Harvard quotas????

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
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<p>@ehwo:</p>

<p>Are you implying it's a 'bad' thing if the names of people that have accomplished something are noticeably more likely to belong to certain ethnic groups?</p>

<p>That's like saying "Don't get too uppity, Apu..."</p>

<p>I absolutely fail to see how it isn't pure racial discrimination to compare the achievements of an individual to those of people with similar y chromosome markers as they have, and from that say </p>

<p>"We should give him a boost" (URM)</p>

<p>"This person doesn't need our help" (ORM)</p>

<p>In fact, I would argue that drawing lines of relative worth/merit/rights based on race is possibly the most arrogant and racist thing a person could do, and smacks of ugly and unjustified prejudice.</p>

22

<p>Please, don't take this article negatively, but it brings up some good points
Is</a> There An Asian Ceiling? (Originals)</p>

<p>also, be wary of the way they portray statistics and other information</p>

23

<p>In defense of AA (which hurts me, being an ORM), I read that in France everything is race-blind. However, this means that the number of minority people represented in French schools (and gov.) is incredibly low compared to the actual proportion of minorities in the population.</p>

24

<p>^ What kind of attitude is that?</p>

<p>That's like saying "Because there are this many of you, there should be this many of you in every sample set"</p>

<p>The requisite assumption is that what an individual deserves is what would best ameliorate the situation of his 'race'.</p>

<p>So, what? If a race (in the aggregate), generally does this, then I should expect an individual of that race to be just like that?</p>

<p>Saying an ORM kid just comes from a hyper competitive racial group and thus is less impressive in his achievement, and thus shouldn't be favored for his achievements in his admissions profile</p>

<p>...</p>

<p>reminds me of the logic racists use to categorize a black person as 'inherently' violent, because blacks come from a predominately poor environment, and are thus much more likely to be criminal.</p>

<p>Yes, you can say that the culture Asians grow up in pushes them to be the best in academics they can be.</p>

<p>Yes, you can make the argument that blacks have always been economically discriminated against, and that poverty breeds crime.</p>

<p>Sure.</p>

<p>But when I submit an application to a school, my 'race' isn't applying....and I'm not applying as a representative of my 'race'.</p>

<p>I'm applying as me.</p>

<p>Judging an individual by the color of their skin.......changing how you deal with someone on the basis of 'race'.....</p>

<p>IS RACIAL DISCRIMINATION.</p>

25

<p>Harvard selects whoever Harvard thinks is best for its student body. So there is no "boosts" because that would imply that Harvard has a strict standard or threshold that it must relax, which doesn't happen because no such standard or threshold exists.</p>

<p>So, sorry to burst your self-righteous bubble, but you will be applying to Harvard as "you" no matter who you are. And if you're one of the 80% of the applicant pool each year Harvard says is qualified, then you have a chance of getting selected if Harvard wants you for whatever reason. </p>

<p>Your previous grasp of the admissions process was flawed.</p>

26

<p>Really? </p>

<p>Wow....Now that you've said something based on pure volition or experience that I don't share, my worldview has been completely changed.....What an epiphany!</p>

<p>O!, Senior Member, I ask you with many displays of obeisance and wonder, to please explain to me, your humble student....</p>

<p>How exactly considering an applicant's race in admissions isn't racial discrimination and absolutely unfair.....</p>

<p>Or, do you claim that Harvard's Admissions is completely race blind?</p>

<p>There's not a lot of room for gray here.....either race plays a role, or it doesn't....</p>

27

<p>JHS, even if it helps out a good amount, I will still stick to me belief that is is inherently wrong. Thanks for reading my obnoxiously long post! Im guessing most URMs that get in are from decent socioeconomic backgrounds; therefore, AA does not help stem the problem. If the school they go to has a decent AP program (as they probably do if the URM was to get decent AP scores/classload/SAT II scores) then I do not feel they are limited in their resources. Yes, they might not get into Harvard with a 1900 if AA didnt exist, but they would get into a good school nonetheless and therefore there is no need to fret about their future success. The AA program acts like URMs need to get into Ivies to stem socioeconomic disparity. Not going to work! The ones who dont get into Ivyies will land a decent living nonetheless, and most of those (I am speculating) who get in/apply, are already well-off socioeconomically so admitting them will not necessarily help stem the disparity by adding new "underprivileged" URMs</p>

28

<p>From my own experience, I know of so many (SO MANY) Lebanese immigrants who make a good living in the US coming with little money after years of warfare in their own country (alot do not have college degrees) that still end up finding a decent living . Why? Because, they have developed an attitude of "the opportunity is definitely there". So when people tell me URMs are SIGNIFICANTLY disadvantaged because of their socioeconomic backround, they are wrong. Giving them shortcuts (AA, government money) will not help them because that simplifies the whole idea of life to does who get the benefits; therefore, they will not work as hard and possibly not make a better living. A lot of socioeconomically-weak immigrants have one advantage over URMs in today's society: they can compare their old countrys to the USA and "see the opportunity".</p>

29

<p>how important is it to harvard to get students from a diverse high school background?</p>

<p>for example, will the fact that no one from my school has ever been admitted to harvard help me or will it have no effect?</p>

30

<p>
[quote]
How exactly considering an applicant's race in admissions isn't racial discrimination and absolutely unfair.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Courts have already held that race can be considered as a "factor" in admissions decisions. Racial quotas may not be used.</p>

31

<p>collegehopefull,</p>

<p>My point is that a lot of these achievements can not be done without the privileges. I know one of the kids well, and I know Cold Spring Harbor Lab well too. I believe two of them had their work done in there. On surface you may see a group of supersmart kids, but if the chances are given to other under-privileged students, the results might be different. The winner I know, her schoolmate did not know Intel Talent Search till I told him last June, and I believe those two are one and two in their school. The other instance was one of the last year’s winners won the prize on math, but she only ranked 80th in her State. I personally show no respect on this award. But you will see a very different picture toward the fact.</p>

32

<p>bicyclekick,</p>

<p>It should not matter that much, as long as you can prove to them that you are truly outstanding in the way they want.</p>

33

<p>@ Bay:</p>

<p>Yeah, courts also hold that gays can't marry.</p>

<p>Courts have also held that blacks are about 3/5 human.</p>

<p>Saying that a large number of people/people with clout arbitrarily agree on something is pretty weak tea.</p>

<p>Also, I don't think any of the "SENIOR MEMBERS" <em>thunderclap, Lightning</em>....</p>

<p>Have explained to me how using race as a measure of a candidate isn't racial discrimination.</p>

<p>@ewho:</p>

<p>I absolutely agree that someone's achievements should be measured against how much money their parents invested in their education.</p>

<p>What I'm getting annoyed with is people's attitudes about RACE.</p>

<p>Someone's achievement in an area shouldn't be viewed as more or less impressive because of the color of their skin.</p>

<p>It should be viewed as more or less impressive on the basis of the opportunities they had.</p>

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<p>I pretty much second everything collegehopeful said. :)</p>

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<p>collegehopeful (and assorted others who've posted in this thread),
I'm not a Senior Member (not sure what the fixation on that is about ... ?) but here are my thoughts:</p>

<p>No one is using race as "a measure" of a candidate. Race is a factor - among many other factors, INCLUDING socioeconomic status - that is taken into account when admissions decisions are made. </p>

<p>You stated that: "But when I submit an application to a school, my 'race' isn't applying....and I'm not applying as a representative of my 'race'. I'm applying as me."</p>

<p>Well, your race is part of who you are, and part of who all applicants are. In looking at candidates holistically, there is nothing discriminatory about not being colorblind. </p>

<p>Further, since the purpose of affirmative action in admission is to ensure diversity in the university, the fact that some URMs come from higher socioeconomic backgrounds is irrelevant. If a black person comes from a a wealthy family, does that magically erase their blackness and therefore somehow make them"not diverse"? Setting aside the issue of money and the presence/absence of "disadvantage," people from different cultures are bound to have different life experiences, and bring those experiences to school with them.</p>

<p>People keep crying that diversity "doesn't just mean race." That's true. Diversity should, and does, encompass things like class, geographic location, public vs. private school, international vs. U.S. citizen, athletic/musical/literary/scientific talent, political leanings, hobbies and interests. But it's ridiculous to assert that because diversity doesn't mean ONLY race, that race can't contribute to it at all. </p>

<p>On the topic of "unqualified" URMs getting accepted to schools in place of "qualified" white or Asian applicants: Please tell me the magic number that makes an individual qualified to go to Harvard. I want a precise SAT score. Throw in a precise GPA as well. No ranges - tell me the <em>exact number.</em> </p>

<p>Once we have the cut-off line at which point any applicants below the designated score will be <em>automatically</em> rejected, it'll be really cool to see what fascinating people - OF ALL RACES - with cool talents, perspectives, and life experiences, have been tossed out with the unqualified URM trash. </p>

<p>No one is denying that on average, URMs have lower SAT scores than white and Asian applicants. But are the applicants with the highest SAT scores really all Harvard and similar colleges are looking for? Is that the only criteria that should be taken into account? </p>

<p>Do YOU want to go to a college that accepts people solely on the basis of that one number?</p>

36

<p>For me, it isn't the score - it's that I come from a fairly poor family, and, as a white person, I'm generally considered less valuable to colleges across the board because I'm not black/Hispanic/etc. As someone from a poorer family, I haven't had access to many of the things wealthier individuals do have access to; consequently, I don't look as good on paper as many of my peers. Diversity is important and I encourage it, but I do think it's a whee bit unfair that some people are more equal than others, so to speak. If a few of us are held to a standard, everyone should be. So, if there's a "white score" and an "Asian score" and they're both fairly high, I expect the score for everyone else to be similar, in a nutshell. It's just kind of sad to see ORMs and Caucasians be expected to surpass 2250 or whatever number (I, for the record, did not pass that number; thank you, math section), while URMs have a significantly lower number. Perhaps I'm just rambling, but that's how I see it. :)</p>

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<p>But that's just it, squaregirl. There is no white or Asian minimum score. There are white and Asian people at Harvard who scored above 2250, and there are those who scored below. There are BLACK and HISPANIC and NATIVE AMERICAN candidates who scored above 2250 (yes, they exist!) and those who scored below! White/Asian below 2250 doesn't automatically = rejection. If most white/Asian people at the school scored above 2250, it's simply because there are more such people in the application pool to choose from. </p>

<p>And also, if you come from a relatively poor family then make Harvard aware of that. They are constantly trying to find more applicants OF ALL RACES who come from lower socioeconomic levels. Such an applicant, regardless of race, is extremely desirable to them - possibly as desirable as a URM. </p>

<p><em>The admissions committee isn't stupid.</em> They aren't holding a poor white applicant to the same SAT score standard as a black applicant whose parents are millionaires, and then automatically letting in the black applicant solely based on race. That would be completely absurd, and I think most people on this board know that.</p>

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<p>squaregirl, they will treat you differently for sure. I will give you my side of story when I have time. But this year, it is extremely bad for anyone who don't have money. If 75% applied for finaid, certainly Harvard can not afford this percentage for the admits. Last year, Harvard and Princeton thought that they were rich enough to do whatever they wanted to do. Not anymore. They could just go back to their traditions to admit a lot of rich kids from private schools, also they don't like those cross-admits, which means that if you were admitted by Stanford/Yale/MIT, your chance is diminshing by days to get in Harvard.</p>

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<p>caramelkisses, please read
Is</a> There An Asian Ceiling? (Originals)
The sat of the average accepted Hispanic student at UCLA was like 150 points LESS than the average REJECTED white student. Go look at the MIT and Harvard decision threads and look at the URMs. They are less qualified when compared to some rejects on the average. I myself am a URM and benefit from this, and it's wrong. I understand where they're coming from, but I dont think AA is a good way to try to level the playing field. If they really wanted to level the playing field, don't use race as a factor; instead use the number of opportunities available to the student. That will increase diversity and make it a more even playing field than letting in underqualified URMs</p>

40

<p>Millerl1te,
You're still operating on the basic assumption that there's a certain number that equals "qualified," and that anyone below that number should be rejected. Otherwise, the word "underqualified" has no meaning. If you mean that the scores whites and Asians, on average, receive represent the magic "qualified" threshold, and that anyone below that threshold shouldn't be admitted then you're welcome to that theory. But by making those numbers the absolute standard, you're knowingly going to drastically reduce the number of URMs at the schools in question. </p>

<p>Now if that doesn't bother you, and the idea of going to an overwhelmingly racially homogeneous school appeals to you, I suppose that's fine. That fact of the matter is that there are simply fewer high-scoring minorities to go around, and if diversity is important to students and to admissions committees, then admitting some students of color who don't meet the white/Asian-"qualified" gold standard is necessary. </p>

<p>I understand that what ultimately needs to happen is the overall improvement of K-12 education so that URMs eventually score, on average, at on the same level as whites and Asians. But until that's fully underway and successful, we have two options: Racially undiverse colleges, or not choosing a SAT score boundary in admissions that will inherently lock out most URMs. </p>

<p>For some, the idea of living with essentially lily-white and Asian top colleges until the day URMs catch up is perfectly fine. I'd venture a guess though, that schools like that wouldn't be very desirable to most people, and would do a disservice to their own students. While they would likely have plenty of diversity of class, political leanings, talents, etc., the creation of what would be a de facto segregated college system for the sake of high-score purity doesn't seem worth it.</p>