Harvard or Yale? Any advice will be much appreciated!

Parent Cafe
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<p>You must be an incredible student and person to have been accepted at both Harvard and Yale! What country are you from? When you say you are interested in "study abroad" I assume you mean a semester or a year away from Harvard or Yale, because attending school in the U.S. will be "study abroad" for you. Any idea what 3rd country you would like to study in? After your self description I can't help thinking there might be other schools where you would be a better fit than either Harvard or Yale. It is really unfortunate that being accepted at perhaps the 2 top schools in the country is a source of stress!! I'm sure you will be fine at either place.</p>

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<p>I have a S at Harvard. It is true that not many Harvard students study abroad for a semester or year. However, many students do not graduate in 4 years because they take time off for internships, travel/work/study abroad. In addition, there are some summer opportunites to go abroad.</p>

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<p>Oh heavens, the COFHE. Of course it hasn't been "refuted" -- there's nothing to refute. It isn't meant to compare one college to another, but to alert administrators to which aspects of the school are stronger and weaker relative to one another -- in other words, whether the academic experience was stronger than the extracurricular experience, which was weaker than the social experience, etc. If respondents rate their academic experience more highly than their social life, that means exactly that -- it doesn't mean that they are unhappy. The (non-controlled sample of) Harvard seniors who responded had a 93% satisfaction rate overall.</p>

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<p>Your statement appeared in a thread about comparing Harvard to another school, so I figured you were making a statement related to that theme. I don't think the COFHE provided support for the notion that Harvard students as a group are unhappy on an objective scale, either.</p>

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<p>I have some experience with both schools and admit that I prefer Yale. Here are what I see as differences:</p>

<p>1.Harvard has roughly twice as high a percentage of pre-meds as Yale and about one-half the percentage of humanities majors.(My source for this is an article in Harvard Magazine a few years ago.) Obviously, different students prefer one to the other, but I think this fact gives the schools different "feels." Personally, I think the higher the percentage of pre-meds, the more competitive the atmosphere. (I would say that the "feel" of Johns Hopkins, which has more pre-meds than either H or Y is more competitive than either.) I just honestly think the "feel" at Yale is less competitive. </p>

<p>2.As Hanna has said, all Harvard frosh live together . They then enter into a room lottery ranking their preferences among colleges. They enter the lottery in groups of students up to 8. At Yale, you are assigned to a college before you begin. I prefer the Yale system because I think that people make more of an effort to make friends the first year. At Harvard, you get assigned to a house as a sophomore and come in with the group of friends you entered the lottery with. People seem to stick with the group of friends they came in with. I think there's less cohesion or sense of community within the houses than there is in Yale's residential colleges, where nobody is part of a group when he moves in. I've also seen some Harvard kids have falling outs with their sophomore roommates and then have trouble finding another group of friends within the house to room with. That's less of a problem at Yale, because your first year you got to know all the other people in your class who live in the same residential college. The flip side of course is that you may not be able to live with the closest friend you make your freshman year at Yale, because he or she may be in a different college. Also, at Harvard, it's common for a group of 6-8 athletes on a team to go in together as a block, whereas that's virtually impossible at Yale. Again, the downside at Yale is that varsity athletes often choose to live off campus junior and senior year, precisely so they can all live together. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>While I personally prefer Cambridge, New Haven is much nicer than people who haven't visited recently think. It's sort of true , I think, that because New Haven isn't Cambridge or Manhattan, student social life at Yale focuses on Yale itself and the area immediately off campus a bit more than it does at Harvard, where people are apt to go off to a party at MIT or into Boston. Again, this is a matter of personal preference. I think that if you don't have a lot of money to spend on other activities outside of college, it's easier to be at Yale. If you enjoy seeing a pro basketball or hockey game and have the money to enjoy the city of Boston, then you might prefer Harvard. (While you can get from New Haven to NY round trip for under $25, it takes almost two hours (a bit shorter on Amtrack, but that costs more), so most people only do it a couple of times a semester, if that. Yes, there are exceptions; people who do it every weekend, but they are in a small minority, from what I've seen.)</p></li>
<li><p>Though there's not THAT much difference, Yale's weather is usually a little warmer than Boston's and New Haven gets less snow most years. </p></li>
<li><p>The Yale campus is smaller and it simply takes less time to walk from one residential college to another than it takes to walk from one H house to another. I think it's more manageable...especially in winter. </p>

<ol>
<li>Harvard has the "core" and Yale has distribution requirements. Again, this is a matter of personal preference, but I think it's a little easier to fill Yale's requirements with courses you actually want to take than to complete Harvard's core without taking courses which are of little interest. How this works out really depends upon your particular interests...so before deciding read the requirements for both. For many people it won't matter much; for others, it does. </li>
</ol></li>
<li><p>Personally--I suspect Hanna will disagree---I think it's easier at Yale to get to know faculty well than it is at Harvard. Don't misunderstand--Harvard faculty have office hours and if you WANT to meet them and take the initiative, you can do so. However, it's quite possible to go through Harvard without getting to know any faculty well..and I think you'd have to try hard to do that at Yale. </p></li>
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<p>I disagree with the idea that community service is somehow better at Harvard. I'm not saying it's worse--I just honestly think there's no real difference in the opportunities to do it at the two schools. Cetainly, both schools offer more outlets for it than any one student could possibly use. </p>

<p>As I said, I'm biased in favor of Yale, but I'm trying :) to be fair in describing some differences.</p>

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<p>Look, Hanna, you're getting to sound like Byerly. There ARE unhappy Harvard students. In fact, the COFHE survey reinforces some of the stuff that appeared in the Crimson, which I discount to a certain extent because of its unrepresentativeness but do not dismiss entirely. I merely said I don't know why they are unhappy, and I instanced my own son's satisfaction with his experience. He will be a Harvard freshman next fall. Give us all a break, will ya?</p>

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<p>The Yale campus is smaller and it simply takes less time to walk from one residential college to another than it takes to walk from one H house to another. I think it's more manageable...especially in winter.>></p>

<p>Hmm. For math/science students, the trek up the hill at Yale is a real downside. We read complaints about slow or missing shuttles. In winter, it must be a real bummer.</p>

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<p>Could you please point out where I claimed that there weren't? Of course there are! You made the blanket statement "I don't know why Harvard students are unhappy," with no qualifications, and that's what I took issue with. If you had said, "I don't know why there are some unhappy students at Harvard," I wouldn't have said a thing -- except possibly to give some anecdotes about unhappy people I knew, and what the probable causes were.</p>

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<p>"I don't know why there are some unhappy students at Harvard," I wouldn't have said a thing
That's what I meant. Sorry for the sloppy phrasing.</p>

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<p>Sorry if I jumped down your throat. No harm, no foul. :)</p>

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<p>My D is finishing up her freshman year at Harvard and IS a part of the student community, and this quote accurately reflects her experience too - a lot more support and cooperation than competition among the students. A lot of work? Yes. Competitive pressure cooker? No.</p>

<p>In general, she is very happy at Harvard as are the large majority of her friends. Yale is a great school too. I won't say a bad word about it (New Haven is another matter - much of it looked pretty crummy when we visited), but most of the criticisms leveled at Harvard just haven't proven true for my D.</p>

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<p>One thing that might be important to an international student is the preferability of Yale's schedule. Since they don't have exams after winter break, you get three weeks in the winter instead of 10 days, you get a two week spring break instead of a one week one, and you get a week off in November instead of just two days. With Yale's schedule, you will still be able to go home and not spend most of your breaks traveling.</p>

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<p>I've attended both (albeit some time ago) and would tend to agree with Hanna's first post that the two schools are very similar. There are certainly far more similarities than differences between the two. Most people who would be happy at one would be happy at the other - my view is that the best way of choosing is to spend some extended time at both and try to get a sense of where you feel more comfortable. If that's not possible, you can try to read about both schools, talk to people who have gone there, etc. This can be dicey, though, given how much disinformation tends to float around - in going through the college search process with my son, I was amazed at how shamelessly other schools and their partisans badmouth Harvard in particular. But at the end of the day, it's hard to go wrong with either, so you shouldn't really stress out about the choice.</p>

<p>My son ended up choosing Harvard. As best as I can tell of his reasoning:</p>

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<li><p>Cambridge v. New Haven. He's spent a lot of time on both campuses, given that I have taken him to alumni events at both over the years, and he just loves Cambridge/Boston. (I should note that while I also prefer Cambridge/Boston, I don't think New Haven is the pit that some make it out to be.)</p></li>
<li><p>Resources, particularly extracurricular resources. It just seemed that Harvard had a richer array of activities in my son's areas of interest.</p></li>
<li><p>The students. He really hit it off with the students he met in visiting. (I recognize this can be a little serendipitous, but he met a really nice group.)</p></li>
<li><p>Reputation. While in some sense I think this shouldn't be a large factor, it's hard to say it plays no role. Yale obviously also has a great reputation, but it doesn't match Harvard's, which is generally more widely recognized worldwide. Adapting a line from the movie Love Story, "going to Harvard means never having to say you're sorry." ;)</p></li>
<li><p>I don't really know how big a factor this was, but my son found the badmouthing of Harvard by other schools to be a real turn-off (I have to admit that I did too). In contrast, Harvard didn't engage in badmouthing other schools (I suppose one could attribute that to Harvard arrogance, but I think all schools should adopt a no badmouthing policy.)</p></li>
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<p>At the risk of making a long post even longer, I find it interesting when Yale proponents cite the assignment of freshmen directly to residential colleges as a relative advantage of Yale compared to Harvard. When Harvard proposed to do the same as part of its curricular review recommendations, the students overwhelmingly opposed it. The general reasoning was that students wanted to be able to choose their upperclass House blocking group from among all their friends in the freshman class, and not be confined to choosing from among those already assigned to the same House.</p>

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<p>mariela like everyone's pointed out, Harvard and Yale are both great schools- but if I remember correctly, pre decision time, Yale was your ultimate dream...has something happened thats caused you to somewhat retract that opinion? If this isn't the case, then i'd say go with your gut feeling :)</p>

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<p>I think another advantage of the Harvard approach to residence colleges is that, by housing all the freshman together for one year in Harvard Yard before moving them out into the colleges, it gives them an opportunity to form a larger identity as the Class of '08 or '09 or whatever before they move off and bond with their new college-mates.</p>

<p>At Yale by contrast they get segregated right from the start. Any given incoming class gets totally Balkanized by college. I think Harvard strives to strike a happy medium.</p>

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<p>
[Quote]
5. I don't really know how big a factor this was, but my son found the badmouthing of Harvard by other schools to be a real turn-off (I have to admit that I did too). In contrast, Harvard didn't engage in badmouthing other schools (I suppose one could attribute that to Harvard arrogance, but I think all schools should adopt a no badmouthing policy.)

[/quote]
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<p>My D is at Bulldog Days right now. She also commented on the Harvard bashing by everyone from the Dean of Admissions to a professor in a class she attended. It really hurt her feelings when people attacked her for even considering Harvard.</p>

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<p>My S LOVED Harvard sooooo much. He still has his roomies from Sophomore year with whom he has made such great friends. He has been in Upteen wedding parties, visits them regularly, crossed country with two of them in a small VOLVO...and still regularly attends "CHADO" the Japanese Tea Ceremony Society to which he became enamored in his freshman year. Needless to say..Harvard is NOT for everybody. You need to have a passion, a love, and a desire, and be a self-starter. No one is going to hold your hand and nurture you. You have to be self-driven and know what you want. There is really no great need for advising at the freshman level. These undergrads have their own passions and intellectual pursuits. If there are students at Harvard that are NOT happy, it is a personal thing...they haven't found the right environment for themselves. Your freshmen colleagues will leave you by the wayside if you can't muster up the fortitude and perseverance to stick with the curriculum. Happens all the time! Though their freshman attrition rate is quite low. Most people who are accepted to HARVARD do finally graduate from HARVARD albeit not in four years or less.</p>

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<p>Bandit, that's pretty funny re Yale's Dean of Admissions. We went to a talk by the associate dean, who is a Harvard alum and whose d attends Harvard. ;)</p>

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<p>First I want to thank absolutely ALL of you for your comments and opinions. Although I have not reached a firm decision yet, I am leaning towards one of these schools. Things started clarifying in my head...</p>

<p>A.S.A.P., thanks for your offer. I will come back to it if I need more info.</p>

<p>NJres, in regard to your questions:
-I am from Bulgaria; btw, I am one of the 6 Bulgarians who got into H this year, and the only Bulgarian who got into Yale. At first, I thought that being the only one admitted to Y from my country makes me somehow special, but now I don't know how to feel about that. H, on the other hand, has a very strong Bulgarian community.
-I would like to study in China or India, or some country in Latin America
-actually I have been accepted to some other places too, but I have ruled them out because of fin considerations.</p>

<p>cosar, about the "disinformation that tends to float around" ...I know what you mean; I beleive that this is very confusing. For example, Hanna said that there is very little competition at H, but I have spoken to other H students, and most of them say that at H "every day is a battle". I just don't know whom to listen to.</p>

<p>sucharita, yes, I beleive that Y is still my dream school...it is just that when I got the acceptance letter from H, I just could not shut my eyes and blindly choose Y. H is a great school, and I thought that it deserves fair consideration. After researching it, I actually came to love some things about it...and this has turned my decision into an ORDEAL.</p>

<p>The people here have commented on almost all aspects of the H and Y experience, but I find it somewhat strange that no one commented on the political science major at both. I would really like to hear some opinions on this. From what I have heard the pli sci major at H is stronger than that at Y.</p>

<p>One more question directed to everybody with experience in applying to grad schools and jobs:
Is it true that a H degree has more weight or is given greater preference than a Y degree?</p>

<p>Thanks again for your input, guys!</p>

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<p>Mariela, you're talking to current Harvard undergrads who say that "every day is a battle"? In what sense? Who are they? Are they international students who didn't adjust to the culture shock well? Are they obsessed with getting into a particular grad school?</p>

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<p>Mariela:</p>

<p>For certain fields, there is definitely some degree of competitiveness--that is true of all schools. I would say that pre-med, with its "weed-out" courses is quite competitive. But other fields are much less so, and again, that is true of most schools.
Yale has an excellent Political Science Department and a great program on China, but for the study of Chinese politics, Harvard has the edge. This is not only because of the many profs teaching at Harvard but also because of those who teach at nearby institutions--several of whom have Harvard Ph.D.s in political science and spend a great deal of their time at Harvard. The Fairbank Center for East Asian Research acts as a magnet for profs at nearby universities and for visiting scholars and dignitaries. It is named after John King Fairbank who is credited with establishing the field of East Asian studies in the United States (The Reischauer Institute is named after Edwin O. Reischauer, a scholar and former Ambassador of the US to Japan). Jiang Zemin delivered a speech at Harvard (which, I am told, was included in an anthology of his writings!) as did the Dalai Lama. Harvard has the largest collection of works from and on East Asia., which is one reason for its attraction to those who want to study East Asia. It also funds students both at the undergraduate and graduate level to study in China, Japan and Korea. </p>

<p>For more information, you should look up East Asian Studies, the Fairbank Center for East Asian Research, the Harvard-Yenching Library, and the offerings of the Government Department. All of these are accessible on the Harvard website.</p>