Harvard Div. of Continuing education

Graduate School Law School
1

<p>Guys, I recently received an e-mail telling me to apply for a scholarship to the Harvard Extension School. I got this e-mail for being a PTK officer at my CC. Initially, I was somewhat skeptical, but after double checking on the Harvard's website I realized it was actually a valid email and that the extension school is a part of HU. Granted, it is not Harvard college, but it is still Harvard University. I am assuming this should be a respected degree, but then again I don't know much about it. Do you guys know anything about the "Extension School" within Harvard University? Would it be a good place to get my Undergraduate degree, and then go to a top Law school?</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

2

<p>I don't want to knock anyone who has received a degree from it, but , no, don't aim for it. You will get a diploma which is NOT the same one as Harvard undergrads, you do NOT take regular Harvard courses, you won't live in a dorm or eat in a dining hall, and Harvard is located in a VERY expensive area.
Additionally, I don't think it gives financial aid.</p>

3

<p>Jonri, can you tell me where you got your facts from. I am just curious...either way, Thanks!</p>

4

<p>You can check the veracity of the information I provided at
<a href="http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/help/default.jsp%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.extension.harvard.edu/2004-05/help/default.jsp&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>That isn't really how I know it...but it should help convince you that it's really not at all like going to Harvard College. Among other things, the extension has open enrollment--anybody can take courses. However, I was wrong about one thing--it does offer financial aid.</p>

5

<p>Obviously the Harvard Extension School (HES) is not as good as Harvard College (HC). Hence it clearly is not as useful as a springboard into law school as is Harvard College.</p>

<p>However, I would contend that the HES may be useful than a lot of the other undergraduate programs out there. A lot (not all, but a lot) of the teaching is done by regular Harvard faculty. The classes tend to be smaller than that of many state schools, and so you may end up getting more personal attention at the HES than at many of those huge behemoth state schools. If you are formally admitted into an HES program, then while you will be provided with access to only a subset of greater Harvard's resources, that subset is sometimes more extensive than the entire sum of the resources available at other schools. And obviously the caliber of the student body is far lower than that of regular HC. Yet, that student body is often times still better than that of lower-tier schools. And obviously an HES degree is not as well respected as a degree from HC. On the other hand, it probably deserves more respect than that of lower-tier schools. HES is also more expensive than state schools, but is also less expensive than many private schools. </p>

<p>It is clearly true that you won't have access to the HC house system, no dorm life, none of the 'regular' student lifestyle. I would also caution that only a tiny fraction of those students who enroll in HES actually ever manage to complete their degree.</p>

<p>In short, there is absolutely no doubt that HES cannot touch HC. No doubt. Don't go to HES expecting to get an experience similar to HC. Nor should you think that you are going to be able to fool law schools into thinking that you came from HC if you came from HES. And in particular, the low graduation rate of HES is something that you should very seriously consider. </p>

<p>So, in short, if you are looking for a more normal college experience, you should not consider HES. If you think this is a backdoor way to get a Harvard degree, I would only point to the very low graduation rate of HES and say that only very highly motivated people ever end up completing an HES degree. I have actually looked into the HES program several times, and I can conclude that I do not believe that it is a backdoor. </p>

<p>However, if you don't think you really need a normal college experience and you can put up with the idiosyncracies of HES, then it may be the way to go. For example, let's say you were planning to live at home with your parents and commute to your college, then that means you weren't going to live the normal college lifestyle (with the dorm life and the late night bonding, etc.) anyway. </p>

<p>Bottom line, think carefully about what it is you want to get out of college. Depending on your circumstances, HES may or may not be right for you.</p>

6

<p>Jonri, I see you point. However, isn't the degree -although different from Harvard College-- granted by Harvard University? I mean, ideally, shouldn't that be a good thing? </p>

<p>As I mentioned before, I qualify for one of their scholarships, isn't that a good thing too? Assuming that room and board were not an issue, it would put me in a good financial situation. In regards, to the degree being different than HC, I am fully aware of that fact. Nonetheless, they do claim of sending people to Top Graduate and Law Programs --Including their own. Furthermore, you previously posted this link:
<a href="http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>There you see the undergraduate schools represented at HLS. When it comes to Harvard, they don't say Harvard College, they do say however, 238 students from Harvard University. I assume most do come from HC but, I would think that a few come from the Harvard Ext School. So, I wouldn't pay much attention to the "difference of the Diploma." I don't even think that your undergraduate degree will matter much if you attend a Top Graduate or Professional School. Anybody agree?</p>

<p>You also said "This isn't really how I know it"...I am curious if you do have any other type of experiences in regards to the ext. school diplomas and/or graduates. I mean, I do not know what your background is, but I would definetely love to hear some more about your experiences. Also, if you don't mind me asking, where did you go to school? and where are you attending LS now? Anyway, thank you for your replies, you have been quite helpful.</p>

<p>Sakky, I do agree with most --if not everything-- of what you said. I've been looking at this program closely and I would say it is definitely not a backdoor to a Harvard University degree. Certainly, it is not Harvard College, but it seems as a good alternative option to lower tiers schools, as long as one can handle the work. I also like the fact that you pointed out the low graduation rate, which consequently has led me to believe that there is not grade inflation at the HSE; after all Harvard College's reputation isn't on the line. The HES isn't use for reporting purposes and most people don't know it even exists. </p>

<p>Anyway, I am not an expert on this school, but I am not ignorant to it. I am simply looking for other viewpoints, advice, and experiences. Thank you for your post! Oh! If you don't mind me asking, what is your educational background Sakky? Thanks!</p>

7

<p>I took a Harvard summer class through the Extension School. That is my one, lone experience with it - but it was great. It was taught by a phenomenal professor who had been there for about 30 years. There were only nine of us in the class; average age was 34, and average years spent studying Greek was 8. The range on the latter was from one year (myself and a Princeton undergrad) to about 40 years (high school Greek teacher). Of the nine of us, at least four were current or former Ivy League-ers. </p>

<p>I would, however, be hesitant to extrapolate from that to the entire Extension School. What you should do is hunt down Marite on the Parent's Forum; her son has taken a ton of classes through the Extension School.</p>

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<p>ariesathena, thank you so much. Very interesting post. If you don't mind me asking, where did you graduated from, and why did you choose the Extension School? Furthermore, why only for one class? Was it Graduate or Undergraduate level? How would did the ivy-leaguers compare it --if they did at all-- ? what about the Princeton guy/girl? </p>

<p>Once again, thank you for your reply; I appreciate it!</p>

9

<p>Wildflower: I wanted to take a summer class so I could double major - this was undergrad - needed basically two extra classes so I wouldn't have to kill myself senior year... took six classes first semester and would have had to take six during second semster. I took one class at my alma mater (university in Boston area) and one at HES. I chose Harvard because, after looking at about a half-dozen schools in Boston and their summer offerings, I found that Harvard was the only one with Greek. It also worked really well with my schedule - I worked full-time as well, so I needed a night class. Best of all, it fit into my schedule and didn't overlap with the engin. course I was taking (engin. ended and Greek started up the next week). Cost was a factor - at $1,850, it was one of the most expensive, if not the most expensive, summer class in the Boston area, which is some of the reason I only took one course there Books and registration fees brought that over $2k. </p>

<p>I think that everyone really loved that class. It was certainly challenging (Homeric Greek not necessarily being the easiest of courses), but I loved it. Great class, and the professor, as I said earlier, is a Harvard prof with decades of teaching who does this for fun. Ivy types really enjoyed it and found it challenging - though someone did say that she spent the summer cooped up inside, studying Greek, instead of exploring Boston.</p>

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<p>Wildflower, you say:</p>

<p>"When it comes to Harvard, they don't say Harvard College, they do say however, 238 students from Harvard University. I assume most do come from HC but, I would think that a few come from the Harvard Ext School."</p>

<p>I don't claim to know, but I think it EXTREMELY unlikely that ANY HLS students come from the Harvard Extension School. I would suggest that you check .</p>

<p>Here's a brief history lesson. Once upon a time, there was Harvard College, a men's college. There was also Radcliffe College, a women's college. They were what was then known as "co-ordinate colleges." (There were seven such arrangements in the US back in the early sixties.) Both Harvard College and Radcliffe College were parts of Harvard University. Beginning in 1963--give or take a year--graduates of both colleges received the same Harvard University diploma. In 1999, Radcliffe ceased to be a separate undergraduate college, although it still exists as a corporation and has some functions, irrelevant to this discussion. </p>

<p>Between 1963 and 1999, there was much debate as to whether Radcliffe should continue as a separate college. This was a highly emotional subject. Many students/alumnae felt that Radcliffe was meaningless and that women should be equal members of Harvard College. They therefore identified themselves as Harvard students. Others felt passionately that Radcliffe and its traditions should continue and they always said they attended/had graduated from Radcliffe College. So, there was a time when, if you went through a yearbook at any law, med school, etc., some women would list themselves as Harvard grads and others would list themselves as Radcliffe grads. Unfortunately, there was some confusion, as many outsiders assumed there was a real difference, comparable to that between a female student at Columbia and a Barnard student. So, HLS and other parts of Harvard itself started identifying everyone who had been an undergraduate at that institution as a graduate of Harvard University. </p>

<p>As I've said, I don't know if there are any Extension grads in Harvard Law School. Maybe there are. But HLS lists Harvard University rather than Harvard College because that designation includes Radcliffe College alumnae.</p>

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<p>Ariesathena, thanks! Your post has been quite helpful, and interesting. Now, why was the course so expensive? Was it Graduate Level? It is my understanding that Undergraduate courses are around $500.</p>

<p>jonri, thanks for the History lesson, though I was aware of that fact ;). I emailed both HLS and HES, and they replied...yes, there have been HES students at HLS and all of the other HU schools. Obviously, these are students that clearly distinguished themselves as undergraduates, the HES emphasizes that. However, I didn't received specific numbers of HES at HLS in any given year, or altogether for that matter.</p>

<p>Now, if I attend HES, it may take me a little longer than here in WA --which you adviced. But it may be more costly, so, it is not a first choice for me. Either way, I'll keep you posted of what happens.</p>

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<p>I meandered around the website - I think that summer courses might be more than courses during the school year. One is the "summer school" part of DCE, while the school year ones are Extension School. I do very well remember cutting a check for $1,850 though... eek!</p>

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<p>Women of my era who went to the school generally referred to it as "Harvard-Radcliffe".</p>

14

<p>I don't know much about the undergraduate program but I can tell you that the graduate program is good.</p>

<p>I am attending a one-year graduate program in management and finance. Many professors are Harvard affiliated (from Harvard Business School or JFK).
As in every programs, there are some good, bad, easy and difficult courses.
You can base your course selection on the enrollment statistics (available online) or on the professor's grade (students leave a feedback on the course quality at the end of each term).</p>

<p>I wanted to state that the courses in Finance are good (I took 6 of them). As a full-time student (and full-time only!), you have access to the same facilities as Harvard college students (libraries, sport, dining and other advantages). You don't have access to the housing on campus as a graduate student.</p>

<p>Also, both Harvard Extension School and Harvard Summer School are part of the Division of Continuing Education of Harvard. Which in turn belongs to the Faculty of Arts and Sciences. Surprisingly, Harvard Summer School is also part of Harvard College but the Extension School isn't. Very strange...</p>

15

<p>Jonri - There's much mis-information in your message. By looking at HES' course catalog, one sees that most of courses are taught by the same faculty as in Harvard College. Furthermore, for HLS to say that it accepts a number of students from Harvard University only reflects the fact that Harvard is a collection of twelve degree-granting schools, including the Medical School, Divinity School, Graduate School of Arts and Sciences, Kennedy School, and more. Extension Students are known to apply (and to be accepted by) other parts of the University. (They may also cross-register in any of the schools and take classes there as a part of their program. With the exception of the house system, they participate fully in the activities of the university.) To be sure, HES programs are difficult and the attrition rate is significant. One must be both dedicated and persistent to succeed.</p>

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<p>Well, actually, Gregory, while some of the things you said are correct and relevant, some of the things you have said are not entirely relevant.</p>

<p>First off, what jonri was referring to when he said that HLS accepts a number of students from Harvard University, that was a reference to the number of students getting undergraduate degrees from Harvard University. There are only 2 (or 3) bodies at Harvard that grant undergraduate degrees - Harvard College, HES, and, also, you may or may not want to count Radcliffe which used to give out undergraduate degrees. So the total is either 2 or 3. All the other degree-granting schools at Harvard do not matter for the purposes of this discussion because they don't grant undergraduate degrees. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I would also point out that the cross-registration is not generally a viable option when HES undergrads (graduate students, maybe, but undergrads, not really). HES undergrads have to file special petitions to cross-reg into normal Harvard College classes, and approval is not automatic. Furthermore, the graduate classes at the other Harvard schools are generally not open to HES undergrads - and to be fair, are only open to Harvard College undergrads on a limited basis as well. Surely you must agree that it is ridiciulous to think that a HES undergrad could go and take advanced surgery classes at Harvard Medical School. </p>

<p>I would also point out that while technically speaking, HES students do have access to the resources at greater Harvard University, as a practical matter, the access is highly attenuated, when compared to Harvard College. The simple fact is, much of what comprises a traditional Harvard College experience is the social experience. Very few Harvard College students will be taking HES courses, and as a HES student, it will be difficult (not impossible, but difficult) to get into regular Harvard College courses. Hence, the interaction that you will have with regular Harvard College students will be limited. That doesn't make HES bad. It just means that HES is what it is. It's designed for working people. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, while I think there can be little doubt that HES is not as strong as Harvard College is, it is probably still stronger than a lot of other programs out there. This is where jonri and I disagree. Of course HES isn't as good as HC is, but how many programs out there are as good as HC? You may not be taking regular Harvard College courses, but I would contend that the HES courses are probably better than courses provided by a lot of other undergrad programs out there, particularly the big, impersonal state schools. Yes, HES is located in an expensive area - but the fact that HES is a flexible program means that you can live in the outskirts and take the T into town and save money that way. Couple that with the fact that a full semester's load of HES courses is cheaper than a semester at most private schools (including Harvard College), and I think the whole 'cost' issue is a red herring. You won't live in a dorm, eat in a dining hall, and will have probably suffer from an attenuated social experience - but hey, a lot of other schools out there don't exactly offer all that great of a social experience either. And finally, the low graduation rate of HES is definitely something you have to consider. On the other hand, there are other schools out there who also have conspicuously low graduation rates. </p>

<p>The point is, if you get into Harvard College, then you should definitely choose that over HES. However, if we're talking about HES vs. some of the other schools out there, then you have to weigh the pros and cons. I'm not telling you to do HES, and I'm not telling you not to do it. I'm saying that you have to carefully consider what you hope to achieve.</p>

17

<p>As undergraduate, candidates with GPAs of 3.33 or higher who have completed at least 32 units at Harvard Extension School may apply to enroll in two courses per term for one academic year at HC. Similar arrangements can be made with the other graduate school for HES' graduate students. (With this flexibity, one can take most of the same curriculum at at HC since many HC professors teach the same courses at HC and HES.) Frankly, one of the remarkable qualities of the campus is how accessible faculty and students are. (There's little of the ranking snobish you imply.) Yes, if you have the option to attend HC, go. However's there's also the opportunity to receive the education in a non-traditional way.</p>

18

<p>You just said the key operating words right there - "may apply". What you are referring to is the method by which HES students can apply to receive Harvard Special Student Status, which, once obtained, allows you to take some courses at HC. But the process of becoming a Special Student is by no means automatic. Having a 3.33 and having completed at least 32 units are only the minimum requirements to apply for Special Student status, but by no means does it guarantee anything. You may or may not get it. </p>

<p>I don't think I display any of the ranking snobbishness except to say that HC is better than HES, and I think that's something that very few people will seriously dispute. </p>

<p>Look, HES is what it is. It is an effective way to get a nontraditional degree, but people should not think that it is a backdoor into Harvard. Nor should people be falsely led into thinking that HES offers more than it does. HES is certainly not a normal college experience. Whether that's important is up to you.</p>

19

<p>For the past six years the Pre-Law Society at the Extension School has provided a forum for students to meet and discuss concerns related to applying to law school. Lawyers from the Greater Boston legal community--including those who have received undergraduate or graduate degrees at the Extension School--have spoken at the group's meetings.</p>

<p>This year, under the leadership of ALB candidate Dale Congo, the Pre-Law Society inaugurated a series of Wednesday evening talks by distinguished members of the Harvard community. Alan M. Dershowitz, Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law at Harvard, will speak on Wednesday, April 17, at 7:30 pm in Emerson Hall 105.</p>

<p>Professor Dershowitz has taught at the Harvard Law School for more than 30 years. The courses he teaches cover criminal law, psychiatry and law, constitutional litigation, family law, comparative criminal law, legal ethics for criminal lawyers, and violence and civil liberties. He has written 12 books, ranging from textbooks in criminal law to the more recent and popular The Abuse Excuse (Little, Brown, 1994), The Advocate's Devil (Warner Books, 1994), and the just-published Reasonable Doubts (Simon and Schuster). The author for nearly a decade of the "Justice" column in Penthouse Magazine, he has also written for The Atlantic, US News and World Report, The New Republic, Harper's, The Nation, and Psychology Today. His newspaper articles have appeared in local, regional, and national publications, as have his book reviews and general commentary.</p>

<p>The officers and directors of the Pre-Law Society welcome all members of the Extension School community to join them on April 17 in hearing one of the University's most distinguished (and publicly visible) teachers.</p>

20

<p>Taken from from <a href="http://www.*******.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.*******.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Date: March 7th, 2005 7:07 PM
Author: RickZ
Subject: HES Degrees and Students</p>

<p>And explain for those who inquire about the degree exactly what it is and how Extension is connected to the rest of Harvard. </p>

<p>Have pride in your accomplishment- you still received an Ivy League education. </p>

<p>And to Joe from Cal Tech U. (or Hummer Burning U. as it's known here in L.A.) get off your high horse about HES- let me give you my experience about going to the Extension School. </p>

<p>I originally attended Stanford in 1980 and left after 3 quarters, I returned to school via UCLA extension in 1995 (by the way the classes were taught by real UCLA Prof's and have regular UCLA students in them) I chose UCLA Extension because I still had to make a living. The classes were exactly the same as the regular classes held at UCLA except you get the 4 hours at one class weekly and at night after work. I then decided to finish my degree and I could not return to Stanford or transfer into UCLA or SC or even Cal Tech (Hummer Burning U.) I had to work (plus I was now in my mid 30's). </p>

<p>An advisor I had at UCLA told me about HES and I was able to make the move to Boston and find comparable work while I finished school at HES (and grad school later). </p>

<p>And let me tell you the classes there were just as demanding as they were at Stanford and as an added plus you actually had real interaction with the Prof's and most of them were real “genuine” Harvard Prof's not as you’ve described Joe. </p>

<p>And my story was typical of my time there as where HES degree students came from- two of my best friends I made at HES backgrounds were one that returned to school after leaving USC in the early 80's and another after leaving Yale in the mid 80's. </p>

<p>And now to finish my story Joe after graduating from HES I went on to -hold on now Joe- Harvard Design School and obtained a MUP taking regular Design School and Kennedy School of Government classes, but also while at the Design School I enrolled in some of the open admission/enrollment policy classes on Architecture, City Planning, Design and Development at both the Harvard Design School and now hold on again Joe---- M.I.T. (or as they know it around Kendall Square “Cal Tech Plus”-the plus being-- were M.I.T. not the M.I.T. Extension School--- Cal Tech) . </p>

<p>And a few more facts for you Joe about us lowly HES grads (all 100 of us yearly) I took classes at Harvard College, 6 in all while a student at HES (alas I must be honest with you Joe- my Harvard College GPA was only 3.66) and 2 at Harvard Graduate School while at HES (sorry again Joe Harvard Grad GPA was only 4.0) see Joe they let you do that if you’re a qualified and approved degree candidate at HES- that is take classes at any of Harvard's schools except Law and Medical. </p>

<p>I worked on an economic research project -for credit- with a Harvard College (believe it or not) tenured Prof.. </p>

<p>I was also a member of one of the undergrad houses while taking classes at Harvard College and the Grad School, along with that I was able to attend and participate in the graduation of all of Harvard's Schools- they let me become a member of the alumni and even now they have given me a official super duper Harvard forwarding email account as all Harvard Graduates qualify for and if I shower and wear shoes -this is really the best- I can go inside and look around the Harvard Club no matter what city I'm in where they have one (since us HES grads don't really read well they send us a picture map of their locations) I'm not sure though if I or my fellow HES alumni can sit down and eat. And Joe if you call to authenticate my degree at the Harvard Alumni Records Office (617-495-2371) they will tell you my degree is an A.L.B. from the Harvard University Extension School obtained by taking classes at Extension and Harvard College. </p>

<p>Oh just one more thing Joe my actual degree says on it (besides A.L.B. Harvard University -not A.L.B. Extension-) something your degree certainly doesn't say- </p>

<p>Conferred by: </p>

<p>"The President and Fellows of Harvard College" </p>

<p>Rick, </p>

<p>Los Angeles, Ca.</p>