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<p>Non-elite athletes? Tell that to the student-athletes who have won national championships for their Ivy schools, in such sports as hockey, lacrosse, wrestling, field hockey, rowing, swimming, polo, and others.</p>
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<p>Cayuga, Cayuga. What are you thinking? Don’t you know that the only college sports worth mentioning are football and basketball? :rolleyes:</p>
<p>Let me substitute the term “elite” with “world-class.” At the recent Beijing Olympics, there were about as many athletes representing Stanford as there were representing the entire Ivy League combined. Forty-nine Stanford athletes participated and eight brought home gold medals. Name me one Ivy League school who can boast such a record.</p>
<p>“college sports are much more entertaining than pro sports.”</p>
<p>Assuming this to be true, I don’t see why the college sports need to be attached to one’s own alma mater in order to be entertaining. The vast majority of people watching the Oklahoma-Florida game didn’t go to either school, and we had a lot of fun, too.</p>
<p>nyccard, Stanford pays top athletes to attend Stanford. That’s fine…different strokes for different folks. But it’s not very compelling to point out that most people would rather earn money for their labor than give it away for free. I mean, duh.</p>
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<p>This statement is really flawed. You can dismiss people’s issues with it as mere “ruffled feathers” but the fact remains that there is AMPLE evidence that academia, regardless of region, has long valued the role of athletics in student life. Intramurals, intervarsity sports, and physical education are a fixture on many college campuses, and not under protest by academics.</p>
<p>Let’s use Harvard as an example, since you’re holding them up as “new” to realizing their importance.</p>
<p>Harvard sponsors more sports than any Division I school (41)–and that has been true for at least a decade. Their “athletics for all” philosophy can be traced back to the era just after WWI when the administration integrated intramurals into their house system.</p>
<p>Or we could start with the fact that Harvard is credited with having the first intercollegiate athletic event in 1852 (a boat race against Yale). Or the fact that in the early 1900s, Harvard had problems with scheduling its academic commencement because there were so many athletic events that were considered an integral part of the celebration. Or the fact that during WWII, they instituted a requirement that all undergrads must have four workouts per week. Or the fact that in 1952 President James Conant dismissed concerns about the fact that spending on athletics was almost half a million more than revenue–he said it wasn’t a deficit but a “cost of operation.”</p>
<p>I don’t see this as some new realization, nor do I accept that academics–particularly those in one region of the country–don’t comprehend the concept of a holistic education. Sure, not every faculty member is equally accepting of students’ desires for clubs, social life, and yes, athletics, but I don’t believe it’s at all true that academics in general show a lack of understanding of the value of the co-curriculum.</p>
<p>Hanna,</p>
<p>So what you’re implying is that Ivy athletes must be really stupid because you’d have to be stupid to give away your “labor” for free, no?</p>
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<p>I have to say I disagree with this… the things a good football team can add to a school are priceless. Football can give the entire student body something to enjoy and participate in, and when students are interested and invested in the sport, a school can become a much happier, more spirited place. It’s a chance for everybody to do something fun on a Saturday afternoon; it gives students something to talk about and bond over; it increases school spirit and pride-- football can really add to a school’s atmosphere.</p>
<p>Of course, I don’t think Harvard should let all its academic standards fly out the window in order to admit top recruits. (Which likely wouldn’t work anyway, because there aren’t many top HS players that would be willing to give up a big-name football school and a free ride to attend Harvard, sadly.) But I think <em>slightly</em> lowering standards for athletes is not an entirely bad idea-- they do it for URM’s, first-generation, etc., and the benefits a vibrant sports program adds to a school are innumerable. I don’t think Harvard should aim to delvelop into a SEC/ Big 10/ ACC-caliber program-- I think fielding a national championship-level team would take away some of what makes Harvard Harvard: that academic atmosphere that comes from thousands of bright, motivated, friendly students, which I have a hard time seeing at a true football school-- but I believe the costs of admitting 30 or so students with <em>slightly</em> lower stats than typical admits would not outweigh the benefits that come with having a good football team: the spirit permeating throughout the school; the happy, excited students and alums crowding the stadium on Saturdays; the way the school comes together. These intangibles are priceless.</p>
<p>And if you think about it-- a student with solid-but-not-incredible-stats that invested a significant amount of time in any EC, whether it’s music or a job or scientific research, stands a decent chance of being admitted if they have truly excelled at that activity and really put a large portion of their time into it. A great athlete belongs in this category, too, but I’m sure that more people would object to a 2100 SAT, 3.6 GPA football player being admitted over a 2400 4.0 than they would to a talented violinist with the same stats being admitted over the latter applicant, because sports are simply passed off as less intellectual than other activites-- and yes, it’s true that sports don’t require an amazingly high IQ. But they DO require extreme dedication, focus, passion, strategy, responsibility, leadership, etc., and those qualities are just as important in a person as anything else. Sports can really strengthen a person’s character, and a good football program can really add to a school. Just my two cents.</p>
<p>[Not to say Harvard’s football is bad, though-- they’ve done really well in the Ivy League the past couple of years. What I think would really strengthen their program and increase interest is building a tougher non-conference schedule and doing well in that, if it could be possible.]</p>
<p>This maybe doesn’t have a lot to do with the topic. I coach kids’ soccer here on the Southside of Chicago. I had a couple of terrific players and got anointed as a soccer guru solely because of their abilities. One was the daughter of Craig Robinson, two time Ivy League Basketball Player of the Year at Princeton.
Mr. Robinson’s sports experience had at least a small effect on history in this way- his younger sister Michele figured she sure as heck was smarter than her brother, why shouldn’t she go to Princeton?
Craig Robinson was well placed to continue in his investment position after graduation but decided to pursue what he loved best, basketball, at an entirely different income level.
Of course, none of this has anything to do with major sports as as cohesive force at elite schools. Just the role of sports in individual biographies.</p>
<p>The excessive interest in spectator sports is a symptom of a broader problem in our society. The public is conditioned and bred like livestock to spend money, time, and energy on frivolous activities of no real benefit to individuals and at considerable cost to their own welfare. Corporations, executives, and entertainers make a lot of money at the publics’ expense. Individuals could be engaging in activities that have real benefit to themselves but they are enticed by glitz and excitement and hype into wasting a portion of their lives so others can profit. It’s sad. There are much better uses for our time, money, and energy. People would have better lives if they thought more critically about how they spend their resources. People should act in their own long-term interests. The road to mediocrity is paved with ticket stubs, ipods, video games, drugs, alcohol, and [add your vice here].</p>
<p>Hmmm… the topic seems to have mostly shifted into the value of the DI experience for the student athletes themselves. A separate and equally complex topic. My observations of those close to me has led me to understand that the long term benefits usually far, far outweigh the sacrifices if one has the constitution to endure.</p>
<p>However, that is not the topic of this thread :)</p>
<p>My son is an Ivy League lacrosse player. Schools are definitely placing more value on athletics which is not a bad thing. Athletes contribute equally to the diversity of a school when compared to the violinist. There is a high academic standard at such colleges, however athletes do generate quite a bit of revenue for the college itself. I wouldn’t think that the same could be said for the violinist in the time spent at college. It is generally an unfair system, however the kids on the team seem to do extremely well after graduation and there is something to be said about that.</p>
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<p>They don’t need to be. Most people enjoy watching college sports regardless of where the did (or didn’t) go to school. When your own school is doing the competing, however, it is much more exciting and entertaining.</p>
<p>collegehelp,
In regard to your statement, </p>
<p>“The public is conditioned and bred like livestock to spend money, time, and energy on frivolous activities of no real benefit to individuals and at considerable cost to their own welfare.”</p>
<p>I have only one thing to say and it rhymes with, </p>
<p>“Mooooooooooooooooooooo!!” </p>
<p>hanna,
Re your observation on watching college sports and those who watched the Oklahoma-Florida game, I hear you, but the experience for major college sports (and particularly for football) is, for so many of us, about much more than the games themselves. </p>
<p>As I have posted many times, I like the games okay, but I really like the social aspect of the event and the buzz and energy that a major college sporting event can create on a campus. This has positive benefit for students, families, alumni, employees, etc. Some have noted the general apathy at most Ivy sporting events today. I’m conjecturing that some of the folks at these schools might also enjoy the excitement and the experience that goes with a higher profile, nationally relevant event.</p>
<p>^^^</p>
<p>Great post hawkette. The atmosphere surrounding these big-time collegiate sporting events is hard to rival.</p>
<p>“So what you’re implying is that Ivy athletes must be really stupid because you’d have to be stupid to give away your “labor” for free, no?”</p>
<p>No more than people volunteering at churches, schools, and hospitals are stupid. There are those who feel that the non-monetary benefits of that experience are a sufficient reward. There’s nothing stupid about that – it’s just a different value judgment. But those seeking financial rewards will always outnumber the minority who prefer to volunteer.</p>
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<p>I understand what you are driving at here, but there are SO many excellent violinists among the highly-statted kids that I think one can say with perfect confidence that NO violinists get a break on stats. The only possible exception would be a performer on the level of Yo-Yo Ma, who did indeed attend Harvard. I heard him play in the orchestra there while I was in college. (Note that I am NOT saying that Yo-Yo Ma needed a break on his stats to get in to Harvard. I’m just saying that you would have to be that kind of a standout to get the break, especially as a violinist.)</p>
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<p>And is this combined with a lack of school spirit and long-term loyalty to the institution? I don’t think so. Maybe people need successful, bowl-level football to care about Clemson. That seems to be what Hawkette and the other big-time, money sports fans are implying. Clearly, people DON’T need bowl-level football to care passionately about Yale or Dartmouth, or even Harvard. <jk, harvard=“” :d=“”> </jk,></p>
<p>Sure, there are probably SOME people at Harvard who would like a Big 10 football atmosphere, although I would venture to guess that most of the people with a realistic chance of Harvard admission who really care about that chose to go elsewhere.</p>
<p>So what? I went to two well-known academic institutions without football teams, and neither of them would have been improved by the addition of football. What they would have been is different–not better.</p>
<p>It’s quite obvious that this debate has gone on in admissions offices as well. There is no formula for getting into college, the only way to really do that is to get into the heads of admissions officers. I think that I found a program that can actually do that…I am going to seek out private counsel for my son’s applications.</p>
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<p>There is so much more to sports than just “frivolous activity.” I’m an avid sports fan, have been since elementary school, and I can’t even start to count the ways sports have contributed to my life. Sports is full of role models-- there’s Jackie Robinson, Roberto Clemente, Jim Abbott, Ernie Davis, Bobby Jones, Woody Hayes, Larry Doby, Herb Brooks, Jim Valvano, Vince Lombardi, Yogi Berra, and that’s just a few off the top of my head. There’s thousands more, and all of them have lessons to teach. You want to know about pressing on in something even when it hurts? Look at Jack Youngblood, who played in a Super Bowl with a broken leg. About knowing what really matters and keeping it all in perspective? Look at Lou Gherig, who felt like “the luckiest man on the face of the earth” even while dying with ALS. And on and on. Sports can also bring people together in a way few other things can-- easily the way my dad and I have bonded best has been through watching the Indians, Browns and Cavaliers play. [And lose, since in Cleveland ‘playing’ and ‘losing’ seemed to be synonyms until LeBron and Grady came around-- although they <em>still</em> haven’t given us a championship! Grrr.] We’re not in Ohio anymore, though-- I’m a North Carolina high school girl, and Monday my <em>entire</em> 2,000-student high school was in mourning over the way the Panthers got destroyed by the Cardinals-- people who had never talked were agonizing over it together. I’m hard-pressed to think of something that brings people together like sports does. </p>
<p>And these benefits come just from watching sports-- there are many additional lessons to be learned from playing them. Sports and life are similar in many ways-- nearly all the lessons learned in sports apply in life, too. The process needed to acheive an athletic goal is the same one used to achieve an academic or social goal. The teamwork you use when you play applies to working with anyone. And so on.</p>
<p>I just can’t find the words to describe how big a part of my life sports are and how much they’ve changed me for the better. Being a sports fan should <em>not</em> be considered a ‘vice.’ It should be considered something that builds character, gives people something to share, and offers an escape from everyday life. I just cannot stress this enough-- the things you learn from sports are essential in life.</p>
<p>[I mean, hey, look at me-- Monday I watched my Buckeyes come <em>THISCLOSE</em> to beating superpower Texas only to watch them fall, and literally cried for an hour. After what we’ve gone through these past couple of years-- Florida, LSU, USC, Penn State-- to come so close and then watch our incredible defense fall apart in those measly little last two minutes? That hurts. Then Thursday I saw the Browns make the mistake of hiring Eric Mangini. Saturday I watched the Panthers get ripped to shreds at home and threw away all my Super Bowl dreams as Delhomme threw one interception after another-- and this year was my first one of being a Panthers fan: I decided to convert due to the Browns’ abysmal performance and the contagious way this state was going crazy for the team. Whoops-- mistake. All that did was break my heart. Arguably the worst sports week of my life. But it taught me to move on from things, to look for the good in the bad-- the Cavaliers beat the Celtics, which didn’t nearly make up for all the losses, but focusing on that helped, and I got over it all. Important sports/ life lesson learned. :)]</p>
<p>Participating in sports is healthy and beneficial. Watching sports, not so much.
Why do you care about watching games? Doesn’t your own life have enough meaning?
Don’t spend your life watching other people have a good life. Focus on your own life.</p>