Harvard or Princeton?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Princeton University
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<p>I posted this on the Harvard thread, but I thought people on this thread would have something to say as well:</p>

<p>I have a problem. It’s a good problem – don’t get me wrong, and I do feel obnoxious asking this, but I am in a dilemma. I got into Princeton and Harvard, and I have trouble deciding which school to attend.</p>

<p>I probably can’t go wrong at either schools, but I don’t want to be in a situation in which I’ll regret the decision later on to attend one or the other.</p>

<p>Academically, I feel Princeton has the edge, since nearly all of its resources and faculty are focused on undergraduates.</p>

<p>Socially, I also feel Princeton has the edge, as most people at Princeton seem less competitive. The things I hear about Harvard’s social life is how competitive and cutthroat everyone is, which I think could detract from the quality of life.</p>

<p>In terms of location, Cambridge probably has more things to do than Princeton. But how important do you guys think this is?</p>

<p>Harvard has greater name recognition, but how much should I consider this in making my decision?</p>

<p>Princeton is fighting grade inflation, and in doing so, fewer students are receiving good grades. How will this affect my chances for graduate school? If most people at Harvard College receive A’s and B’s, I would presume it would be easier to get into a top law school than it would be from Princeton.</p>

<p>Let me know what you guys think! Thanks.</p>

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<p>I usually refrain from involving myself in threads of this type, but I can’t resisting asking:
Preguntas, to go to Princeton or to not go to Princeton, is that the question?</p>

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<p>PDaddy: I guess so. Princeton was an early favorite for me. However, now with Harvard in the mix, I am confused.</p>

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<p>I say Princeton is miles ahead of Harvard for undergrad experience. In fact, I think they are probably the best undergrad university in the entire country. Want things to do? Princeton is a great college town, and also only 50 minutes away from New York City. My brother goes to concerts and shows all the time, and for pretty cheap, too. Princeton's name recognition is plenty good enough for anyone's needs ... I doubt Harvard can offer you much more, while Princeton CAN offer you a better education (in my opinion). Also, the grade deflation at Princeton is a well known issue, so I doubt it will be too much of a problem in post-grad plans. </p>

<p>Ultimately, I think at Princeton you'll find a great, relaxed social scene, kids who are brilliant but not too stuck up, a fantastic education, and a future that is well provided for. In my mind, the choice was so clear that I didn't even apply to Harvard. Best of luck in your decision. I know my vote isn't that important for you, but I hope my input was somewhat helpful.</p>

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<p>I can only speak from the Princeton side of this, obviously, so I'm not going try direct comparisons, except to say that I think Princeton is much prettier.</p>

<p>Princeton deserves its reputation for paying a lot of attention to undergrads. Even a lot of intro courses and freshman seminars are taught by full professors. I think the profs really do care about students, and make themselves accessible. </p>

<p>In terms of location, I sometimes wish I were in a city just because places are open later at night. I don't think it has a huge impact on my life, though. There is a vibrant campus life, so even if I did have more options, I think most of my life would still revolve around the university itself. The colleges also sponsor trips to shows and events in NYC, and students do take advantage of the city if there is something specific they want to do there, even if it isn't a frequent occurance.</p>

<p>I think when we're talking H v P, name recognition shouldn't be much of a factor. The big H does represent higher education in the popular imagination, but employers are going to be equally impressed by both, and your neighbors "wows" will be almost as enthusiastic. One thing I find interesting is that, on the parents forum, the adults are much less concerned about name than the HS kids, one small demonstration of how well-informed people regard a whole range of great schools as equally great.</p>

<p>Grade inflation is an issue, but not a really dramatic one in the way its presented by its main detractors. So far, the effect seems to be on the order of 3.6 vs. a 3.5, not a huge decline. Some professors, esp. non tenured ones, feel pressured to enforce it, but some don't care and others never had 35 % As anyway. Since the policy only targets A range grades, the worst that will happen is that some A -s will become B +s, and the chances are that no particular student will have this happen to him more than a few times, since the problem is mostly confined to intro level classes. </p>

<p>I doubt that you'll find either school easy, even if grade deflation does make Princeton somewhat more difficult. Harvard doesn't have an official policy like Princeton's, but they have also made attempts in the last few years to scale back grade inflation. Also, since Princeton gives you a decile ranking, i believe potential employers/ grad schools will see how you compare to your class, though I could be wrong.</p>

<p>ETA - I forgot to mention, though again, I can't compare, Princeton students have been much less cuthroat than I expected - I almost never discuss specific grades with people, and everyone seems willing to help each other out.</p>

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<p>at harvard theres a greater diversity in the types of students and cambridge (right by boston) is a lot of fun... there are great opportunities for internships too. princeton is suburban... so if you like preppy, go for princeton. congrats for getting in... thats exciting.</p>

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<p>"Student life at Harvard lags peer schools, poll finds"</p>

<p>By Marcella Bombardieri, Globe Staff | March 29, 2005</p>

<p>Student satisfaction at Harvard College ranks near the bottom of a group of 31 elite private colleges, according to an analysis of survey results that finds that Harvard students are disenchanted with the faculty and social life on campus.</p>

<p>An internal Harvard memo, obtained by the Globe, provides numerical data that appear to substantiate some long-held stereotypes of Harvard: that undergraduate students often feel neglected by professors, and that they don't have as much fun as peers on many other campuses.</p>

<p>The group of 31 colleges, known as the Consortium on Financing Higher Education, or COFHE, includes all eight Ivy League schools, other top research universities like the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and Stanford, and small colleges like Amherst and Wellesley.</p>

<p>''Harvard students are less satisfied with their undergraduate educations than the students at almost all of the other COFHE schools," according to the memo, dated Oct. 2004 and marked ''confidential." ''Harvard student satisfaction compares even less favorably to satisfaction at our closest peer institutions."</p>

<p>The 21-page memo, from staff researchers at Harvard to academic deans, documents student dissatisfaction with faculty availability, quality of instruction, quality of advising, and student life factors such as sense of community and social life on campus.</p>

<p>The raw data used in the memo come from surveys of graduating seniors in 2002, but are the most recent comparison available and are still consulted by Harvard administrators. On a five-point scale, Harvard students' overall satisfaction comes out to 3.95, compared to an average of 4.16 for the other 30 COFHE schools. Although the difference appears small, Harvard officials say they take the ''satisfaction gap" very seriously.</p>

<p>Only four schools scored lower than Harvard, but the schools were not named. (COFHE data are supposed to be confidential.) The memo also notes that Harvard's ''satisfaction gap" has existed since at least 1994.</p>

<p>''I think we have to concede that we are letting our students down," said Lawrence Buell, an English professor and former dean of undergraduate education. ''Our standard is that Harvard shoots to be the very best. If it shoots to be the very best in terms of research productivity and the stature of its faculty, why should it not shoot to be the very best in terms of the quality of the education that it delivers?"</p>

<p>Harvard officials refused to comment on the survey, but noted that they are already working to address the issues underscored by the data. They also said their internal numbers have improved since 2002. President Lawrence H. Summers has also spoken repeatedly about the need for students to have more opportunity to get to know their professors.</p>

<p>In a report released last April as part of an ongoing review of Harvard's curriculum, the need for more interaction between students and faculty was mentioned repeatedly.</p>

<p>''Harvard College should be known not only as an institution in which students can sit in lecture halls to learn from faculty who make original contributions to knowledge, but also as a place where they may encounter, and challenge, these scholars directly in seminar and small class settings," the report said.</p>

<p>But right now, students can go through four years on campus with limited contact with professors. They often take large lecture classes, divided into sections headed by graduate student ''teaching fellows." Small classes are frequently taught by temporary instructors instead of regular, tenure-track professors. And in many cases, advisers are not professors, either, but graduate students, administrators, or full-time advisers.</p>

<p>''I've definitely had great professors, but most of the time you have to chase them down and show initiative if you want to get to know them," said Kathy Lee, a junior majoring in psychology. ''I've had a lot of trouble getting to know enough faculty to get the recommendations I need for medical school."</p>

<p>On the five-point scale, Harvard students gave an average score of 2.92 on faculty availability, compared to an average 3.39 for the other COFHE schools. Harvard students gave a 3.16 for quality of instruction, compared to a 3.31 for the other schools, and a 2.54 for quality of advising in their major, compared to 2.86 for the other schools.</p>

<p>Students gave Harvard a 2.62 for social life on campus, compared to a 2.89 for the other schools, and a 2.53 for sense of community, compared to 2.8.</p>

<p>Harvard Dean of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences William C. Kirby recently said that Harvard's ratio of students to tenured and tenure-track faculty is 11-to-1, compared to an 8-1 ratio at Princeton University. Harvard has already boosted the number of faculty by 10 percent in the last five years, from 610 to 672 professors, in part to improve the student-faculty ratio. Kirby's plan now is to expand the faculty to 750 by 2010, and possibly to 800 after that.</p>

<p>In the meantime, Harvard is trying to offer more intimate classroom settings. For example, four years ago it offered only about 30 small seminar classes for freshmen. This year there are 115, most taught by senior faculty, according to Dean of the College Benedict H. Gross.</p>

<p>Students' experiences also vary widely from department to department. Some of the most popular -- and thus overburdened -- majors, such as economics or government, have fairly low ratings on internal student surveys, while small majors like classics and philosophy get better ratings.</p>

<p>On the social front, students complain that Harvard lacks places where students can socialize and has so many rules that it is difficult to hold a party on-campus, where almost all undergraduates live.</p>

<p>The Harvard administration has also been working hard in the last few years to improve social life. The school has been experimenting with popular ''pub nights" on some Fridays, and has allowed campus parties to stay open an hour later, until 2 a.m. They have tried other novelty programs from dodge ball tournaments to speed dating, and doubled the amount of athletic equipment in the main gym used by undergraduates.</p>

<p>Many students are pessimistic that the curriculum review is going to change what some call ''a culture of mutual avoidance," where students and faculty often don't make an effort to meet. Professors and students alike also say there's a hurried and stressful atmosphere on campus that can get in the way of building mentor relationships. After all, Harvard has been trying to improve teaching and advising for years, long before the current administration.</p>

<p>Matt Glazer, president of the student government, said it's hard to have much confidence in the administration's commitment to fixing the problems.</p>

<p>''When the system that has dismal advising is giving recommendations on how to make advising better, the question is why aren't they doing that right now?" Glazer said.</p>

<p>Marcella Bombardieri can be reached at <a href="mailto:bombardieri@globe.com">bombardieri@globe.com</a>.</p>

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<p>Look at it this way, Preguntas.</p>

<p>Princeton has the best undergraduate program. Harvard has the best graduate school program. You are interested in applying to grad school someday. Grad schools don't like to inbreed -- that is, take undergrads from their own school.</p>

<p>So, go to Princeton and you'll have a better chance at Harvard grad than Harvard students do. It's the best of both worlds.</p>

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<p>Yep, there's no better combination than Princeton undergraduate and then Harvard graduate school. In fact, Harvard is the #1 grad school destination for Princeton undergraduates (followed by Columbia, Stanford, and Yale). </p>

<p><a href="http://web.princeton.edu/sites/career/data/surveys/CareerSurveyReport2005.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.princeton.edu/sites/career/data/surveys/CareerSurveyReport2005.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>With regards to prestige, as an employer, the difference between Princeton and Harvard is not nearly significant enough that you'd hire one over the other on basis of school.</p>

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<p>Princeton = undergrad</p>

<p>Harvard/Yale = grad</p>

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<p>in 2005-2006 Harvard Law School had 232 Harvard undergrads enrolled, 126 undergrads from Yale , and 65 from Princeton, 51 from Brown, 33 from Dartmouth</p>

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<p>why don't you post the numbers for the #1 and #2 law school as well, instead of just #3.</p>

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<p>I am curious too..if you have other law schools info publish it</p>

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<p>3 Best Law Schools (aka Trinity): Havard, Yale, Stanford. </p>

<p>Top 14 Law Schools: Trinity + 11 nationally/regionally acclaimed law schools like Duke UVA Berkeley NYU, Columbia , blah.. blah...</p>

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<p>Preguntas, many students find it hard to turn down Harvard. Students coming out of Princeton do very, very well with law school admissions, but realistically I have long thought that Harvard undergrad gives you an edge at Harvard Law, not because they're brighter but because they're the home team. I could be wrong, but I'd investigate that further. (The numbers above tell the story, although you have to adjust for the fact that Princeton undergrad is about half the size of Harvard College.) That's the advice I'd give my own d. If you do very well at Princeton you will have nothing to worry about, of course.</p>

<p>Re the undergrad experience, Princeton students are incredibly gregarious. My d has made so many wonderful friendships, done undergrad research, and received all sorts of money for travel and internships. Her friends at Harvard, aside from one whom I would describe as extremely aggressive, describe it as "ok" and say they miss high school. This is our anecdotal experience. You need to be outgoing and confident at either school, but probably more so at Harvard. </p>

<p>So I guess my post</p>

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<p>The reason why the undergrad schools for Harvard Law students get quoted so much is that Harvard publishes that info plainly on its website. Lots of people, including me, would be eager to read similar stats for all the top law schools, but except for Harvard they don't publish it - or if they do it's sure not easy to find.</p>

<p>The Harvard Law School numbers:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.law.harvard.edu/admissions/jd/colleges.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>Sorry, I forgot to end my post. What I wanted to say was I sought in my post not to be partisan and I fear I may have just confused you.</p>

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<p>Not really half the size. More like about 70% the size. P ~ 4700 undergrads. H ~ 6600 undergrads.</p>

<p>However, I agree with the point about the "home team."</p>

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<p>unfortunately for Princeton undergrads it has no home field [med, law, or bus schools] on which to play....if Harvard Law screws with the number of Yale applicants it accepts Yale Law will start screwing applicants from Harvard...Princeton has nothing to trade...it may not be just or warranted but your chances of gettting into a good professional school are better if you go to Yale of Harvard or even the other Ivys with professional schools..even smaller Dartmouth College has #1 ranked Tuch business school....Princeton is in the same boat as the top LACs...their students may be as accomplished but yale and harvard does better at placement</p>

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<p>princeton students do well enough despite this "handicap."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.wsjclassroomedition.com/pdfs/wsj_college_092503.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=2081602&highlight=wharton+princeton#post2081602%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?p=2081602&highlight=wharton+princeton#post2081602&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>