Harvard and Brown

Parents Forum
1

<p>Hi parents, I've received lots of great advice from you in the past! I know that it's a bit early to start hardcore decision making, but I've always been a person to worry about things faaar in advance.</p>

<p>The reason why I'm not posting this in a school forum is that I've already searched for "harvard vs. brown" threads, and they tend to be full of stereotypes/school bashing/bias. It would be nice to get a somewhat more objective, balanced viewpoint with with a look to the future as well as the overall experience of attending each school.</p>

<p>I'm not sure what I'm going to major in. My tentative plan is a lib arts degree like Sociology or English, combined with a minor or double major in something like Econ. In that respect, Brown is a lot better for doing multiple majors since it has no core and no required thesis to do a double major/joint concentration.</p>

<p>I'm equally unsure about what I want to do with my life. Journalism is a possibility, though with the way the newspaper industry is teetering on death (maybe I exagerate) and magazines using mostly freelance writers, I'm not sure I can deal with that kind of uncertainty. </p>

<p>Any thoughts on how many points to assign to prestige? I've been acting like I'll be attending Harvard, putting it on my resume, telling people I'm going, etc. for a couple of months now, so it's strange thinking now about Brown. Sort of unrelated, but I hate how some people have just been like, "Brown will make your decision harder? Pffft."</p>

2

<p>Don't you think you should wait until you get in?</p>

3

<p>If at all possible, you should visit both schools, do an overnight, sit in on classes, talk to students, etc. They're both excellent schools and my opinion is that it comes down to personal preference.</p>

4

<p>I did get in! I got a likely letter from Brown.</p>

<p>Cards4Life: Um, I've never heard of a likely letter recipient getting rejected with the official admissions decision. The letter itself was fairly explicit that I would be getting an official acceptance soon.</p>

5

<p>Likely Letter =/= Acceptance.</p>

<p>not always.</p>

6

<p>Here's a huge overgeneralization, but I think it has some basis in fact:</p>

<p>People who are at Brown love being at Brown.</p>

<p>People who are at Harvard love the fact that they're at Harvard.</p>

<p>There is a subtle difference.</p>

<p>Brown is known for the high quality of most aspects of its undergraduate experience. It is an undergraduate-focused place, and it gives undergraduates great freedom to design their own programs. About the only areas in which Brown does not excel are those that require the spending of large amounts of money. Brown doesn't have large amounts of money. So its dorms and some other facilities are a bit shabby. If you go to Brown, you will be in the company of a very interesting variety of people -- they are all excellent students, and many of them are fascinating people who were attracted to Brown because it offers the freedom for them to do exactly what they want to do.</p>

<p>Harvard is known for being Harvard. In my opinion, its greatest asset is the extraordinary people that its extraordinary reputation attracts. If you go to Harvard, you will be in the company of the future leaders of everything. But the Harvard undergraduate experience has come in for some criticism. Harvard has been accused of focusing too heavily on its graduate and professional students and not paying enough attention to its undergrads. </p>

<p>As for prestige, if you go to Brown, whenever you tell people that you go to Brown, they will smile and say, "Oh, you're so lucky. I've heard that's a great place." If you go to Harvard, whenever you tell people that you go to Harvard, their eyes will bug out. </p>

<p>It all depends on what you want.</p>

7

<p>Lingbo, again congrats on Brown. Cards4Life, I have seen her likely letter from Brown and she is in. Nobody gets a letter like that which informs them that they will be accepted and then not get accepted. </p>

<p>I think Marian's post is very valid. I think it is hard in your situation as you have had the Harvard acceptance in hand for months and have psychologically had in mind that you will be attending. Now, with this acceptance, you are rightfully weighing your options. It is a big decision, though one where you can't truly go wrong. Congrats on having such fine options.</p>

<p>It is truly a matter of fit at this point as to which school meets your personal criteria and which one just feels right for you. I strongly encourage you to find a way to attend the accepted student events at both campuses (which are an hour apart). I know my D did that and in fact, made her decision to attend Brown right on campus at the conclusion of ADOCH (the two day accepted event/overnight). </p>

<p>I also encourage you to email and ideally meet in person with students in the activities in which you are interested. For instance, meet with the newspaper staff or editors at both schools. My D's close friend is an editor at The Brown Daily. Try to get an up close and personal look at the various aspects of the college that mean the most to you. Meet the students. Talk to random kids about their experiences. Both schools are great and so examine the differences and also the general feel for you. Yes, the curriculums are different, a consideration to take into account. Boston is better than Providence but both are fun places to go to school. Harvard has residential colleges, Brown doesn't. Brown seems more undergraduate centered. Visit the departments you are thinking of focusing on. Some of it will come down to gut feelings during the overnight visits and meetings and events. At that point, go with your gut. Before the visits, brainstorm a list of pros/cons of each school or what is appealing and sometimes that is clearer on paper for you. At this point, the accepted student events would truly help you to decide. Good luck and may you never have any problems worse than this :D .</p>

8

<p>Tricky decision. I went to Harvard, but I posted elsewhere that if I had it to do over again, I might well go to Brown. I like the idea of taking courses as RISD and I like the open curriculum. But that's for me. I agree, visit both (even again if you've already been.) I loved Harvard's residential college system. I felt I didn't take advantage of Harvard's great ECs. I didn't see as much of Boston as I might have because the truth is, there was always plenty to do on campus. </p>

<p>I don't think you can go wrong at either place though.</p>

9

<p>I don't have much to add, although I think Marian and soozie may be giving Harvard a little short shrift. Basically, this may be the lowest-risk decision you ever make. They are both great schools, people love being at both of them, the students are super-great at both, their similarities far, far outweigh their differences. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.</p>

<p>I would put it this way: Harvard, in the world of higher education, is pretty much the equivalent of Wall Street and the City of London in the financial world. That is, it's the center of the world, and everybody is conscious of that all the time. It's got the biggest, glitziest opportunities, the Most Important Projects, the most Famous People. It attracts people who are attracted to that, so it can be very competitive and a little anxious, but thrilling. Not that everyone there is competitive and/or anxious -- they aren't, or not completely -- but those qualities are much more in the air than at Brown. Even students who don't have a four-year plan to carve out their niche (yes, Harvard has some of those) sometimes feel anxious about living up to the opportunities of Harvard. That can be a little oppressive, but it can also be exhilirating, certainly, on balance, more of the latter than the former for the vast majority of students there, but something of both for all of them.</p>

<p>The thing about the Center of the World and the Most Important Projects, though, is that one person can't experience all of it, just a corner. So the actual work you do at a place like Brown is probably just as challenging, exciting, important, etc., as what you would be doing at Harvard -- there's just not quite as much glancing at the mirror and admiring yourself doing it, and less consciousness of how Extraordinary Everyone Is. As you know, it's meaningfully smaller at the undergraduate level, and about a third of Harvard's size as a university, so it's much more intimate, somewhat more LAC-like. The kids it attracts prize its lack of requirements and atmosphere of intellectual curiosity. Lots of them are indistinguishable from the kids at Harvard, of course (and some of them wish they were at Harvard, which is a little bit of a bummer), but it's safe to say that there's less of an atmosphere of competition and living up to one's opportunities, and absolutely no sense of being in the Center of the World.</p>

<p>On some detailed criteria, Harvard has some advantages you have to consider: It is far wealthier; not all of the wealth is deployed in ways that matter to undergraduates, but lots is. It is, as everyone will tell you, a stronger, more internationally recognized brand. It's also probably a more recognized brand in the house where you live; there's no risk your parents will have a stroke if you decide to go to Harvard. It's colors won't remind anyone of dog poo and are likely to look better on you. There is no more beaten path to success in the world of journalism and writing than The Crimson and The Lampoon -- but those are very competitive institutions. I think the House system at Harvard is a plus vs. Brown's dorms. Providence is much nicer than it once was, but no rational 18-year-old willing to go to school in a city would rather be there than Cambridge (except that, there being less to do, you won't feel so bad about missing so much of it, or not having the money to spend on it).</p>

<p>On the other hand, some people (me) would prefer having RISD as a neighbor to having MIT. Much better parties, more difference between the student bodies. </p>

<p>At the end of the day, though, there is absolutely no reason to believe that your bright future would be brighter in either place. You are the most important variable in that function, and you are going to be you either place. Brown is plenty big enough to challenge you, and it's full of people who will amaze and amuse you. Ditto Harvard.</p>

10

<p>It is likely that Brown students rank their school significantly higher in both academic quality and quality of campus life on the COFHE survey (which encompasses about 60% of the undergraduate student bodies) than do Harvard's. It doesn't mean that academic quality and quality of campus life are actually higher, but it does tell you what the students think about it. (I say it is likely, though not certain, because H. ranked 27th out of 31 schools; Brown never released its data.)</p>

11

<p>Lingbo:</p>

<p>Congratulations. These are two great schools. My S, who is at Harvard, loved his visit at Brown. The students he encountered there were very happy and made him wish he could attend. He decided to attend Harvard because it is stronger in the field he wants to pursue.</p>

<p>A couple of comments:
I've heard that Brown is wonderful if you have a clear idea of what you want to pursue. If you are not, the lack of a curriculum can seem a great advantage, but you may come out not strong in any field. This is something to think about.</p>

<p>Harvard has just introduced minors (secondary fields) for which you need to take 4 or 6 courses (depending on the department) to be eligible and you do not need to write a senior thesis. I heard one senior is doing a degree in math with English literature as his secondary field. Joint degrees will continue to be offered and will still require students to write a senior thesis that somehow combine the two different fields (hard to think of how to combine English and math!).</p>

<p>I don't know how the Brown residential system compares to Harvard's house system. For what it's worth, the housing situation has been less than ideal for my S. He loves his roommates, but his room, which he has to share, is tiny. And for all that he wanted to be in the Boston area, there's so much to do on campus and he is so busy with his studies and the ECs he's in that he does not go into Boston very often.</p>

<p>Can you visit both Brown and Harvard? Although you cannot go wrong at either school, a visit might tip the balance in favor of one. Congratulations again.</p>

12

<p>LOL Marian.</p>

<p>On a personal note, Harvard is obviously a great institution, but I've not been overly impressed by the Big H alumni that I've met. On the other hand, I am very well acquainted with a couple of Brown graduates who are intelligent and talented and have been quite happy and successful in their professions. Then again, I'm partial to Columbia. Roar Lion roar!!!</p>

13

<p>Congratulations on the choices you get to make! Like others, I urge you to go for visits and talk to as many students as you can. S turned down Harvard (so did I, though I didn't mean to make it a family tradition!) and so I know how difficult it is to do.</p>

<p>When we visited Brown, we talked to a student there who had chosen it over Harvard because she said that when she asked Harvard students why they chose Harvard, they basically responded: "because it's Harvard." Brown students, on the other hand, tend to wax enthusiastically about their undergrad experience -- except for the somewhat dumply dorms.</p>

<p>I'd quibble a bit with Marite's comment that Brown is great if you have a clear idea of what you want to pursue. That's actually the way I feel about Harvard. I think that, with its unbeatable resources, Harvard is a fantastic place to a student who hits the ground running -- with an eye to professors to work with, grants to apply for, skills to pick up. I don't know whether Harvard's changed this or not, but it has required students pick a major by end of freshman year, while most colleges wait until end of sophomore year.</p>

<p>Brown, I feel, is a great place to explore more widely, perhaps even design your own program as you go.</p>

<p>As a journalist, I wouldn't know how to tell you what route to take these days. If you do end up in journalism, Harvard vs Brown will not be a deciding factor. You should go where you feel you'll be most be able to seize the opportunities to get published, and to report. As for coursework, majors don't really matter. These days, learning languages is especially valuable. </p>

<p>Really, you can't go wrong. Pick the place that feels like "you."</p>

<p>LakeWashington: LOL. S chose Columbia over Harvard.</p>

14

<p>Harvard is the way to go. I have been very impressed with Harvard people and the name opens doors EVERYWHERE worldwide. No school except for Yale has the name recognition worldwide like it or not that means alot in $$$$.</p>

15

<p>Yikes, someone thought I gave Harvard short shrift? Hardly. I am pro Harvard and in fact, am an alum of one of its graduate schools. I don't think Harvard or Brown are better than one another and think this girl has two fabulous choices and can't go wrong at either. I truly believe it will come down to personal preference from visits, and also how each school meets her PERSONAL criteria as to what she prefers in a college. </p>

<p>For instance, my D visited Harvard. It is not like there is much not to like. However, she chose not to apply. She was contemplating going into architecture and they do not have an architectural studies major. It doesn't mean she didn't like the school at all. In fact, she liked the residential college system. She certainly loves Boston (though Boston is not far from Brown either). My D has since attended a summer architecture intensive program at Harvard Graduate School of Design and loved it. I think she likely will even apply there for graduate school. I recall her saying the summer she spent there that she was glad she chose Brown and not Harvard and something to do with the setting and some other reasons. Obviously she is a very happy camper at Brown. My guess is that had she ever attended Harvard, she'd have been happy too. </p>

<p>Since I don't have a kid at Harvard, I can't comment much on the undergrad experience there. I surely do not think Brown is ANY better. I know that my kid and the other Brown students I have met, all come across very happy with their college. They are in classes they WANT to be in. The students are all very good academically but also engaged in extracurriculars (but I think this is very true at Harvard too). There is freedom to explore various interests and determine what you want to study. By the way, my D has taken courses also at RISD. </p>

<p>My opinion again, with regard to lingbo is that it really comes down to personal preferences as to how each school matches up with her college criteria and preferences, and then also some gut feelings on campus visits and meeting with people on campus related to her interests, etc. She has two fabulous options. It really is about fit and her gut feelings at this point. In no way could I possibly give Harvard "short shrift". Harvard is, well, HARVARD. It is a fantastic school. It is a matter of which one you personally like better. I would not choose Harvard because it is, well, Harvard, but more because it was the best fit and favorite of one's acceptances. The name alone is not going to make you happy. Like I said, my D liked Harvard but didn't choose to apply as it wasn't the best fit for her as an undergraduate. She didn't care about the name. However, she does like their graduate program in her field and likely will apply to it.</p>

16

<p>Lingbo, posters before me have said this but I'll say it again. . . visit!</p>

<p>Last April my daughter was torn in a seemingly unbreakable 3 way tie between Princeton, Harvard and Brown. She couldn't decide--she liked this school best for this reason, oh but then again she like that school best for that reason. She went round and round in circles. Then she went to visit. After making the visits all of her indecision was gone. She happened to choose Brown, and that might not be the right decision for you, but my guess is that if you visit both schools you will know where you belong.</p>

17

<p>I can't emphasize enough how the visits help one to decide. My D was indecisive when her acceptances rolled in and chose to go back to a few schools' accepted student event days and truly THIS is what contributed to her final decision. She literally decided AT the event at Brown. She liked each school for different reasons. I agree that Brown might not be the right decision for lingbo but that the visits will help her to make the final decision between two very good options.</p>

18

<p>Was your likely letter a result of some special talent, or are you just an all around fantastic student? I would assign .25 points to prestige, because Brown is a wonderful ivy league school and for every 2 people you impress with "Hahhvahd" you will alienate 1... or maybe the ratio is reversed. If you want to give each school a fair shot you will have to visit with an overnight. Good luck! (no wrong choices here)</p>

<p>I see the consensus above is also "visit" :D</p>

19

<p>I second SAC's comment about the curriculum. Although I graduated from Brown when dinosaur's roamed the earth and the New Curriculum was still sexy and new, I didn't know anyone who graduated without a very thorough grounding in their own discipline (the major, just like at any other college, with lots of pre-req's and requirements) plus a broad exposure to everything else (just like any other college.) Only difference was no foreign language requirement, which virtually everyone ignored, since we all wanted an exotic career traveling the globe which required fluency.... so all my friends continued with their HS language or picked up new ones.</p>

<p>The departmental requirements for a major are pretty similar to those anywhere else. If a kid is hell-bent on never taking chemistry you can do that at Brown.... but almost everyone ends up with a pretty balanced range of courses, despite no core requirements.</p>

<p>I loved my time there; it was a really special place filled with a lot of free-thinkers and self-starters without the angst of some of the other schools I had visited. Professors were hugely interested in their undergrads, even the famous ones, and you never felt like a number. I had a couple of interesting work-study jobs, one arranged for me by a professor without my knowledge. It was that kind of a place.... professors picking up the phone for you without being asked. Students weren't competitive-- I think we felt there was more than enough of the good stuff to go around.</p>

<p>You've got a good decision to make, and I agree with everyone else that you should visit and decide. The academics are similar; the "feel" of the place is very different as an overnight at H and B will probably reveal.</p>

<p>One stereotype which for sure has persisted for me now that I work in a large Corporate HR department in recruiting and see many, many undergrads each year.... Harvard is filled with kids who are ready to run the world; Brown is filled with kids who are actively engaged with the world and revel in the life of the mind.</p>

20

<p>I never knew you went to Brown, blossom! </p>

<p>I have to agree that the concentration at Brown is like majoring anywhere else with all the requirements. Other than the major, students get a broad liberal arts background which usually ends up well balanced by choice. I know my kid wants to explore many things. But the choices are hers to make. As far as foreign language, she cared about that and so took it and she is also into foreign travel. I think many choose to take a language. Being in charge of her education and taking what she needs and wants is something she really likes. Brown also supports independent studies and she is doing one this semester one on one with a professor. I also agree that the environment at Brown is non-competitive and that there is an air of cooperation amongst students. A couple days ago, my D spent an hour with her advisor (who is also the Dept. Head) with no agenda but simply to spend time together and she wanted to share her photos of her semester abroad. </p>

<p>I agree with Blossom that the "feel" of each school differs and that is where the visit and meeting with various people on campus will help a student to decide which feels right for her.</p>