1) It really manages her money well and has REGULAR, CONSISTENT, FAITHFUL, GENEROUS and BIG DONORS ( and I am not talking about Pew Foundation either ) who believe in its mission.</p>

<p>2) It is slowly depleting the money she has and will eventually run out of it and close doors (I don't think the tuition she charges is enough to maintain the campus and its operations).</p>

<p>3) Like Bernard Madoff, it is operating a huge Ponzi scheme which will eventually come crashing down.</p>

<p>I can't think of any other possibilities. Having observed the college and the quality of her graduates for 30 years, and knowing a few executives from companies that do give ( in the millions like Ed Breen, CEO of TYCO, who donated $5 Million to the college recently), I'd stake my money on #1.</p>

<p>Skeptics can bet on #2 and #3, but I'm willing to bet the college will outlast everyone's lives who are reading this thread ( just as she has done for over 130 years ).</p>

<p>
[quote]
I'm willing to bet the college will outlast everyone's lives who are reading this thread

[/quote]
</p>

<p>A fairly safe bet, as it would be for virtually any, all of the current 3,000+ 4 year institutions. Colleges and churches are the master organizations when success is measured by survival. A comforting note that would be true of virtually all but a relative handful of campuses.</p>

<p>While it's good to know about corporate donors, most of which were possibly, probably corporate matching donors, i.e. supporting alumni and/or friends gifts (since these are the very organizations that hire GCC grads ...along with dozens, hundreds of other institutions). But what would be more telling and insightful if folks could offer ...</p>

<p>btw, the argument that "GCC should not reveal its secrets to its competitors" really flies in the face of its mission. And notably being a Christian institution.</p>

<p>What's the overall GCC budget? What is the overall charitable giving? Those numbers can be compared to other institutions.</p>

<p>Despite the information nicely shared, it tells us virtually nothing about the fiduciary management and strategies of GCC. </p>

<p>Statements like "retaining good faculty" are nice and complementary, but are not supported by any information we have so far. The question remains: in the intentional absence of any major endowment, in the absence of knowing how much revenue is generated annually from charitable/philanthropic sources, and the absence of budget figures, faculty numbers (number of instructors AND total budget to pay them), the public remains in the dark about this mystery. </p>

<p>Can we get specifics that will allow for insights beyond broad, sweeping generalizations? Until those are known, consumer beware. As Joe has illustrated once again, there can be no free lunch.</p>

<p>And more important, the greatest service to humanity, Christians and otherwise, would be revealing HOW GCC allegedly provides its education at a monumentally lower cost. Why? Because others beyond GCC would be able to implement such a model ...AND so many more beyond the 2,500 or so GCC students would benefit. Now that would be the greatest, transformational thing a Christian college that somehow seems to have a secret ...or several of them...to make a huge contribution to a hurting world ...and lots of students who have only the godless state colleges as their refuge.</p>

<p>Let's be specific about this one. It's the only way to know the truth.</p>

<p>I have some experience with GCC and especially with Hillsdale, and some dated experience with Wheaton. </p>

<p>What non-Catholic Christians will want to know about GCC is that between 1/4 and 1/2 of the student body is actually practicing Catholic. At Wheaton, there are simply NO Catholics (or very very few). This may bother some, and be of no consequence to others. </p>

<p>GCC has an excellent rep in the western PA/eastern OH area, and many companies heavily recruit from that school for engineers and for teachers, in addition to all the other majors.</p>