Guidance Counselor Blues

Parents Forum
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<p>OK, not really the guidance counselors per se - they're very nice.</p>

<p>I have 2 rising sophs; upper middle class suburb of Chgo, "good" school district (though not a New Trier type). Like the hs, lots of AP classes, good teachers, etc. </p>

<p>Just received the list of where this year's seniors are going. To say it's unimpressive is an understatement. Out of about 500 seniors - about 40-50 to UIUC (certainly a strong flagship and a very solid choice). 2 kids to service academies; only 5 other kids to what I'd consider top schools (Penn, WUSTL, NYU, Grinnell, W&M). A handful of kids to out-of-school publics, but not the Michigans / Wisconsins / UVA level. Everyone else is going to the local comm college or to NIU / SIU / EIU / WIU / IL State. No one at NU, UChicago, or ND - three top schools in our freakin' backyard since everyone just seems so damn scared to leave this area!</p>

<p>While I totally understand the appeal of UIUC, the neighboring districts of equal socioecon status at least have a few dozen kids going to (say) Vandy, Georgetown, Duke, Tufts, Emory, UVA, Michigan, Boston College, Oberlin, Carleton, Tulane, maybe some of the women's schools, Reed, Davidson, Amherst, Middlebury, Cornell, etc. And where do those schools visit when they come here? You guessed it, the other schools, not this one. </p>

<p>Parenthetically, I know of one very smart kid in our school who applied to Harvard, Yale, Penn (legacy) and UIUC. Didn't get into any of the top 3 and so is going to UIUC. Now, nothing wrong with UIUC. But I think it's a crime that apparently no one counseled him anywhere in between Ivy and state u.</p>

<p>Now, I don't think my kids are necessarily Ivy-bound. And I feel confident that between myself and the kind folks on CC, I can research some intriguing college options; and I'm certainly not all Ivy-or-bust.<br>
But here's what concerns me. What do I do about this culture? Given that I can't change the culture, how do I (nicely) express my concerns that how are these teachers going to be able to write the kind of recs that get students into top schools and how are the GC's going to provide useful info when their bread & butter is a different type of school? How do I get help in thinking expansively? Do I need / should I investigate a private counselor?</p>

<p>There's a new head of counseling who comes from one of the school districts I'm referencing and I think she's open to trying to create a different culture, but I suspect it's an uphill battle.</p>

<p>Again, I'm not all Ivy-or-bust. But there's a big, big world out there of options, we are fortunate enough to be able to explore them, and the culture just seems too small for my taste. Suggestions?</p>

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<p>Look at it this way: your kids can do things at their high school that no one else will be doing. No competition from Ivy bound classmates. Have them start a voter registration drive or whatever else they are interested in. They will stand out as exceptions on their campus and that will help them come application time, regardless of where they apply. You do not have to change the culture of the high school, just rise above it when it doesn't suit you.</p>

3

<p>First of all, I can tell you that it is possible that the student (and his family) who applied to 3 top schools and ended up at UIUC, felt that they did not want to pay the private school premium for anything other than those 3 schools. With such an excellent state school available, this often occurs. My good friend's daughter ended up at UIUC after getting into a number of private colleges, and after assessing the cost/ value of all of them. She did get merit awards (no financial aid), butUIUC was by far the best value to them. They could have afforded the full private college costs, but did not feel that was the best use of their money given the option of their excellent state school.</p>

<p>Our son would have done the best financially with his state school choices as well. But he had things that he wanted that were not available at those schools and came up with a strong preference for a small private LAC. We would have been hard put to have agreed, had he not gotten a merit award along with his own savings, summer wages and Stafford loan. That with our savings made it within what we felt comfortable paying. MY H felt that for our second son, the only diff between his private and public choices in terms of value were the $$$s. A lot of people feel that way.</p>

4

<p>
[quote]
No one at NU, UChicago, or ND

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, our middle class school (significant portion on free/reduced lunches at this school) send quite a few to NW last year. NW only offers need based aid. Maybe your school saw no one go to NW because they got no aid? A kid I know w/better stats than many of the NW kids would have gone there but for the high cost.</p>

<p>How many of your kids went to the IL private schools like Ill Wesleyan, Elmhurst College? Loyala, DePaul? Beloit? Do you think the counselors are directing kids to the state schools?</p>

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<p>Thanks for your input! I certainly have no beef or quarrel with UIUC; it's a fine choice and it's quite possible one or both of my kids may wind up there -- but I don't want it to be for lack of exploring other options. </p>

<p>For the family I am speaking of ... I believe they would have indeed paid for other than HYPenn; I believe that the GC just has <em>no clue</em> how difficult it is to get into that level school, figured he'd get into at least one since he's "smart," misled them into believing the Penn legacy meant a virtual shoe-in, and therefore didn't counsel them to look at other top privates in the top 30 or so. Which just concerns me because I want someone who will be both knowledgeable about a wide range of colleges and truthful about chances for my kids. I am sure the GC did her best, but there's just not the familiarity. </p>

<p>Are the private counselors worth it, or a waste of $$ if I'm able and willing to do legwork?</p>

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<p>If your child is intelligent, hardworking and nice, I am sure s/he will get fine recommendations. It takes more than the letters of recommendations to get into top schools. Need great activities, research, awards, super high test scores,fantastic GPA, etc. etc. The letters are just one piece of the entire picture.</p>

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<p>Treetopleaf - No one to Beloit. Not sure about IL Wesleyan. Maybe 3 at most between Loyola and DePaul. Elmhurst is within easy commuting distance so I presume students going there are living with parents; same for Benedictine. (Don't want to give too much away!) </p>

<p>Judgmentally, it just seems as though the real focus of the school counselors is NIU/EIU/SIU/IL State, not UIUC.</p>

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<p>Thanks - it's not so much that they need / want to get into the very top schools; I harbor no delusions! I guess I just feel that at the other schools, there's someone who will guide a kid a bit more, who will say "Hey, you should take advantage of Model UN or this writing competition or the National French Contest or [insert activity of choice]" and keep an eye out. And I don't think that goes on here. And if they wind up looking at colleges that are off the beaten path, I don't want someone blowing smoke at me about their chances because they mean well but just don't know any better. KWIM?</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Judgmentally, it just seems as though the real focus of the school counselors is NIU/EIU/SIU/IL State, not UIUC

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I haven't seen our senior plans for this year yet, but based on last year's range of schools you're seeing a different set than what I've seen here. One of the reasons I'm reading CC is to understand why so few kids go to NIU and the others. They seem to pick UIUC, city schools, private downstate schools and the local CC. Relatively few choose the 'directionals'. I can't figure it out, but maybe it is counseling?</p>

<p>What's the vibe on North Central? No one from hereabouts goes there, and it's not farther than Elmhurst.</p>

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<p>I always assumed that it was up to my kids, H and I to do all of the college research. Our GC is a wonderful person, and she did the counselor recommendations in a timely manner, but we never asked for her opinion on which schools our kids should apply to. Our kids presented her with their lists and she thought they were fine. They each got admitted to top 10 schools.</p>

<p>Only a few other kids in our small public HS have gone to top 20 schools, and none ever to the Ivys. Some go to UIUC, UIC and more to EIU, WIU, SIU and ISU. A few go to North Central and Elmhurst, and I have heard good things about both of them. Almost half the class goes to College of DuPage, our community college.</p>

<p>The other parents I have spoken to haven't mentioned getting advice on where to apply from GC. Sounds like they all come up with their own lists.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
how do I (nicely) express my concerns that how are these teachers going to be able to write the kind of recs that get students into top schools and how are the GC's going to provide useful info when their bread & butter is a different type of school? How do I get help in thinking expansively?

[/quote]

Don't worry about it. You don't really need to use the counselors at all as long as you know what courses your kids should take given their (and your) track they want to be on. And I doubt teacher recommendations are really going to get the kids into top schools. They're at best a minor supplement to the actual grades, EC, etc. Besides, I'm sure the teachers are able to give adequate recommendations about how great a particular kid did in their class.</p>

<p>So, my suggestion is to forget about the counselors, the teacher recs, where the other kids went to college, and focus on your kids. Learn what you can from CC and from the potential colleges. Learn what courses are offered at your kids' school and have them enroll in the right ones. Have them pursue the ECs and sports that they're interested in and that might also help them on their college apps.</p>

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<p>I wouldn't blame the GC -- kids who really want privates have plenty of other resources to find the information.... this board is just one of many. Given the high cost of private colleges these days I'm not sure its really worth it for people who don't even have the inclination to spend a few hours browsing the internet or picking up a couple of college guides from the local book store. </p>

<p>My son went to the type of public high school where most kids were off to the state schools, if they want to college at all -- and he had no problem lining up reasonably good rec letters from teachers and getting into the various LAC's he targeted --so if you are worried that the GC's are somehow messing things up, I don't think that's necessarily the case. In hindsight, however, my son probably would have been better off attending the local flagship state U -- he dropped out of the private LAC after 2 years, eventually graduated from a lower-tier in-state public ... so the point is that "private" is not necessarily all its cracked up to be in any case. All those kids going off to the state schools may actually be doing the right thing.</p>

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<p>honestly, there are much worse cases of guidance counselors. some in my area lose full applications and don't tell the student until it's too late to change anything...don't give recs, etc, an uphill battle to get just an app, not to mention college guidance. if your school is neutral-will get apps done, but won't give you help in selection, you really can't complain</p>

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<p>Thanks, Calmom - It's not that I think the GC's are messing things up or aren't well-intentioned. It's more just that I don't have anyone (in person) to say, "Oh, your kid is interested in X and Y, here's a program / school that might be up his alley." Or "that program fits his interests, but the students at that school tend to be more on the __ side so he'll want to think about whether he'll want that environment." And I know at some of the "better" public schools the guidance counselors do fill that role.</p>

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<p>As a rising Junior undergraduate who has gone through the process twice (just recently for transferring), I can say that counting on yourself and your own family to do all of the work that you can do -- obviously sans recommendations, transcripts, so forth -- is the best way.</p>

<p>Put some of the responsibility on your kids. If they invest time into researching and requesting information from the colleges themselves, they'll feel more attached to the schools. It's also great experience for how the world really works: they will be expected to seek out information on their own once they are in college, so why not start now? Waiting for someone to hold the hands of your children should be a thing of the past. They're not young kids anymore: let them do some work!</p>

<p>Don't worry so much about the other kids at your local school. Unless you're willing to move or go private, you're beating a dead horse. That's not to say you can't rally support and make improvement; you obviously can, and I strongly recommend that you do so. However, it is important to be realistic: these are the cards you've been dealt.</p>

<p>And while you say you're alright with kids not all going to Ivy League schools, please realize that the other schools you mention as being "non-Ivy" are still almost all in the Top 50 colleges in this country, and in some cases, the world. Remember that there are thousands of other schools, and despite what elementary teachers may say, not everyone is "special." It's a hard truth to accept, but mediocrity is a fact of life. Schools like "NIU / SIU / EIU / WIU / IL State" are the norm, not the exception.</p>

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<p>We feel your pain! Our kids went to our mediocre public high school (has just two APs - one isn't worth taking!!). The counselors at our school only know the state schools and only encourage kids to apply to those schools. They don't do any of the paperwork, don't recommend teachers to write letters, and don't offer to help you come up with a list of schools to apply to (and you really wouldn't want them to). </p>

<p>When our D's started high school we told them to just follow their heart. Play a sport if they wanted to - both played tennis and did fairly well. Join only clubs you were interested in and try to have a leadership position in one or two of those clubs. Take the most difficult classes offered and do the best you can - both were vals. They wrote their own essays with only me as their proof reader. We would go over to H's office when it was closed in the evenings and they typed their own application forms on the typewriters there. Of course teachers have to write recommendations letters, but that is sort of out of your control. They just asked their favorite teachers. </p>

<p>Younger D decided to apply to only four schools and was accepted by all. Many, many said she "should apply to the ivies" and she said, "What for?" The schools she selected had what she was looking for. She was accepted to two schools ranked in the 80's by USN&WR, one a large public and one a smaller private - both with four year free rides. She was also accepted to Notre Dame ED (as a noncatholic) as a Notre Dame Scholar and to Washington University in St. Louis. She searched by herself, applied by herself, and made the decision of which school to attend by herself. She just completed her freshman year at WashU!! The Internet is a wonderful source of information and you can find out anything you want to know from the incredibly knowledgable people on CC. As many before me have said, admission is based on many, many factors. Your kids should just try to be as complete a "package" as they can be, staying true to themselves. Not become something manufactured by a paid outside counselor.</p>

<p>My nephew, who lives in a different state, was one incredible kid. He did the IB program, was a Presidential Scholar semi, NMF, val, 2390 SAT (one and only sitting), etc. etc. - amazing! He was rejected by Harvard, Stanford and MIT. Admitted by NW, WashU, CalTech, and Harvey Mudd. Chose NW and is loving every minute of it. He also did all of his applications by himself. Would he have had a better shot at HSM if a "professional" had helped him, who knows - admissions to those top schools is such a crap shoot!</p>

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<p>Pizzagirl,</p>

<p>You said that there are 500 kids in the senior class. Well, that's a problem right there. We have 330 kids in my high school. Guidance counselors, unfortunately, do not have the time that they want to have to work with each student individually on college prep. I wish they did, and so does the man who is our director of guidance. Instead, he coordinates tests, sits on every committee, handles all graduation details, attends IEP meetings, etc. And the issues that kids deal with today -- enough said.</p>

<p>Our guidance director was still working the other night at 7 p.m. and lives more than 40 minutes from the school. I know. My sons and I left the school just before he did.</p>

<p>At least our guidance director is realistic. If he believes the school is a reach, he will tell a kid that it is. We have other counselors/personnel who have kids dreaming dreams of schools that will not admit them -- based on scores and GPA. I understand that it's great to dream, but let's be honest, too. Applying to schools is not cheap either. My son has spoken with our guidance director -- usually late in the afternoon when all the kids have left. It's five minutes here or there, but the two are on the same page. My son has put himself in a position to be a possible candidate for admission at the top schools, but he admits that all the guidance counseling in the world will not change the odds in his favor. It's still a crapshoot.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
It's more just that I don't have anyone (in person) to say, "Oh, your kid is interested in X and Y, here's a program / school that may be up his alley."

[/quote]
I think that's wishful thinking, at least at any public school. My d attended a public arts magnet with a terrific GC hired with PTA funds to focus on college advising only. He did all sorts of things to help with the process -- but not really on the level of matching school programs to the student. He certainly did a good job of pointing kids in the right direction, such as sending out notice of college fairs and inviting many college reps to the campus; even sending out a regular e-newsletter to students and parents. But I think the job of connecting kid to program is just too big -- too many colleges, too many different programs, too many possibilities.</p>

<p>Also, at many schools where the GC's do attempt such "matching" -- anecdotally we get a lot of complaints about GC's underestimating the chances of ordinary students. That is, kids who could easily win admission to many less selective 4 years college are steered toward community college -- so sometimes too much advice from the GC can be a bad thing.</p>

<p>I think most GC's have their hands full just helping student shape their high school courseloads and then helping them meet appropriate deadlines during the process. </p>

<p>As far as finding the right college goes, I started with the guidebooks. My d's GC asked her to meet with him during spring of junior year with a list of colleges that she might be interested in -- then he went over the list and marked the colleges with check marks to indicate reach/match/safety.</p>

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<p>My friends' kids who have the guidance counselor advice you'd envision go to pricey ($25-30k) a year private high schools. From what I hear, that's one of the biggest assets of the schools (tailored, informed counseling) and one of the biggest differences from a public HS. At our public, we have 500 kids in a class too....the guidance counselors do some admin work & are open to questions, but there's not much which is proactively tailored to the individual students (e.g. 'here's a competition you might be interested in!').</p>

<p>If you'd like that assist & have the funds, maybe a private counselor is the way to go? </p>

<p>I use the wonderful CC advice as a big resource!!</p>

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<p>"It's more just that I don't have anyone (in person) to say, "Oh, your kid is interested in X and Y, here's a program / school that may be up his alley." </p>

<p>"I think that's wishful thinking, at least at any public school."</p>

<p>I do know it goes on in one of the public school districts here.
Example: The young man I referenced in our district -- applied HYPenn and then UIUC as backup, no GC here ever questioned strategy, suggested that the Penn legacy wasn't the shoe-in the family was counting on, never suggested any other top 30 schools or LAC's that might be good fits for this young man.
Nearby district -- similarly smart young lady with similar credentials -- interested in Duke, Pton, Stanford with UIUC as backup. GC in that district wisely counseled her about her realistic chances for D/P/S, suggested a few other schools, girl ultimately was rejected at D/P/S but got into Vandy and Emory and is now at Vandy. A better overall counseling experience because it was someone who had a realistic assessment of chances of D/P/S and had a knowledge base of other excellent schools that fit the person's interests and character. I think that's an overall better outcome. Finances were not the issue in either situation.</p>

<p>Jahn1012 -- how might you suggest I "do something" to change the culture? I want to make them aware of how I feel and how mediocre this is, esp compared to some of the surrounding school districts that are just more open to better schools, but I don't want to be offputting and shoot myself (or my kids) in the foot.</p>