Guidance schmidance

Parents Forum
1

<p>How much actual help have your kids in public school received from guidance counselors when it comes to college admissions? </p>

<p>Three years ago, when my son was applying to college, I knew that the guidance counselor was well informed about him because he had experienced both health and disciplinary issues in high school. But my daughter, who is applying now, has never had any issues. She is boringly normal.</p>

<p>Today my daughter had her pre-college meeting with her counselor. It consisted primarily of an interview to supplement the information my daughter had supplied on the school's "brag sheet" form, so that the counselor will be able to write an informed-sounding recommendation about a student whose name she would not recognize if it did not appear at the top of the form. The counselor also went over the paperwork and explained how various things are to be submitted. But the counselor did not make any attempt to determine whether my daughter's college choices are realistic for her. She didn't have a copy of my daughter's transcript and she didn't ask for her GPA. For all she knows, my daughter's entire college list (which she also submitted) could consist of schools that are beyond her reach. </p>

<p>I'm really disappointed -- not particularly for my daughter, who knows what she's doing, but for the kids on this counselor's list who don't. Yes, I know that this woman has 250 kids on her roster, but it would have been nice to see some true guidance here.</p>

2

<p>Not much at all. Brag sheet form? I'm pretty sure the GC will have no idea what a brag sheet is, and she sure as heck doesn't have a form. </p>

<p>Son attends a large but not huge public high school. Mix of suburban/rural kids with a smaller portion from the fringe of a small city. The GC has never initiated one session with son or us. She has been responsive to some e-mails, and she's been available to meet with us when we request it -- but basically she's a cipher. She did say in response to one e-mail that she would be meeting one on one with her students towards the end of Junior year to make sure things are on track for graduation and to discuss colleges. Never happened. I have no idea what she's going to be able to say on the GC reports for various schools. </p>

<p>As a mitigating factor, there were some health issues and she was peripherally involved in a local political squabble -- and you know how small-town political squabbles can get. But still, the school itself never stepped into the void to make sure that the Guidance Office as a whole was taking care of things. </p>

<p>In a nut shell, this has been a situation where the student and his/her family needs to take all the initiative. Like Marian, I'm not particularly disappointed for our family (thanks to sites like these), but I'm sure that there are a lot of great kids/families out there who never knew how to start and never got any help from the GC.</p>

3

<p>You don't have brag sheets? I thought they were standard.</p>

<p>A brag sheet is a handout that each senior is required to fill out and give to the guidance counselor. It includes questions such as "What are your most important extracurricular activities?", "What awards have you won, inside or outside school?", and "What are your favorite subjects and why?" </p>

<p>Without this, there would be no hope that the guidance counselor could write a recommendation for the student.</p>

<p>The first time I saw one of these forms, I thought it was a perversion of the system, but now I realize that they are essential.</p>

4

<p>Guidance counselors at my childrens' public high school are dramatically overworked, and most of their time is focused on at-risk kids or glamorous overachievers. Not surprisingly, everyone else gets less than sup-bar attention. </p>

<p>Sad fact is, parents need to be more involved/informed and more pro-active than ever. And of course, that mostly hurts the average kid who cannot rely on parental help and advice.</p>

5

<p>Another large public school parent here - in our "underperforming" Title I school the GC's have 500 students on each caseload. WE are training THEM.
If the student isn't pregnant, on drugs, in danger of expulsion, or on an IEP, the GC has no idea who they are. I can't for the life of me figure out how they fill out these forms! I've been wondering if it is too pushy to go in with my S to meet with them, rather than a 1:1?
While I sympathize that the job is difficult, even the high achieving students need some help sometimes.</p>

6

<p>In my opinion, it isn't too pushy for your son to bring a resume with him, orjr, if your school doesn't have a brag sheet.</p>

<p>I know that some of the kids on CC will say that it's our kids' fault that the GCs don't know them -- that our kids should have made a point of meeting with the GC regularly just to talk about things, so that the GC would have a real long-term acquaintance with them. But given the very serious problems that the GCs have to deal with, these unnecessary meetings would be a real burden on the GC's time. I don't think a kid would make a good impression on the GC by wasting that person's time.</p>

7

<p>I think that when students have their meetings with their GCs, whether or not the GC has given them a brag sheet to fill out, the students should bring in anything that could help the GC: a brag sheet, resume, copies or excellent term papers, newspaper articles about the student-- and should allow the GC to keep that info so the GC can refer to it when writing the reports that most colleges require GCs send for applicants.</p>

<p>Most public school GCs are enormously overworked, especially now that so many students are applying to a large number of colleges. To get the best help from the GC, the student should provide the GC with the info the GC needs, not expect that the GC will have time to find out in advance about the students' activities. The student and their parents also should do some work on their own to figure out what kind of college environment they want and what financial restrictions there are on their college choice.</p>

8

<p>I don't think my son's GC would know him (a rising junior) if she tripped over him in the hall. You'd better believe he is bringing a brag sheet along when they meet the first time.</p>

<p>Her input isn't very important to us anyway, since DS is looking at music schools only and GCs are notoriously unhelpful in that regard. However, I shudder to think what we would do if we actually had to rely on this individual who has hundreds of recommendations to write and knows only a handful of the kids well enough to do that recommendation justice.</p>

9

<p>Marian,</p>

<p>The best term is being "proactive" here. You're sorta sitting back and complaining the GC isn't doing enough. It's a common problem for overextended GC's everywhere in Publics. If your D wants more help, she needs to come by more often, ask about scholarships every couple of weeks and through her own positive actions win the GC attiention over all those other kids with issues. </p>

<p>As far as expecting a GC to tell a student if her college choices are reasonable, it falls into the same category of questions like my answering my wife's question "does this make my ass look fat?" There are some things you just don't do... </p>

<p>IF this GC told your D half her choices were poor..What would you write here? Maybe this GC did this in the past and then had to deal with angry mom or dad calling the principle or school board to yell about the insult? Don't expect something from someone that in telling the truth just brings them headaches. </p>

<p>The main job of the GC for college is to coordinate the HS parts for the application process, not to tell you if your choice is a good one or not. How could they really know? A good GC will make sure the HS's side of things is met prior to deadlines. That's the best help they can give believe me, is just getting the stuff done ontime. Beyond that, hey that's icing.</p>

10

<p>My son's (public) school has a wonderful method in place for high achieving students; rather than the regular GC, they have the Gifted/Talented teacher do the college admissions stuff for all the top students and students in the G/T program. She has known these kids since they were in 7th grade and meets with them at least weekly during their senior year (usually over the lunch hour) to advise them on college issues, help with applications, etc.</p>

11

<p>We went through 4 gcs. 1st one lasted for 2 years. He was very good and retired from our school system.</p>

<h1>2 was only at the school for 1 year. Apparently she had been transferred from 1 hs in our system to ours and then was transferred again at the end of the year.</h1>

<p>It is our "fault" we had #3. D went to the Page School when she worked for Congress and there was a GC on staff.</p>

<h1>4 was new this year. He was okay but didn't know how to deal with unusual cases.</h1>

<p>In terms of college counseling, we do have a college/career counselor at our hs who had been quoted in the Pink Bible (our edition of the USNews Ranking mag). She was off in terms of what were reaches (D got in) and what were matches (D was WL at 2 of them) and came up with some very odd choices for safeties.</p>

<p>I found CC too late to help w/ D's college application process but will stay on it for the subsequent kid.</p>

12

<p>My kids' school is a large, well-known urban academic magnet. The GC's have rosters of about 450 kids @, evenly distributed among classes. Unless a kid has been in some sort of serious academic trouble, or has made a special point of meeting the GC (some do), the GC will have no idea who he or she is prior to the middle of 11th grade. The GC's do pretty much make certain to meet one-on-one with all 11th graders in the spring, and they are amenable to including parents if the scheduling works out. They will also meet with kids one-on-one at the kid's request any time, but they are busy.</p>

<p>Brag sheets are absolutely used, although they have copies of the transcripts of all students on their rosters.</p>

<p>As far as I can tell, the GC's have five functions, in descending order of importance: (1) making certain all school paperwork (including GC rec) is submitted on time to all colleges to which a student is applying, (2) making certain that every student is applying to at least one college that will probably accept him or her (i.e., for 80% of the class a second-tier in-state public college), (3) helping students (many of whom have little or no parental support for this) figure out how to fill out their applications and financial aid paperwork on time, (4) dealing with problems causing a risk of academic failure / failure to complete graduation requirements, (5) disseminating information on scholarships, external competitions, and special programs to which kids may apply, and (6) giving advice about college selection. The demands of 1-4 leave very little time for 5 (which doesn't need much) and 6. Not that they don't try some; they do. They have guides, viewbooks, etc., for students to look at, and they are happy to provide some advice if asked (often encouraging kids to look at LACs, which are not at all popular at this school, and always telling kids not to apply ED because of the need to compare finaid packages, whether or not it exists). But that isn't how they spend the bulk of their time.</p>

<p>Students in the top 20% or so of the class spend little time with their GCs. Basically, they are viewed as easy -- they are going to get into the main campus of the state u in any event, and they will probably do better for themselves, so why worry? The culture of the school tends to make them hyper aware of the admissions process. This group pretty much gets its advice in one of two ways: (1) Self-counselling, sharing information, gossip, and folklore. (2) Faculty or administration mentors (which most of these kids have, and lots of the other kids, too). Often the two combine. My D, who was a very strategic thinker about colleges and a fount of information and statistics, was given semi-formal "office hours" by a vice principal whose cult she was part of to lead an open forum on application strategy for anyone who wanted to come by his office. </p>

<p>When my son finally met with his GC last spring, he presented his tentative strategy and list of schools, and the GC basically said "Sounds great, guess you won't be needing my help, good luck and get me the paperwork as soon as you can." This was not disappointing for S: The GC was right. S is a "star" in their system and has lots of support and guidance from faculty and administrators, as well as parental support. He will get into one of the colleges on his list, and probably more than one, with adequate financial aid. Apart from shepherding paperwork, he's not a good use of the GC's time within that system.</p>

<p>EDIT: I should add that, as far as I know, the GC's have no input into course selection and non-academic discipline, which are handled by separate staffs. The Roster Office has a lot of engagement with students and basically ensures that they are taking the courses they need to graduate, and that educationally ambitious students are encouraged to apply for AP and honors classes. Both my kids had much more extensive relationships with Roster Office people than with their GC.</p>

13

<p>GCs vary even within schools. S1 had a terrific GC who had helped him with course scheduling (as she did with every student on her list). we received a request for a brag sheet which we duly filled out, then had a meeting with the GC. She pulled out his GPA and class rank and mentioned schools that would be a good fit: some reaches, some matches and a couple of safeties. Her predictions panned out perfectly.<br>
A schoolmate of my S got another GC who told her and her parents that she did not know the student well enough to advise on schools. </p>

<p>For students whose GCs are overworked or do not know them, bring a copy of transcript and/or list of classes and grades; a cv (even if it's only a draft as yet); ideas about what sorts of colleges the student is aiming for (LAC, state U, out of state school, mid-size research u; scholarship, etc...) There is a likelihood that the GC will be able to only fill out the school profile and not write a detailed recommendation, but I think colleges are used to such GCs.</p>

14

<p>You have a point, Opie. If my daughter really needs or wants such attention, she should be proactive in seeking it out.</p>

<p>But GCs need to be a little bit proactive, too. My main complaint is that the GC, in the course of this once-in-a-lifetime pre-college meeting, did not address JHS's priority #2, namely "making certain that every student is applying to at least one college that will probably accept him or her." In fact, since the GC did not bother to supply herself with a copy of my daughter's transcript (readily available to her on the school computers but not so readily available to my daughter, who would have to pay for it and wait several days to receive it), she could not possibly make such an assessment. My daughter could be steering herself into an academic iceberg, and this GC would have no idea.</p>

15

<p>Maybe we were just lucky, but our 2 GCs (2Ds had 1 for 4 yrs each and S had 1 for 4 yrs each) were wonderful. Of course, we were very proactive from the get go. We didn't really have any contact with GCs during freshman year, but from sophomore year on, my kids made a point to schedule meetings with them regularly. We felt they really knew our kids, but my kids really worked at getting time from them. Maybe that is the secret. I will admit that the GC for our daughters would have driven our son crazy and our son's GC would not have worked for the girls. We really did luck out. I should add that our hs has maybe 8 GCs and I have heard various complaints about all of them (including the ones we had). They both really worked for our family and we will always be grateful to them. We are a large diverse suburban school and all three of mine were very good students and graduated from or are attending good colleges.</p>

16

<p>I find it very odd that your GC didn't have a copy of your child's transcript. Our GC's in huge suburban comprehensive high school I think do quite well with priorities just about as JHS listed. Each counselor has about 200 students - about 50 seniors a piece. They meet in groups (via English classes) with Juniors in Jan. and go over the basics - then in late spring meet individually with the Juniors and their parents. Our counselor had our son's transcript, had calculated an estimate of his GPA, and was willing to guess at an approximate rank though they apparently don't calculate it at all until the end of the first marking period senior year. She'd used the Naviance software to provide a list of possible schools labeled Target-Reach and Safety-Target based on what we had provided and the standard favorites list at our school. (Cornell was at the top of the list.) I thought the safety list was a little weird, but at least it included RPI. It also had Carnegie-Mellon which I think is more of a match than a safety. But I might be wrong as my son's SAT scores are much higher than previous kids accepted from our high school. (Grades though are a teensy tiny bit lower.) </p>

<p>The school also organizes an evening college night with eight sessions of which you can attend two, and another evening devoted to financial aid. Parents really have no excuse to be clueless. Our GC is also involved in course selection - though mostly this is just facilitating whatever the kid wants. </p>

<p>As one might expect, ome counselors are reputed to be better than others. One in particular the "in" parents ask for. We got a terrible GC freshman year - we did the happy dance when she retired. The new one seems to have settled in pretty well. I think we were lucky that my son's high PSAT scores when she was brand new made her remember him. My main gripe is that she persists in calling MIT an Ivy League school!</p>

17

<p>mathmom, people at your kids' school can ASK for a particular counselor???</p>

<p>What ever happened to alphabetical order? At the schools I know, your counselor assignment depends on what letter your last name starts with. Period.</p>

<p>My daughter's school does have group meetings, and they are very informative (at least for those parents who speak English, which is not everyone). However, the meeting today was the only required one-on-one meeting in the entire process. </p>

<p>I'm not worried for my daughter. She knows what she's doing, and so do I. I started this thread mostly to warn people that if your kid has made unrealistic college choices, you shouldn't expect a public school GC to straighten things out. It may not happen.</p>

18

<p>That's true, Marian. One of my D's friends, a highly ranked student with pretty good SATs (but <1500), decided to apply only to two ultraselective colleges (one Ivy, one tip-top LAC). She didn't get into either. Her GC did tell her she should be applying somewhere else, too, but didn't really follow up on it or enforce it. There was no lack of people telling her she was being stupid, though; her friends tore their hair out, and when the administrators became aware of what was happening they offered to try to arrange a late application somewhere. Her parents, however, were even more clueless than she was, and supported her holding fast to her dream. Basically, no one at the school had any experience with a "top" kid who refused to apply to any kind of safety school. (After a gap year, and a more realistic round of applications, she will be attending a good but meaningfully less selective LAC this year.)</p>

19

<p>GCs can only advise; they cannot force anyone to apply to some schools if they don't want to. The girl and the parents did not lack in GC advice; they lacked in common sense.</p>

20

<p>Well, in my kids' former private school, the GC would have waged a campaign to educate the parents and the kid starting in 11th grade, and (I believe) would ultimately have locked all three of them in a room and not let them out until the student had completed a good-faith application to a school the GC believed was an adequate safety. I think the public school GC probably thought she would be accepted by one of her schools (various classmates with not dissimilar characteristics were, which may have been part of the problem), and the GC was used to kids in that position doing a fine job taking care of themselves. If anything, the kids tend to err on the side of caution; many submit only "safe" applications.</p>