Harvard/LACs

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
1

<p>Well, my son, who's actually out of the country right now (so doesn't know it yet), was accepted today at Harvard. But he's also been accepted at several terrific LACs (including Swarthmore, Amherst, Williams). </p>

<p>The potential advantages of attending an LAC seem pretty clear to me: professors who are not only brilliant, but actually want to be teaching undergraduates; the opportunity to actually talk to your professors without having to elbow your classmates out of the way in order to get to them; a strong sense of community, etc., etc., etc. Frankly - and I'm not trying to be flip here - the advantages of attending Harvard as an undergraduate seem less evident to me.</p>

<p>What am I missing?</p>

2

<p>The advantage of Harvard is the peer group. It probably has the most diverse, talented, intense, passionate, independent group of students in the country. Students at Harvard are as passionate about pursuing ECs as they are about academics. This is something that some students would love. Another big plus is having a big city at one's doorstep.</p>

<p>Students whose passions lie mainly or strictly on the academic side and who long for a small college, very supportive, small town atmosphere that facilitates close relationships with many profs probably would be happier in a LAC.</p>

3

<p>I have a D in the same situation as epistrophy. There is little question in my mind that Harvard would mean TAs teaching at least some classes, graduate students as 'advisers', more large classes (than at an LAC), having to 'fight' for time with a prof, fewer research opportunities due the the competition of graduate students, and being just a number or a 'cog in the machine' with 1650 other classmates. </p>

<p>In all honesty, aside from the name and the 'prestige factor', I haven't heard yet how an Ivy like Harvard will provide a better or more well-rounded education than a top LAC. Too many kids are caught up in the 'name game' these days and, in my opinion, they don't give enough consideration to what they are getting into for the next 4 years. Bigger is not necessarily better when it come to a college education.</p>

4

<p>In most cases, if a student prefers a smaller community in a suburban or rural setting, a LAC will be preferrable to Harvard or another comparable mid-sized research university. In other cases, mid-sized research universities such as Harvard will have the edge. The faculty come from the same departments, and the admitted students come from the same pool.
My S decided to apply EA to Harvard after investigating the possibilities of Williams whose math department is supposed to be terrific. He found that he would run out of math courses fairly early. The breadth and depth of course offerings available at mid-sized research universities cannot be matched by LACs.
After taking some courses at Harvard, my S found that TAs can be a real plus, not a defect. He found his profs approachable, but the TAs were also very helpful in explaining things futher. They led sections, graded and commented on problem sets, etc... In making his decision, he also considered the experience of his brother, who attended a LAC. The latter found himself shut out of some courses with capped enrolments. It made his senior year quite stressful. My younger S won't be facing this problem at H because of the availability of TAs. He will encounter some large courses, but there are plenty that are as small as any course at LACs. He took one course that had 10 students but had an undergraduate course assistant who graded problems and led review sessions. Another course had 30 students, with 3 TAs.
Harvard does not have the same sense of a tight-knit community as a LAC or even Princeton or Yale because of the incredible array of ECs and the setting in Cambridge/Boston. That is something to consider.
In sum, I would not say that Harvard is "better" than a top LAC or another Ivy. It is better in some respects and less good in others. It really depends on the individual student's needs and personal and academic interests.</p>

5

<p>I agree with marite's and NSM's comments. I would also say, as the parent of a high school senior, that I think your son or daughter is the only person who can make this decision. </p>

<p>Harvard has a greater breadth and depth of resources than a LAC, while LACs tend to have a more nurturing environment. Which is "better" is entirely a function of which is the better fit, which type of school your son or daughter falls in love with. Don't let the stereotypes take control of the decision in either direction. It is very possible to take small classes and have faculty contact at Harvard if you take the initiative and if that's your priority. At the same time, some of the lecture classes can be fantastic because of the resources that can be brought to a large class. (E.g., globalization with Larry Summers, or introductory economics with professors who have previously served as the President's chief economic adviser.)</p>

<p>If at all possible, have your son or daughter spend some time on each campus, hang out with students, go to classes, etc. My son found that he just didn't connect at the LACs he visited (too small, too geographically isolated), whereas he fell in love with Harvard. A number of his classmates applied only to LACs. There is no "one size fits all." If Harvard is the right place for your child, it can be an amazing experience. If it's the wrong place, it can be dreadful. But it's your son's or daughter's decision to make.</p>

<p>P.S. to Daddo09: TA's typically do not teach classes, but rather teach a "section" of a large lecture class. The class might meet two times a week in a lecture format with senior faculty, and then have one session a week in a small group of students with a TA to discuss and elaborate on the lectures. A good TA can be a fabulous resource for this purpose, not to mention what one can learn from one's fellow students in the small group setting.</p>

6

<p>Thank you for the very thoughtful posts. </p>

<p>If anyone has anything else to say on this topic, jump right in. </p>

<p>I'd be very interested in hearing it.</p>

7

<p>As a parent paying $40,000 for d's education, I am delighted she chose small LAC with the academics and environment she was seeking. H & I both preferred LAC for our own education and some of our priorities may have influenced her decision, who knows. We made sure she visited all kinds, sizes, locations of options before applying ED. I also know H very well. It wouldn't be the right choice for me or d. but many of the undergrads do like it, regardless of the recent survey. It has amazing resources, fellow students, etc. and is such an individual decision!</p>

8

<p>The main reason I didn't go to a LAC was that most of them are in the middle of nowhere, which would probably drive me insane after four years. (Yeah, I know Swarthmore, for example, isn't totally in the middle of nowhere, but it seemed pretty clear to me when I visited that students are discouraged from leaving campus.) I was also pretty underwhelmed by the research resources at the LACs I saw and by the narrowness of the course selection.</p>

9

<p>epistrophy,</p>

<p>It might be helpful if you can post this on the College Search or the LACs' forums as well.</p>

10

<p>Is academics the only thing you are concerned about?</p>

11

<p>Reading prefrosh.net, I came across this excerpt from a student in response to a question comparing class sizes at Harvard vs. LACs.</p>

<br>


<br>

<p>Yes, we are big. Yes, there are big classes. With 6,600 undergraduates there inevitably will be. Do you have to take them? In most cases yes. These are intro classes, and a lot of students take them. Either to explore different areas of conentrations, or because they are required for concentration credit, or because they sometimes count for core credit, or because people are just interested in the field and would like to use up their elective on an introduction to that field. There is just a handful of classes that are really big though. In fact, let me refer you to the table of Enrolment statistics for this semester (accessible from Registrar's Website (<a href="http://www.registrar.fas.harvard.edu/))%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.registrar.fas.harvard.edu/))&lt;/a>. I did a few manipulations in Excel and here's what I came up with (I selected only FAS courses with undergraduate enrolment).</p>

<p>A total of 1116 classes with enrolled undergraduates, spring 2004 semester alone. Of which: -575 courses with enrolment below 6 -832 courses with enrolment below 20 -950 courses with enrolment below 35 The remaining 166 courses have the following enrolment:</p>

<p>35-50 = 51 classes
51-80 = 43 classes
81-120 = 30 classes
120-200 = 22 classes
200-300 = 15 classes
300+ = 5 classes</p>

<p>Average enrolment for all courses is 23.6 students; average enrolment excluding top 20 courses is 18.3 students.</p>

<p>Even more so: classes with 200+ enrolment are Expos 20, taught exclusively in sections of 15 or fewer students; Ec10, taught mostly in sections of 25 or fewer students; Economics sophomore tutorial, taught exclusively in sections of 5 to 8 people; SpanishCb, taught exclusively in small sections; and a few other similar courses (for registration purposes they are one class with the same number, but in reality you spend all your time in a small group). >></p>

<p>End excerpt. The whole post can be viewed on <a href="http://www.prefrosh.net%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.prefrosh.net&lt;/a> in the category "Academics" under "Big School, Small Classes"</p>

12

<p>Remember, though, that as long as one student registers for a course at Harvard, the course will be offered. That's not the case at most colleges, which cancel courses if there aren't many students who enroll in them.</p>

<p>In addition, a student can study anything that they wish to at Harvard as long as they find a faculty member who's willing to teach that to them as an independent study. It is not at all hard to find someone willing to do that.</p>

<p>In addition, the Harvard course catalogue has more than 1,000 course available for undergraduates. It is an amazing banquet of options.</p>

13

<p>Re a couple questions/comments above:</p>

<p>--No, "academics" - a term that, I think, some would likely define more broadly than others - is not the only thing I'm concerned about. And even if it were, I'm not sure that it's something that can meaningfully be considered in isolation in any event. If, for example, a student had brilliant professors but felt unhappy and adrift, I think it's doubtful that her academic work would be very inspired.</p>

<p>--Re why I initiated this thread here, as opposed to the LACs' boards or a more general board: As I said at the outset, I feel as though I have a pretty good handle on the arguable advantages of the LACs. What I'm trying to get at here, specifically, are the potential advantages of Harvard. Hence the location of this thread. (Obviously, anyone could initiate a similar thread elsewhere if they felt so inclined.)</p>

14

<p>The "revealed preference" survey and other similar papers say it best: the reason that the nation's best college students overwhelmingly choose Harvard if the choice is open to them is that they prefer to associate with their peers. Undoubtedly, those so motivated are those who are the most self confident and the most ambitious.</p>

<p>"Nurturing" it is not - in the sense of the dean having you up to the house for milk and cookies on Sunday night.</p>

<p>"Challenging" it is - since you will be associating with many of the nation's top students - both in the classroom and in extra curricular activities - and be exposed to some of the nation's most eminent scholars.</p>

<p>Harvard graduates are, by every measure, among the nation's most loyal and most active on behalf of their alma mater. </p>

<p>Harvard students, also, are happy with their choice - as demonstrated by the fact that a higher fraction stay to earn their degree than at any other college in the United States of America. </p>

<p>Do they ***** and moan about anything and everything - including the lack of Lucky Charms on the breakfast table? Sure. But it has ever been thus - since the first food riot in 1638, when they claimed they were being served watery beer. If they were easy to please, they wouldn't be Harvard students.</p>

<p>Nine out of 10 top students who get into Harvard and into the top LACs choose Harvard. Those who don't - and their rationalizing parents - have, for generations, been waxing poetic about the LACs allegedly smaller class sizes (they aren't) and the old canard about "classes taught by TAs at Harvard vs full professors who are all excellent teachers at LACs (neither of which is true.).</p>

<p>The top LACs have survived for generations as "second choice" schools for those who are not admitted to HYP, and they continue to serve this function well. But to rationalize that the education received - broadly described - is superior in any way is dubious - except for kids who are timid about facing challenges, scared of crowds, and more comfortable in remote, rural settings.</p>

<p>I can understand how parents such as "casualresponder" can say she and her husband went to LACs and were happy and thus are inclined to favor the same path for their son and daughter. But I respectfully urge other parents to encourage bright, ambitious offspring to aim for the top, and don't be swayed by the "ax to grind" propaganda they get from the little places.</p>

<p>It may be another fine old American tradition to take the top dog down a peg, but let's understand that instinct for what it is.</p>

15

<p>epistrophy:</p>

<p>Again, it really depends on the student. It does not matter a great deal if the class has 15 or 50 students if your child is shy and hangs back and does not initiate conversations. And if your child is outgoing, s/he will approach the prof or TF after class, go to their office hours, send them email, etc... S#2 has audited a class of 70+, a class of 10 as well as a class of 30. Each time, he has talked to the profs and the TFs. One of them eventually wrote recs for him.
S#1 was at a LAC. S#1 is more reticent than S#2, which is why he applied only to LACs. I don't recall his mentioning milk and cookies (though S#2 was invited to an end-of the-year party at the house of a prof whose course he audited), and the advising S#1 got left something to be desired (there was some turnover of administratrors, new regulations, profs going on leave). As well, he was shut out of some courses, as I mentioned before. So, his experience was a bit mixed. The classes themselves and the profs were excellent.</p>

16

<p>"But I respectfully urge other parents to encourage bright, ambitious offspring to aim for the top, and don't be swayed by the "ax to grind" propaganda they get from the little places"</p>

<p>As a fellow alum, I agree with virtually all of Byerly's post except for the above. Not every bright, ambitious student with a Harvard admit should go to Harvard.</p>

<p>It really is a very personal choice that I think parents should leave up to the student. Some bright, ambitious students truly do want the kind of nurturing environment that LACs offer. Others are more drawn to the passionately intense broad academic and extracurricular environment that Harvard offers.</p>

<p>My advice would to parents whose kids are in the position of choosing between a place like Harvard and an excellent LAC would be to have the students visit both places again and then make a decision based on what they want out of their college experiences.</p>

17

<p>There is much to consider when weighing Harvard and an elite LAC. Since you have heard just about all of the pluses from the school's elder proponents, I hope to offer another perspective.
From my view, the single greatest difference between Harvard and an LAC is UNDERGRADUATE FOCUS. I highlighted this because it is a huge issue with so many of us. Two thirds of Harvard's student population is made up of much older grad students (students who have typically been in the work place before entering grad school). So as the parent of a 17 or 18 year old, you must know that Harvard is going to be do be dominated by students in their mid to late 20s.
That's quite a difference. At an LAC your child will get the school's best professors ALL OF THE TIME and it is unlikely they will be taught by teaching assistants TEACHING ASSISTANTS. Further the interaction between Professors and students at LACs is tremendous (as it is even anong some of Harvard's peer schhols). But at Harvard, the interaction, as has been written about, is severely lacking. Students are pretty much on their own. My personal view (and despite what I have said, I have high regard for Harvard) is that the lack of an undergrad focus at Harvard has led to problems discussed in the following articles:</p>

<p><a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050329/ap_on_re_us/unhappy_at_harvard%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050329/ap_on_re_us/unhappy_at_harvard&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200503/douthat%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200503/douthat&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Again, I offer this as a counterweight to many of the posts above which either lightly touched or avoided the issue altogether.</p>

18

<p>You misunderstand what I have said.</p>

<p>I have never, EVER suggested pushing ANY kid to go to a school if he really wants to go elsewhere. Parents should not impose their prejudices on their children.</p>

<p>But on the other hand, there is a lot to be said for urging them to "be all that you can be" - even if this means aiming higher than the school attended by their parents.</p>

19

<p>Oh, then I definitely agree, Byerly.</p>

20

<p>Harvard v. LAC: Counterweight Argument </p>

<hr>

<p>There is much to consider when weighing Harvard and an elite LAC. Since you have heard just about all of the pluses from the school's elder proponents, I hope to offer another perspective.
From my view, the single greatest difference between Harvard and an LAC is UNDERGRADUATE FOCUS. I highlighted this because it is a huge issue with so many of us. Two thirds of Harvard's student population is made up of much older grad students (students who have typically been in the work place before entering grad school). So as the parent of a 17 or 18 year old, you must know that Harvard is going to be do be dominated by students in their mid to late 20s.
That's quite a difference. At an LAC your child will get the school's best professors ALL OF THE TIME and it is unlikely they will be taught by teaching assistants TEACHING ASSISTANTS. Further the interaction between Professors and students at LACs is tremendous (as it is even anong some of Harvard's peer schhols). But at Harvard, the interaction, as has been written about, is severely lacking. Students are pretty much on their own. My personal view (and despite what I have said, I have high regard for Harvard) is that the lack of an undergrad focus at Harvard has led to problems discussed in the following articles:</p>

<p><a href="http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...appy_at_harvard%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...appy_at_harvard&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200503/douthat%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200503/douthat&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Again, I offer this as a counterweight to many of the posts above which either lightly touched or avoided the issue altogether</p>