<p>Ask a Harvard person why they chose Harvard over Yale, they will tell you something along these lines: "everyone wants to go to Harvard... the statistics show that more students choose Harvard as their first choice school than any other university".</p>
<p>Ask a Yale person why they chose Yale over Harvard, they will tell you that Yale maintains a perfect balance between undergraduates and graduates... that both get attention on their campus, whereas at Harvard the undergraduates are mostly ignored. They will speak with fierce loyalty about their residential college system... and tell you that these colleges at Yale foster a unique sense of community not found at any other Ivy, and found least of all at Harvard.</p>
<p>What it comes down to for Yalies is that most Yale students really love Yale. Most Harvard students don't really love Harvard.</p>
<p>Harvard students don't feel the need to justify their choice, the reasons for which seem self-evident.</p>
<p>Many Yale students, on the other hand, are somewhat defensive, and feel the need to justify their choice relative to Harvard - attacking Harvard so as to make Yale appear better. It is amazing how often this syndrome occurrs.</p>
<p>The Yale Daily News has editorialized about the typical Yalies' "Harvard centrism" - which it finds persistant and annoying. </p>
<p>The ultimate example it gave (for which it accepted full responsibility) was the front page story about Yale moving to two-ply toilet paper a year before Harvard. All progress, and all achievements, have no meaning except relative to Harvard.</p>
<p>Oh, but Harvard students <em>do</em> find the need to justify their choice just as Byerly is doing here 50 years after the fact (going so far as to fabricate bizarre stories about toilet paper?). Many can not say that they are happy at Harvard, as there is little unity and very few remnants of a true undergraduate experience at Harvard. They feel ignored by an atmosphere there that caters to graduate students much more than undergrads.</p>
<p>So the best thing Harvard undergrads can come up with is "I chose this school because a lot of other people did the same thing and that in itself justifies my decision." Which is the reason Byerly gave, as well.</p>
<p>Spend more time at each if at all possible and you will see whether you can see yourself being happy at each location. Harvard has great name recognition, and it attracts people from all over the world... but Yale does too and it has many unparalleled benefits to its undergraduate experience.</p>
<p>I find it in sharp contrast that the only arguments that Byerly can present in favor of choosing Harvard are cold, hard admission statistics whereas most people in favor of Yale speak of learning environment, people, and opportunities. </p>
<p>If nothing else, choosing a college should be a personal and subjective opinion, and not based on the statistics that are pulled from some past class of people that you don't know anything about.</p>
<p>In making your choice of what school to go to what you rather want to know? The statistics of decisions of people who's circumstances you had no idea about? Or the opinions of those who have experienced living and learning at these institutions?</p>
<p>Plus, the argument of the cross-statistics of Harvard/Yale is getting old. I think most people here have read enough times for you to have gotten your point across.</p>
<p>I have applied neither to Harvard nor to Yale but I can tell you that from a neutral point of view Harvard seems a much better option. Every other school, Yale included, compare themselves with Harvard. Harvard is treated as an epitome of perfection. The cross admit data referred here is very important because it shows that the cream of the country choose Harvard over Yale; they are sensible people and I can assure you that they dont choose Harvard just beacause of its name.</p>
<p>A link to the YDN toilet paper story. They later editorialized about how this was, serious or not, a typical case of Yale comparing itself to Harvard in every respect - big or little.</p>
<p>alixpaul, how can you assure anyone that Harvard isn't chosen because of its name? You said yourself "Every other school, Yale included, compare themselves with Harvard. Harvard is treated as an epitome of perfection." That seems to be talking up the name of Harvard, but not specifics of the actual program.</p>
<p>The reason Harvard is a huge <em>name</em> is due to its graduate schools, and it is unlikely that top undergraduate applicants across the country have the idea that undergrads are 99% ignored once they arrive on campus. Harvard applicants are much more optimistic about Harvard undergrad life than Harvard students are.</p>
<p>To the original poster, talk to actual Harvard undergrads (as well as Yalies) before making your decision. They are pretty different schools, so it's not likely that you'd be equally happy at each school.</p>
<p>Gosh Byerly, your primary issue in this discussion is 2 sentences out of 100 in an article about toilet paper. Yes, Yale did follow Harvard originally... Harvard was the first Ivy, Yale was second. But the toilet paper "remark in jest" has little to do with Yale's remarkable undergraduate experience or Harvard's lack of one.</p>
<p>TO THE ORIGNATOR OF THIS THREAD: I have just found a wonderful article from Harvard's newspaper detailing with a fairly balanced standpoint the differences between Harvard and Yale. The basic theme is "Should we have all gone to Yale?" and the general consensus is that "Unlike Harvard students who generally hate Harvard, Yale students seem to love Yale." Read for yourself.</p>
<p>Cold, gray and tiredthese are the words that describe her day-to-day Harvard malaise. I honestly dont know anyone who likes it here, she says. Everyone is waiting to get out.</p>
<p>In terms of the great diversity of people you get to meet and the strong connections you get to have, nothing beats Harvard. And being in Harvard, to undergraduates, is like being in paradise - they have the notion that they are in the best school in the world, and the experience is ethereal and ephemeral.</p>
<p>But for the ultimate undergraduate experience, Yale is much better. As a freshman, several programs are lined up to make you find your niche. Various notables in the society come over to give lectures. The college system in Yale is far better.</p>
<p>However, if you are a really serious student, who has wide interests, Harvard remains a top choice. You can take classes at grad schools and are assured of getting in after your commencement. The great library is also at your beck and call.</p>
<p>Looking at it from a practical point of view, I think fame is the name of the game when it comes to issues such as this.</p>
<p>Yale is known by virtually everyone on the planet. It's strange to entertain the notion that someone may have heard of Harvard but not Yale. Even in Thailand (as far away from the United States as any country on Earth - it's 3:53 AM Saturday morning there now while it is 3:53 PM Friday afternoon on the U.s. east coast), everyone has heard of Yale, Princeton, Stanford, and MIT as well as Harvard.</p>
<p>And Jrock, it may be true that Harvard's <em>name</em> is #1, but by what margin over a Yale or a Stanford? And even Harvard students also acknowledge that Yale's undergraduate experience is #1. It depends if your resume really needs to lean even more heavily on the name of your school instead of actual accomplishments (H?), or if you want to go where you will actually enjoy the whole experience and also get an extremely valuable degree (Y?).</p>
<p>You can take classes at grad schools and are assured of getting in after your commencement.</p>
<p>Anything but! Harvard undergrads are at a disadvantage getting into Harvard's graduate schools, not at an advantage! Students from other universities add more "diversity" to Harvard's graduate schools. The best Harvard undergrads at the top of the class will get in (as they would from Yale or Stanford) but many Harvard undergrads will be turned down.</p>
<p>I know Yale is far better but I'm just trying to make peace between the two sides.</p>
<p>And if you're a hardworking student, you'll get into the grad schools. Besides, I doubt if a Harv graduate would want to do grad school at Harvard.</p>
<p>Even with all my complaints, Harvard was a hard place to walk away from, he writes in an e-mail message. The culture there is either you love it or youll suck it up because the name is worth it. Most people, even those that are unhappy, wouldnt leave.</p>
<p>Popular culture suggests that Harvard is the place to be. U.S. News & World Report places Harvard at the top of its college rankings. Films like Legally Blonde purport that we can be smart, glamorous and happy all at the same time. Platitudes tell us we should be having the time of our lives. And yet the National Institute of Health reports that in 2002, 69 percent of Harvard students felt exhausted up to 10 times during the year, 65 percent felt overwhelmed by all they had to do and 48 percent felt things were hopeless. </p>
<p>Richard E. Freeman 03-05, a transfer student from Carnegie Mellon, posits that dissatisfaction is simply the nature of the beast, not a result of administrative negligence. There is a lot of melodrama here, he says. Students criticize Harvard as a university, but the problems they cite are typical anywhere. They dont realize this because they lack a different perspective.</p>
<p>It's not my article, it's a Harvard article. You would think that Harvard's own newspaper could paint a better picture of Harvard, but it was beyond even their scope. Adn yes, you just copy-and-pasted two paragraphs out of a two page article that almost somewhat ambiguously actually agreed with what you said. Let people read the entire article and get the full picture - the majority of Harvard's students would appear to agree that undergraduate life at Harvard is really poor. Only two Harvard students (one a transfer from equally unhappy CMU) had a positive opinion, and they were the two you just copied here.</p>
<p>According to Anna Franekova 05, the weight of this malaise crushes the liveliness of her peers. I met up with a Harvard friend in Prague and its incredible how different she was in a different environment, she says. There are too many people who are happier on the outside.</p>
<p>That's also what Harvard's article says about its own culture. The problem here is that Harvard is not set up as a place for undergraduates wanting to go to college. Harvard is a utopia for grad students who don't give a darn about undergraduates or a "college experience"... the grad students get the attention of the faculty, and the undergrads get the attention of no one.</p>