<p>Philosophy is supposed to be very rigorous at Cal. In addition, according to the career</a> center surveys, only one philosophy major reported admission to a JD program (to UCLA law). On the other hand, political science seems to be a relative law school feeder, with students gaining admission to Harvard and Yale. Haas kids also got into Harvard and Duke.</p>
<p>Poli Sci sent more students to law school than philosophy did, even when accounting for the size of their respective programs. Haas saw less students going to law school, but we would expect less interest, whereas Poli Sci and Philosophy are common pre-law majors.</p>
<p>Obviously, this data is unreliable, and self-selection plays a huge role. However it raises this question: is it unwise to major in philosophy at Berkeley, if one seeks admission to HYSC Law schools?</p>
<p>I'm asking this because I'm trying to decide on a major, and I want to take in all available info/opinions. If I decided that law school was for me, I would much rather major in philosophy. In fact, I would major in philosophy just because it seems so interesting. However, if that program is known to kill GPAs, I'd opt for Haas instead.</p>
<p>Major in philosophy if that’s what you really want. It’s not as hard as it seems. The reason people don’t end up doing well is that after coming out of high school (which they did really well in), they are overconfident and believe that they are much smarter than they actually are. </p>
<p>It is a good pre-law major. It helps a lot of the LSAT, more so than Pol Sci or Haas. </p>
<p>Keep in mind though, that both Pol Sci and Haas are legit at Berkeley. I majored in Pol Sci, got a 171 on the LSAT, and got accepted to NYU, Michigan, Berkeley, and Duke. (I’m at NYU now- it’s ranked 6th). I’m going to eventually be a corporate lawyer.</p>
<p>Congrats, that’s great
Poli Sci and Haas are definitely legit, I wouldn’t doubt that. I just think that philosophy would be much more interesting to me. I was only concerned because someone mentioned that the philosophy department “doesn’t give As”, and that claim was slightly reinforced when I checked the career center surveys. While harsh grading would probably help my LSAT score, I’m not sure if a low GPA could make up for that. I’m willing to work hard to keep 3.9+, so hopefully that’s as possible with philosophy as it is with Haas/poli sci. (otoh I would never expect that GPA from math or physics, for example)</p>
<p>If anyone knows about the grading practices of the philosophy department, please post. In addition, if the grades are customarily harsh, how much leeway is given by law schools? (unfortunately, I would guess none…)</p>
<p>I would like to know the answer to the above question as well. Just how much does law school admissions at HYSC take into account the school and major of an applicant in relation to grades? </p>
<p>I’m facing the same dilemma as caltanner, although I’m probably going to major in philosophy anyway because it’s what I am most interested in. I can, however, contribute that most law schools place LSAT score at slightly higher regard than GPA, perhaps because LSAT is produced by a standardized test and GPA is not. Philosophy majors are widely rumoured to score well above average on the LSAT.</p>
<p>Almost zero. No law school is going to parse thru the data by major by college. To grad/professional schools, a Cal L&S grad is a Cal L&S grad. (Check out the law school forum on cc.) Unless you can ace your courses, HYSC will not care. Essentially, you need a 3.8 to be competitive if you are unhooked. And since Cal’s mean philosophy gpa is a ~3.4…</p>
<p>Note Caltanner, that top law schools frown upon undergrad biz. They much prefer a true liberal arts degree, as opposed to one that is considered ‘vocational’ in nature.</p>
<p>I don’t agree that law schools prefer a liberal arts degree over a business degree. My law school classmates were all over the map when it came to majors. My good friend was in Haas and went to Harvard. My law school roommate was an engineering major from UCLA. In fact, I would argue that the more technical or analytical your major, the better you will do in law school. But at the end of the day, all that matters is that you have good scores. If you are shooting for a top 5 law school, you are going to need 3.8 minimum and a 170 or above lsat (99th percentile) to be competitive. At that level, you either have the smarts, or you don’t, plain and simple.</p>
<p>I can totally understand why philosophy has a lower gpa average. Philosophy is pure thought, in many ways. You can bs your way around poli sci, and if you’re a decent writer and you work hard and regurgitate materials, you can get a high gpa. But that doesn’t mean your smart, and your lsat scores will show that (a few months of hard preparation will not get you to the 99th percentile unless you’ve just got the smarts). In philosophy, you’ve only got your ideas to stand on. So in some ways, the gpa average in phil. is, I think, more indicative of a person’s natural smarts. And if you think you’ve got what it takes, you should go for it. It will help your reasoning abilities immensely, not only for the lsat but also for law school studies.</p>
<p>I remember my civil procedure professor stating one time that the 2 majors that historically performed the best in law school were…Math and Philosophy.</p>
<p>[TaxProf</a> Blog: Physics/Math, Economics Majors Ace the LSAT; Criminal Justice, Prelaw Majors Bomb the Test](<a href=“TaxProf Blog”>TaxProf Blog)</p>
<p>Out of 29 major categories, the five major categories that scored highest on the LSAT in 2008-2009 were physics/math, economics, philosophy/theology, international relations, and engineering. The five major categories that scored lowest on the LSAT were education, business administration, health professions, prelaw, and criminal justice.</p>
<p>English was eleventh and political science was sixteenth.</p>
<p>As far as “vocational” majors go, note that they include the lowest ten major categories in terms of LSAT score.</p>
<p>That is what former Law School adcoms and counselors write in books that they sell. (Yes, engineers do get a little break.)</p>
<p>Again, check out the LS forum on cc.</p>
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<p>IMO, a 3.4 is ‘low’ for a hume/lit major. It is barely about average for the campus, which includes all of the science majors and engineers who tend to get hammered in the first two years of grades. I would guess that Poli Sci (and languages and ‘Studies’) are much higher than Philosophy at Cal.</p>
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<p>Of course, there is a lot of self-selection in such data. Kinda like music majors have the highest admissions rate to med school. Correlation does not equal causation. :)</p>
<p>Perhaps Haas business shouldn’t be lumped with most business programs? Regardless, no matter what I do in life, I would rather study philosophy for undergrad. I just can’t accept the fact that getting an MBA would almost perfectly repeat my BS. Wouldn’t it bother you too?</p>
<p>For me, both law and finance are on the table, so hopefully philosophy would work if I eventually decide on banking… I’m trying to cover the most ground with my major since I don’t exactly know what I want in the future.</p>
<p>Oh and bluebayou, you never revealed where your 3.4 data came from</p>
<p>Most likely true, yes, since “most” business programs includes the thousands of grads from the Cal State programs every year.</p>
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<p>Then study it. Cal Philosophy is awesome. But just know that it will likely result in a gpa hit which is not good for law schools.</p>
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<p>Yup, which is why I recommend a liberal arts degree for undergrad. Econ is usually the liberal arts fall back. (Look at it this way, of the top xx Unis, only a few even offer an undergrad biz major.) </p>
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<p>1) Recent article (google is your friend). 2) The campus gpa by Year is available on UC Statfinder. (It requires some interpolation, but mean gpa of Cal grads seems to be hovering between 3.35-3.40.)</p>
<p>I think philosophy would most definitely work for banking. I’ve met several bankers/analysts who were philosophy majors (very bright guys).</p>
<p>I guess what I’m trying to say is you should pick a major that is analytically rigorous. Haas can be very rigorous and technical if you choose the right courses. Of course, if you’re just taking marketing and human factor classes, you’re not going to get the same analytical rigor as a corporate finance class. But you can make bus. ad. as rigorous as you want.</p>
<p>I know grades and lsat scores are important. But seeing the larger picture, college is a time where you really want to bulk up your intellectual chops for the future. Its going to be your last best chance at really refining your analytical abilities that will serve you for the rest of your life. You can waste it away by taking mickey mouse classes to boost your gpa, or you can really challenge yourself and rise to meet it and really develop intellectual skills that will serve you well in law school or business school. Its hard work, but it will pay off. Spending 6 months to a year preparing for the lsat does not compare with 3 yrs of developing those skills in an analytically rigorous major.</p>
<p>My 2 cents. Good luck with whatever you choose to do.</p>
<p>Thanks guys. I think I’ll go with “what I want to study”, regardless of GPA hit. My logic: a more rigorous/passionate education now will be more advantageous than a cream-puff GPA in the long run, even when accounting for short-term disadvantages with regards to recruiting / law school admissions. If anyone disagrees, feel free to say so.</p>
<p>Hi ucb
I don’t really understand. Yes, they are relevant to finance, but I’d rather study philosophy. Were you suggesting they would be good alternatives to Haas?</p>
<p>i’d say do philosophy
sadly, the philosophy majors at cal arn’t as successful because in general the student body is weaker. the high-achievers are more clustered in econ, business, poli-sci. i took a random phil upper-div class and easily got a good grade
the class was really interesting too, you won’t regret choosing phil as your major. at the end of the day one major isnt gonna make you less intelligent, which is what law basically is.
-business major</p>
<p>The idea that one major better prepares someone for the LSAT is bogus, especially at Cal.</p>
<p>I got a 171 on the lsat but majored in Pol Sci. I have Pol Sci major friends who are at Harvard, Columbia, Berkeley, Duke, and Michigan Law.</p>
<p>Pol Sci in general may be a subject that isn’t intellectually challenging, but that is not true at Cal. Some of the political theory, international relations, game theory (in American Politics courses), were definitely challenging and interesting.</p>