Guidance oounselor recs & avoiding 'checklists'

Parents Forum
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<p>Hi,
Son is all ready to apply to a few schools (right now..just found out a few apps are online!) and have to get the GC to send a letter of rec, etc.</p>

<p>I know (from reading CC!) that the GCs can send a general letter instead of the form I've seen online that requests the GC rate the student on a percentile scale for things like 'perseverence' (10 or so qualities). </p>

<p>Just trying to make sure I do this right....if I ask the GC to write such a letter & send it to schools my son applies to (I've checked w/at least one of the schools, they're okay w/letter instead of form)...will the same letter be sufficient for all schools to which son applies? I would think so, but just want to check. Tyring not to impose on GC more than necessary.</p>

<p>Also--would it be appropriate/helpful to gently request that GC mention how son has really had 180 degree turn-around from soph year (bad grades, then...all As now)? </p>

<p>Thanks for any thoughts. Hard to believe we are at this application point!!!</p>

<p>Appreciate it....</p>

2

<p>The same letter will work for more than one school. You should check with the schools as to how they want the letter...usually in a sealed envelope with the name of the applicant and sometimes SSN or some other identifying number then the letter should come to you and be sent in with other supplements to the common or online app.
Our HS has the parents and student fill out a lengthy form so that the GC has enough background to write a good letter. If your GC isn't very personally familiar with your student you might check with him/her on whether a list of accomplishments, including stuff from outside school would be helpful</p>

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<p>You should probably check with your GC to find out your school's proceedure for sending out apps. </p>

<p>Our school has the student fill out rec requests for the GC and 2-3 teachers in early Sept (although I'm sure they would accomodate early requests). The request includes a questionaire that asks for basic resume info so the recommender has background info on the student. The GC then collects the rec letters and keeps them in the student's file. Student's fill out transcript requests when they are ready to submit their apps and check off any add'l info they want submitted with the transcript and school profile (test scores, rec letters). Seniors are given a calendar listing transcript req deadlines...if app due 12/1, req due to counselor 11/15, etc. The school then sends everything they generate in one package and the student receives a confirmation of the materials sent and the date. If a college insists on their own forms, the GC also sends them out. It is a really good system and we did not have any problems with our 3 kids app submissions. Good luck, the time really flies.</p>

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<p>Thank you both!!!</p>

<p>Forgot (how could I?) about the 'background letter' to be sent to GC to inform rec. In our school (over 2,000 students, only 8 GCs) that would be essential.</p>

<p>Appreciate!</p>

<p>Edit to ask: Should the <em>student</em> write the letter summarizing his activities/resume or would it be (at all?) appropriate for a parent to send it (with the student's input? Maybe--a joint letter, as ebeee's school has a joint, parent/student form?) ~~ Thanks!!</p>

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<p>^ One word of advice - it might be best if your son interfaced with the GC. Our own definitely preferred it that way and it's best to stay on their good side. :)</p>

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<p>Just trying to make sure I do this right....if I ask the GC to write such a letter & send it to schools my son applies to (I've checked w/at least one of the schools, they're okay w/letter instead of form)...will the same letter be sufficient for all schools to which son applies? I would think so, but just want to check. Tyring not to impose on GC more than necessary.</p>

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<p>The form should still be sent. It asks for some information that colleges use to get a sense of the student in relation to his peers (including all those boxes to be checked). Most GC's will also write a letter to accompany the form, but the form is important. Having been a school counselor myself, I would never send the letter without the form. </p>

<p>The student should be the one asking the guidance counselor for recommendations, and asking that certain things be included. I do have my students fill out a questionnaire for me that asks them questions about their MAIN activities outside of the classroom (including hobbies), their academic interests and career goals (if they know them), and an explanation of why they have chosen the schools they're applying to. If your school doesn't use a questionnaire, giving the GC a brief one page letter of the KEY things the student hopes to get across can work too.</p>

<p>A one page resume of their MAIN EC's, in order of importance, with some information about what they have learned about themselves from participating, is also helpful.</p>

<p>If they give me a copy of their main essay before I start writing the recommendation, that is also extremely helpful as it lets me get a sense of how the student sees themself.</p>

<p>I also ask each student to let me know which teachers will be writing their teacher recommendations, and to provide the name of one or two other teachers that they feel know them well. That way, if I need more insight into the student, I have someone to talk to.</p>

<p>I really love it when students make sure to include their email address with all of their information -- I sometimes need to get clarification, or ask additional questions, and shooting out an email is much easier than tracking the student down at school. I also appreciate it when students give me all of their recommendation forms and requests in an organized manner, including a separate list of the colleges they're applying to, so if something gets lost (happens!), I have a backup list.</p>

<p>I ask parents to fill out a questionnaire about their children, but, to be honest, most of what I say in the recommendation letters really comes from the student, my interactions with them in the past, and sometimes some feedback from their teachers. However, I do appreciate hearing from parents when they have specific concerns about how I will cover certain issues (i.e., will disciplinary issues be mentioned? Should the student disclose a learning disability? Are you aware of these family issues at home? etc.). </p>

<p>However, I really dislike when parents call me to INSIST that I write the letter in a certain way or when they are the main point of contact, not the student. I am writing the letter for the student - the student needs to be the one asking for my recommendation, contacting me, and providing the information to me IN THEIR OWN WORDS, not the parents. Worst of all is a parent who keeps bugging me for a copy of the letter before it is sent, and then complains that I didn't manage to include every single thing Johnny has ever said or done. It's impossible to do that in a page or page and a half!</p>

<p>Hope this helps!</p>

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<p>Our school asks both student and teacher to fill out a long questionnaire about the student. But I agree have your child ask the GC what would be most helpful.</p>

<p>My recollection is that each school has a form with stuff for the GC to check and also space for a letter type recommendation. It is my understanding that the GC sends the same letter with the individual schoo forms filled out and stapled to it. Teachers do the same.</p>

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<p>Thanks a lot, mathmom, carolyn and mammall!</p>

<p>Carolyn, that is really great to hear directly from a GC what is preferable and why! Son is a kid who has hardly done any school-related ECs (maybe one?) but has a few non-school ECs on his own (instrument, unique sport [for a while], volunteering). Plus, he had a bad academic year, followed by a very good one.</p>

<p>The thing--our GC has only spoken to son perhaps 3 times in his entire career at HS (once at the behest of teachers who saw he had lots of potential but was refusing to work). Plus, she's a sweet young lady, but has two tiny kids (one a baby) and I get the feeling she just doesn't have the time to go the extra mile (unlike a few other counselors at our school).</p>

<p>One question--during lady GC's maternity leave over a year ago, son had another (really good) counselor whom he liked. He's now back w/lady GC, but really likes other guy (had talked w/him numerous times).</p>

<p>The guy GC is also a licensed psychologist/therapist and seems very insightful. Would it be at all appropriate to ask 'old GC' to do a rec?</p>

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<p>Jocelyn,
First, out of school activities are just as valid as in-school ones. But, teachers and counselors won't know about them unless your son tells them. EC's that don't fit neatly into the standard boxes are also a good example of when sending a supplemental activity resume is an idea to consider (but check with each school first).</p>

<p>In terms of your second question, here are some thoughts:</p>

<p>-- my daughter had a very close relationship with her guidance counselor from 10th through 11th grade. At the start of senior year, that guidance counselor was re-assigned to a different part of the alphabet. My daughter asked her old guidance counselor if she would introduce her to her new guidance counselor, and also give her new counselor her thoughts/impressions about my daughter. Her old counselor did just that, and wrote some highlights about my daughter down for the new counselor to adapt in her letter. The new counselor also talked with my daughter a few times and seemed to get to know her pretty quickly. The new counselor did share a part of what she wrote about my daughter with me, and I must say she captured her perfectly. So, that might be one way for your son to go.</p>

<p>-- Last September, I was called in suddenly to replace a school's counselor. A lot of my students were panicked about their recommendations. I talked it over with our principal and we gave students the choice of either having me write the recommendations for them, asking our principal or dean of students to write them, asking another counselor in the department to write it, or asking a senior year teacher who was not writing their teacher recommendations to write their school recommendation. By the way, I didn't have ANY problems writing letters for the kids who asked me, and they all seemed to do fine in admissions. :)</p>

<p>Of course, I didn't take it personally if kids wanted someone else to do it for them, but here's the important thing to realize: I still was the person that college admissions people called when they had questions about those kids, so it was important that I was in the loop, and had a copy of the other recommendation on hand just in case. There were at least two instances where a student didn't keep me in the loop, and when college reps called me for additional information about the student, I had no clue they had even applied to those schools.</p>

<p>So, tell your son to start with his new counselor, not the old one. You don't want to risk anyone's feelings being hurt and they'll need to coordinate what happens after the recommendations are sent. Also, keep in mind that counselors have a lot of recommendation letters to write- don't be insulted if the old counselor doesn't have time to write the letter itself, but rather just fills in the new counselor. He also may not want to step on the new counselor's toes. It really depends on how the department works to a certain extent.</p>

<p>And, don't be surprised if the high school administration has some issues with the old counselor writing the letter. Remember: once you make an exception for one person, you have to do it for everyone who wants it -- that seems to be a reason why a lot of school administrators are so prickly about making exceptions. </p>

<p>But, it never hurts to ask politely. If the old counselor does write it, make sure to keep the new counselor in the loop. :)</p>

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<p>I agree with Carolyn that it's always best for the student to ask the GC directly, but I think it could actually be helpful to the busy GC who doesn't know your son well if you wrote her a short letter explaining why you suggested to your son that he ask her for the "special" letter rather than the form. I'm sure you will articulate the reasons well, and can perhaps make some gentle suggestions about things she might say that could help your son. </p>

<p>My kids go to a school that will not send out the form, always opting to write a detailed letter instead. I don't know how the GCs could do that without at least some parental insights about their kids. They always solicit this input, and my sense is that a well-considered response can really help them focus on your child's unique qualities. Many 17-year olds wouldn't convey enough information about themselves to complete the picture for the GC, so I think parental input can be really valuable, and possibly be much appreciated by the GC.</p>

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<p>Thanks, carolyn, that is a really great perspective and I appreciate the first-hand knowledge, advice. In our case, I don't think 'old GC' really had an extraordinary insight into son (he's a teen boy, after all, and just not into chatting about goals, feelings, etc.!). But he did see son through a tough year and might have something useful to say. I'll follow your advice and maybe ask for a supplemental letter, if that were not too much trouble and 'main GC' was okay w/it.</p>

<p>FauxNom--I was thinking the same thing---while of course it would look better if son wrote a letter/resume re: himself & activities, not sure he'd completely capture the whole 'turn around' thing he did. But, then, again, maybe he would. I'll likely help him w/letter after he does a draft. </p>

<p>Thanks again!</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Also--would it be appropriate/helpful to gently request that GC mention how son has really had 180 degree turn-around from soph year (bad grades, then...all As now)?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, this is exactly the sort of information that should be in a GC rec. This thread is putting too much emphasis on including EC's. Admission folks really do not want to see a list of a student's activities in the counselor letter. Guidance counselors--especially those who don't know the applicant well (or at all!)--have a tendency to fill up space by saying things like, "Sophie served as president of the Spanish club for two years." Well, that sort of info is already on the application elsewhere. When EC's are mentioned in a counselor rec, it is far more useful to include some evaluative comment, such as, "During her tenure as Spanish Club president, Sophie's amusing recruitment speeches and posters helped to double club membership, and teachers praised her leadership skills."</p>

<p>I suggest that when a student presents a pre-rec letter to the counselor, it should include the major EC's followed by some highlight (e.g., "Was the only sophomore to serve as peer mediator" or "Spearheaded food drive that netted largest donation volume in school history."). Some judicious bragging is fine here.</p>

<p>The student should also include achievements such as the aforementioned one about the transcript 180 or a list of other qualities to emphasize. ("I sit at a different lunch table with different friends almost every day of the week. I don't see many others who break out of their small circle" or "I was tempted to transfer out of Mr. Snodgrass' physics class when I heard of his reputation for being tough, but I stuck it out and was proud of my B+, the second-highest grade in the class.") Counselors are appreciative of this sort of help, as long as it is presented as memory-jogging assistance and not "My way or the highway" instructions. And, in turn, it can help provide admission officials with the insights they seek from a counselor reference (but, too often, never get).</p>

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<p>Thanks, Sally Rubenstone, that's great advice. And, since son doesn't really have a laundry list of ECs (although, as we review, he has more out-of-school ECs than either of us remembered...) the suggestion to include reference to his 'turn around' is very helpful.</p>

<p>Will revise letter today in light of that.</p>

<p>Appreciate it!!</p>

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<p>You're welcome, Jolynne, </p>

<p>And, of course, the same protocol makes sense for teacher recs as well as guidance counselor letters. That is, the student should write the teachers a cover note politely requesting the reference and also providing memory-jogging highlights of the time spent in that teacher's class(es):</p>

<p>e.g.,</p>

<p>*-You asked me to read my *Great Gatsby essay to the entire class</p>

<p>-You submitted my poem to a literary journal</p>

<p>-I tutored Nadine and Harrison for the last month of AP Calculus, per your request**</p>

<p>The list can also include (though not exclusively) non-academic memory-joggers ("I'll never forget our Red Sox/Yankees debates!")</p>

<p>From my own days as a teacher, I've found that special moments that might last a lifetime for a student tended to vaporize pretty quickly for me<a href="even%20though%20I%20was%20young%20then!">/i</a> But, when reminded of them later (even *now ... and it does occasionally happen), they usually come back.</p>

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<p>Great, additional advice, thank you Sally. Son is in the process of requesting recs from teachers this very day (online app at school he really likes just made available). For a computer teacher, he's going to send as an email attachment a project he did on his own this summer in the language that he learned w/her. Hopefully that will help!</p>

<p>Again--thanks!!</p>

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<p>The GC at D's school did the Common App form and a letter. I asked him to include a couple of things in the letter, such as the fact that even though she wanted to, she was not allowed to take AP classes in her junior year because she matriculated 6 weeks into the year and the classes were closed. This was a reasonable piece of information to want mentioned, and he agreed. He was great, and really knew her well. He wrote a wonderful letter which he shared with her. Though she had waived her right to see it (or whatever that's called), he wanted her to know what he thought of her. It was very sweet.</p>

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<p>yeah I'm kind of freaking out about my guidance counselor recc cause my counselor apparently decided to retire this year, and our school/counselor seemed to think it was a great idea to not let on anything about this during or towards the end of the school year. I talked to my counselor at least 3-5 times towards the end of the year about scheduling and such, and not once was it mentioned that she wouldnt even BE here next year (senior year).
I only found out about it because one of my friend's parents is a teacher who knew about it. They only sent a letter about the retirement in early July. </p>

<p>so basically I'm going to have a brand new guidance counselor for senior year who I know nothing about, and who knows nothing about me.
=/</p>

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<p>Do remember that the GC has many, many letters to write for colleges, and he may well get writers block or simply forget something about any given student. So it is important that the student gives the GC a "cheat sheet" of sorts so he can be sure to include all relevant information. Most GCs are grateful to have any kind of help. Ours have always had a sheet that they request the students/parents complete so that they have info at hand when writing the rec. The essays are also helpful as are any additional info not covered on the questionaire.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
so basically I'm going to have a brand new guidance counselor for senior year who I know nothing about, and who knows nothing about me.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>This is an unfortunate situation, but--if it's any consolation--it happens fairly often. Colleges are accustomed to superficial counselor recs that tell them very little other than the fact that the applicant in question is in good standing and "is likely to succeed at the college of his or her choice." Such references certainly don't boost your admission odds, but they're not held against you either.</p>

<p>So ... in order to get a recommendation that actually helps you, it's critical that you provide your new counselor with a tip sheet that lists the strengths and traits you most want touted to colleges and the contributions you've made to your school. I also suggest that you include on this tip sheet a list of "corroborators"--i.e., other people who can verify what you've listed. These could include school administrators, teachers, club advisors, and fellow students--leaders or members of clubs you've belonged to or led, even simply your friends.</p>

<p>It's also possible (albeit unlikely) that your old counselor wrote the senior references before she retired. However, even if she did, she didn't get to do so with the benefit of any input from you and she may have had a "lame duck" attitude while she did them. So you may actually better off if the new counselor will be doing your reference instead, since he or she--being entirely clueless--may be willing to include the salient points you suggest.</p>

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<p>This is all really helpful advice! So good to know how to assist the GCs from those who know what it's like 'inside!'</p>