<p>esmitty: I can claim the statistical decrease is not evidence for 2 reasons: 1) a decrease is not in and of itself significant statistical evidence unless you do a p- or t-test and show that the decrease is significant in a rigorously statistical sense, and 2) because you and the site both neglected confounding factors, a major one (the coke usage decrease and attendant organized crime decrease in Florida) I pointed out to you. Correlation is not always causation.</p>
<p>“You can’t defend yourself with a handgun against a sawed off shotgun esmitty. But with tear gas, a whistle, honking your car horn, screaming for help, and a variety of martial art maneuvers you might be able to. But first, you would talk to him.
You may just be able to hand him you wallet or car keys and walk away.”</p>
<p>Ha. I definately can. You obviously have never been in the situation. People use handguns everyday to defend themselves. That stat was posted on the first page.</p>
<p>"An additional alternative to a gun is a hat pin. "</p>
<p>your either joking or sadly mistaken, or both.</p>
<p>I love how you argue without giving facts that have links… 
</p>
<p>and thx btw on the spaling theng. Ill git rigt on dat.</p>
<p>
This is quite likely true, and highlights the fact that if you want to carry a gun, you better be both physically able and mentally ready to use it. The time to determine that you forgot where the safety is or to question the morality of shooting another human being is NOT after you have shown your weapon. That hesitation will get you killed. If you aren’t sure you can use it, don’t carry it.</p>
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</p>
<p>And thats fine - but why would you deprive someone else of that choice?</p>
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<p>Can you post that data?</p>
<p>Also, it seems like you are saying that if you just give in to whatever the robber, etc. wants, they will leave you alone. That doesn’t seem to play out well in these mass shootings where the shooter simply shoots indiscriminantly at anyone. What this type of person wants is simply to kill you - do you want to just give them that and hope that they go away? :rolleyes:</p>
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<p>Let’s see some data (and not the flawed Kellerman study)…</p>
<p>Kbaloney, I hope you are using a lot of sarcasm there. If so just put /sarcasm at the end so the rest of us can tell.</p>
<p>1of42, that is true, there have been established correlations in the majority of states with widespread CCW. This does not mean that CCW is the primary factor. However, it is more evidence for than against CCW. Saying that “CCW causes a decrease in violent crime” may, or may not be true. Saying that “states that have introduced “shall issue” CCW laws usually saw a reduction in violent crime” is true. It is possible that other factors may be responsible, such as new LE policies. On the other hand, I do not recall any argument against CCW other than “everybody will be shooting each other,” which has simply not happened.</p>
<p>esmitty01
AMom2, they do. Self defense classes teach no firearms. There are many techniques to defend oneself without guns."</p>
<p>Right, try to defend yourself against someone with a sawed off shotty with your fists. see how that works out.</p>
<p>“Contrary to the data posted earlier, more people are killed with their own guns.”
got a link for that one?</p>
<p>Please go back and see my orginal post. I think it’s a good idea to learn how to use a firearm and to defend oneself both with or without a gun. I grew up with guns, because we have a lot of snakes where I live.</p>
<p>Wow! What a great idea. Not!</p>
<p>A student where my H teaches recently had a gun pulled on him in his dorm room. Gee, the idea of even more students having guns makes me jump with joy. Not!</p>
<p>Me, I’m staying away from Alabama universities.</p>
<p>More lunacy:
"SALT LAKE CITY, Utah (CNN) – The senior at the University of Utah gets dressed and then decides which gun is easiest to conceal under his clothes.</p>
<p>If he’s wearing a T-shirt, he’ll take a smaller, low-profile gun to class. If he’s wearing a coat, he may carry a different weapon, he said.</p>
<p>He started carrying a gun to class after the massacre at Virginia Tech, but the student says he’s not part of the problem of campus shootings and could instead be part of a solution.</p>
<p>Nick, who asked not to be fully identified so his fellow students wouldn’t know he carried a gun, says he has had a concealed weapons permit for more than three years. But it was Seung-Hui Cho’s murderous campus rampage that made him take a gun to class.</p>
<p>"Last year, after Virginia Tech, I thought ‘I’m not going to be a victim,’ " Nick said.</p>
<p>“My first thought was ‘how tragic.’ But then I couldn’t help but think it could’ve been different if they’d allowed the students the right to protect themselves.”</p>
<p>Days after another campus shooting – in which five students and the gunman died at Northern Illinois University – students at colleges in Utah, the only state to allow weapons at all public universities, are attending classes…"
[Utah</a> students hide guns, head to class - CNN.com](<a href=“http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/20/cnnu.guns/index.html]Utah”>http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/02/20/cnnu.guns/index.html)</p>
<p>Scared? Not really. My campus is full of students who have taken hand-to-hand combat, our security system is pretty good, the campus is rather secluded, and we have patrolling guards with M9 pistols and M4 carbines. Many of us await the day when we can stop evil in its tracks (usually with a 500lb precision guided munition). It is a military school on a military base.</p>
<p>So, if I am not terribly scared, what am I? I’ll tell you. I am angry and I am sad. I am angry that responsible people want to protect themselves and others, but are denied that ability. I am sad that so many people are afraid of those who go through extensive and often expensive legal processes to do something legally, when they could easily break the law and do the same thing without anyone ever knowing. I am sad and angry that someone slipped through the cracks of society, walked into a lecture hall and killed unsuspecting students, without resistance. I am sad that he was not stopped sooner. More than any of the above emotions, I am heartbroken that one of my friends was among those students murdered.</p>
<p>Please read this article: [Marine</a> Corps Moms: ON SHEEP, WOLVES, AND SHEEPDOGS](<a href=“http://marinecorpsmoms.com/archives/2004/08/on_sheep_wolves_and_sheepdogs.html]Marine”>http://marinecorpsmoms.com/archives/2004/08/on_sheep_wolves_and_sheepdogs.html)
I don’t want the sheepdogs to be leashed.</p>
<p>EDIT: Northstarmom, why do you think those who want to protect themselves or even become “part of the solution” are insane? Is it because they choose the tool best suited to quickly stopping an attacker? Is it because they took the time and effort to do so legally? Is it because they prepare for the “worst case scenario?”</p>
<p>lunacy? right… How is that lunacy. Thats common sense. The kid has a right to protect himself.</p>
<p>" Northstarmom, why do you think those who want to protect themselves or even become “part of the solution” are insane? Is it because they choose the tool best suited to quickly stopping an attacker? Is it because they took the time and effort to do so legally? Is it because they prepare for the “worst case scenario?”</p>
<p>It’s because of things like this:</p>
<p>"People who live in communities with a lot of guns are more likely to kill themselves, a new study says.</p>
<p>The findings, the researchers say, add weight to the argument that when people have less access to guns, they are less likely to commit suicide. Earlier research raised the question of whether people intent on suicide would simply switch to another equally lethal method if unable to find a gun.</p>
<p>In the new report, in the current issue of The Journal of Trauma, researchers from the Harvard School of Public Health said they had found evidence that “the ready availability of firearms is likely to have the greatest effect on suicide rates in groups characterized by more impulsive behavior.” <a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/health/17risk.html[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/17/health/17risk.html</a></p>
<p>“A gun is the weapon most commonly used in domestic homicides. In fact, more than three times as many women are murdered by guns used by their husbands or intimate acquaintances than are killed by strangers’ guns, knives or other weapons combined…”
[The</a> Facts on Guns and Domestic Violence](<a href=“http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:Q20ftmA1Gr0J:www.endabuse.org/resources/facts/Guns.pdf+domestic+violence+guns&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=safari]The”>http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:Q20ftmA1Gr0J:www.endabuse.org/resources/facts/Guns.pdf+domestic+violence+guns&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us&client=safari)</p>
<p>“According to the FBI, thirty-three percent of women who are murdered with firearms are killed by an intimate partner.1 Households with guns are eight times more likely to have a firearm homicide at the hands of a family member or intimate acquaintance than homes without guns, and the risk of gun-related domestic homicide is much higher if there is a history of domestic violence” [Brady</a> Campaign - Domestic Violence and Guns](<a href=“http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/reports/?page=domvio]Brady”>http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/reports/?page=domvio)</p>
<p>And because a couple of years ago, one of my husband’s star students was shot to death by a roommate who was a platonic friend who apparently had a crush on her. The roommate, also a college student, then killed himself. There was no indication that he had a history that would have prevented his obtaining a gun legally.</p>
<p>I think that there are many more deaths that occur due to normally balanced people having easy access to guns, and then turning those guns on themselvs or others when they become enraged or despondent than there are deaths prevented by people using guns against those attempting to harm them. </p>
<p>For instance, think about the many incidents of police using guns to kill themselves or their spouses. </p>
<p>“The authors reviewed death certificates of the 668 active New York City police officers who died from 1977 through 1996. Of those, 80 were suicides, with a median age of 33 years. Almost 94 percent of the suicides used a firearm;” [NYC</a> Police Less Likely To Commit Suicide Than NYC Citizens, New York Weill Cornell Study Shows - New York Presbyterian Hospital](<a href=“http://www.nyp.org/news/hospital/nypd-suicide-myth.html]NYC”>http://www.nyp.org/news/hospital/nypd-suicide-myth.html)</p>
<p>“When Tacoma police Chief David Brame shot his battered wife to death, police officials dismissed the murder-suicide as an aberration. It was not. The Post-Intelligencer has turned up dozens of cases of officers being accused of domestic violence.” [Seattle</a> Post-Intelligencer: Badge of Dishonor](<a href=“http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/police/]Seattle”>http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/police/)</p>
<p>Northstarmom just made, in a very comprehensive way, the point I tried to make earlier. I feel like ready and easy access to firearms has a very high cost. Yes, a truly hardened criminal will get a gun if he/she wants to, restrictions aside. But I think a lot of tragic things happen because relatively normal people do something stupid, and having guns easily accessible makes it so much worse.</p>
<p>Food for though: how many people here know where to buy an illegal gun if they want one? I bet very few. And while people like those who post here probably make up a small number of those who end up using guns for illegal uses, they certainly make up some percentage, and that is a percentage that is a) easy to get rid of, and b) (my opinion) is a larger number than the amounts that defend themselves successfully because of owning a firearm.</p>
<p>The first item discussed in my briefings about the Law of Armed Conflict is that every person has the inherent right to self defense. I believe this right to apply universally, to every human. Obviously, current politics limit what a person can access to exercise that right. </p>
<p>Students for Concealed Carry on Campus (the group most actively promoting campus carry) advocates that people already entrusted by our government to be responsible with firearms be allowed to exercise the right to defend themselves at school. These people comprise one of the safest segments of society.</p>
<p>I used to be afraid of people with concealed firearms. Then, I drove back to college from a competetive event with one such person. I was rather shocked when he pulled a holster containing a 9mm pistol out of a locked compartment and put it on. I didn’t know how to respond. The other passenger in the car made a comment, and we struck up a discussion. The driver of that car carries because he wants to be able to end a life-threatening situation, and because he has a right to do so. I thought this was a rather extreme preparation for an unlikely scenario…until I realized that mass shootings, random muggings, murders, and such actually happen to people. Most of us play the numbers and win. That “worst case scenario” will thankfully never happen to most of us…But what if the man who robbed my neighbor’s house accidentally came into their room? What if he wasn’t there to just snatch a purse? I mentally made a couple notes about “what ifs” that happened to people I know. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, last week, one of those extreme and highly unlikely “what ifs” happened to a friend of mine. I played the statistics game before the names were released. I had 7 friends going to NIU. Over 25,000 students are enrolled at NIU. There were only 168 students in the class, so what were the odds that one of my friens was there? Even then, only twenty-some students were even injured. Among then, five were killed. What are the odds that one of my 7 friends were among the 5 killed at a school of 25,000? I didn’t calculate the exact number, but I felt safe in assuming the numbers would work out in my friends’ favor. I was deeply hurt when I found out that chance hadn’t been so kind, and I had lost a friend. </p>
<p>The fact that Illinois prohibits civilians from carrying firearms anywhere crossed my mind about a half hour later. I pushed it aside because I felt that politics had no place in that moment. The next day, I read news reports of people calling for stricter gun laws. I thought, “That ****** already broke a bunch of gun laws, then murdered my friend! What good would another law have done?..and what the <strong><em>! These people capitalizing on my friend’s death for political gain." I eventually realized that people want to prevent the same kind of thing from occuring again, and politics has a large say in those kinds of changes. My idea was "I wish (my friend with the concealed carry permit) had been there to stop that </em></strong>*!” I wish someone would have fought back. I’ll never know, had there been an armed citizen there, if my friend would still be here. I realize that the armed citizens among us are few and far between, and that even the best-prepared citizen can not save everyone…but I wish someone had the chance to be that person. I hope that if I am ever confronted with such a situation, that I will be ready and able to be “part of the solution” rather than a horrified bystander.</p>
<p>We all want the same thing: to be safe from murderers. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence that CCW holders can do good things in horrible situations. They could be “part of the solution.” It is not a “great” solution, but it may be a component of a “good” solution. We let these people be a component in regular society, so why not let them do the same thing at schools? I think it is because we fear the “sheepdogs” of society. Firearms strike fear into the hearts of many people, because they are capable of great and terrible things. Whether they actually play a part in great things, like protecting innocent people, or terrible things depends on whether the “sheepdog” or the “wolf” uses them.</p>
<p>(Sorry for the double post, but it took a while to write and review the last one)
It is not surprising that many successful suicides and homicides in gun owning homes use guns. They are the most effective means…</p>
<p>This is a link discussing Defensive Gun Uses (there is a very long thread on the subject on CC as well). This specific article uses the high-end. Most estimates find between 700,000 and 2.5million DGUs annually.
[GunCite-Gun</a> Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense?](<a href=“http://guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html]GunCite-Gun”>GunCite-Gun Control-How Often Are Guns Used in Self-Defense?)</p>
<p>This has a simple graph that includes handgun supply and suicide rates. [Guncite:</a> Gun Supply](<a href=“http://guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvsupp.html]Guncite:”>Guncite: Gun Supply)
Interrestingly, there is little correlation…much less causation.</p>
<p>More reasons why I don’t like the idea of even more people having guns:</p>
<p>Two-year-old daughter of one of my H’s classmates shot her mother to death after finding a loaded gun in the parents’ night table.</p>
<p>H’s cousin committed suicide by shooting himself in the head while talking to his mother on the telephone.</p>
<p>Former mentee of mine was convicted of manslaughter after, when his friend was insulted at a party, my mentee and his friend drove to get a gun and then shot up the outside of the house where the party was being held. A 16-year-old playing video games was killed. My mentee had no prior criminal record, had attended a competitive, academic high school, was getting good grades in college, and I had always found him to be quiet, thoughtful and respectful.</p>
<p>Oh, I also know some whose 13-year-old brother was shot to death in a dispute over a glass of water.</p>
<p>The number of people whom I know who have used a gun to prevent harm to themselves, their family or property? 0.</p>
<p>Curious about others’ experiences. Anyone else know people who killed themselves with guns or used guns to harm others? Anyone know people whose lives were saved by their own defensive use of guns?</p>
<p>Are we arguing with personal anecdotes to prove or disprove 13 major studies?</p>
<p>I lived in Illinois for most of my life. With the state’s laws, DGUs are vastly reduced, as no one but law enforcement and politicians can carry outside of their property. </p>
<p>I am not aware of anyone amongst my aquaintences who has personally used a firearm against another person, outside of war. I guess it goes prove that my friends are not convicted felons. I don’t see how it proves anything else.</p>
<p>I’m sorry for your experiences. All of those crimes seem senseless and idiotic to me…as do all homicides and suicides. They are all tragedies.</p>
<p>"Another question you should be asking NSM is “Do you know anyone who was confronted by a criminal with a gun, didn’t have one for protection, and walked away from the situation unharmed?”</p>
<p>Great question. I know at least one person like that. She was confronted by a gunman on a college campus as she walked to her car from the library. All she lost was her bookbag and purse. I shudder to think about what would have happened if she had tried to reach for a gun.</p>
<p>I also am amazed at how many people apparently think that having a gun will help you if someone pulls a gun on you. It’s not as if there’s time then for you to pull out your gun. That kind of thing only works in westerns and fictional shows about the police.</p>
<p>Northstarmom, have to agree!–and what if my student is sitting in a lecture hall with other students that are armed (and the professor as well) and someone enters the classroom apparently looking shady. Are the students going to presume that their lives are in danger and draw their weapons? We are talking about, for the most part, 18-21 years olds. Will that gun permit ensure that they have had proper instruction to operate those guns much less make rational decisions before drawing those guns? I am very concerned about this issue and I can tell you that I don’t want my student in a university setting where everyone can have the option of being “armed”. I am more than happy to leave that to the professionals (trained security). Further, I would like to see more effort on college admissions as well as teachers writing recs for student apps make better evaluative choices. Most of the violence that has occurred on college campuses has come from students with a history of mental illness/instability. As we all know, college can bring on a lot of stress as well. I am hopeful that the legislature in the State of Alabama (as well as other states) will not jump on this as a quick fix to a problem that obviously needs much further discussion. And, in the mean time, colleges are addressing what they can do to provide safer environments for students–here’s hoping that more are willing to consider trained security (more!), a look at admissions practices, more support for students w/mental health issues as well as immediate notification when violence occurs on campuses, among other things. Guns are not going to solve the problem of violence on our college campuses–it is going to take far more than that!</p>
<p>Even perhaps more likely, what if a student is sitting in a lecture hall with other students that are armed (and the professor as well) and one of the armed students “cracks” and pulls his/her weapon – will all of the other armed students pull their weapons? Some of you seem to be assuming this situation then gets diffused without a bloodbath – I would worry that the situation would be more likely to escalate.</p>
<p>And most importantly, how does one concentrate on learning when you have to keep one eye on your fellow classmates possibly drawing their weapon?</p>
<p>I think I would prefer to have to go through a security check point like at an airport to get onto a college campus than to live among alot of students carrying guns.</p>