Harvard SATs Question- limited test dates

Colleges and Universities A-Z Harvard University
1

<p>Greetings everyone</p>

<p>I have a relatively simple question- I'd appreciate any and all opinions.</p>

<p>I currently have:</p>

<p>2240 SAT (780 M, 750 CR, 710 W)
790 Bio M</p>

<p>I took Math II and Lit, but I underprepared for both (I'm an international student- my syllabus doesn't translate as directly to SAT IIs as I expect the American syllabus does)- under 1 week for Math II and no prep for Lit- and so the scores are unsatisfactory. I'm not comfortable with reporting them.</p>

<p>Here's the dilemma:</p>

<p>There are only two more available testing dates for SCEA apps- October and November (apparently this date is still acceptable- even though it's after the SCEA deadline)- and the second date (November) is during my finals, at a time when I'd prefer to focus on the finals exams (the date is between three relatively challenging papers).</p>

<p>So, bearing in mind that Harvard (apparently, I'm not clear on this) no longer requires two SAT IIs, do you think that I should rewrite Maths II and Lit on the October date, to get 770+ on both, or rewrite the SAT I to boost the score?
Also, as a secondary question, assuming that I'd rewrite SAT IIs in October, would the net gain in admission chances be significant if I take a bit of a risk with my finals in November and try to boost the SAT I on the second testing date?</p>

<p>I suppose I should contextualize the second question a little bit- I would definitely expect the score to increase, because:
- I only prepped for five days last time- I can dedicate more practice time now
- My weakest section- writing- was weak because of the essay (8), not the multiple choice (I only dropped 2 marks). I am a good writer (I won't list my english ECs- just trust me), but I hadn't taken the time to study the formula for SAT essays and 'game the system'.
- I wrote the SAT almost a year ago- I think that my intelligence has increased since then- to be blunt. I'd expect to be more proficient.</p>

<p>One last thing- before someone comments on this- I know that my SAT I score is within Harvard's 'median range' and is competitive. However, the way I view the 2240 is that, whilst it is acceptable and competitive, it isn't a 'plus'- it doesn't actively help my app in the way that I think a 2350 or 2400 would- it's merely neutral. If anyone disagrees, please let me know.</p>

<p>Thanks everyone!</p>

2

<p>Your SAT I’s are fine. I would not bother rewriting them.</p>

<p>Your Bio SAT II is exceptional. Congratulations.</p>

<p>Harvard no longer requires SAT Subject tests, but my guess is that almost everyone applying to Harvard is also applying to a college that requires SAT Subject tests and will therefore be submitting to Harvard as well. If your M2 or Lit scores are 750+, you’re fine. If they are 700+, you’re probably OK, but may want to rewrite. If they are below 700, I would suggest a rewrite.</p>

<p>That said, I would focus on one. More SAT II scores are not better. Pick the one that you can achieve the higher score. Don’t let your prep come in the way of preparing for your finals. Good luck.</p>

3

<p>Thank you for the response! Do you not think that there would be a slight increase in my admissions chances if I can increase the SAT I? I figured that the most compelling applications would have all aspects actively increasing chances, as opposed to a few neutral aspects and a few actively beneficial aspects. As far as Math II vs literature is concerned, I’m unsure as to which test I’m naturally better at, so it’s hard to pick one. Perhaps I’ll do some past papers and then pick on the basis on my performance… Thank you!</p>

4

<p>The slight increase in your admissions chances will come in the strength of your overall application. Focus on crafting some awesome essays. A 20+ point change in SAT I will not swing the pendulum.</p>

5

<p>I thought that I could probably get a 100 point increase- but I do see your point. Alright, thanks.</p>

6

<p>^^ Harvard is on record as saying that differences of 100 points or more do not matter. That’s because once your test scores are within Harvard’s range – and yours are – other more subjective factors come into play, such as your essays, teacher recommendations and EC’s. Your scores are absolutely fine. I wouldn’t bother retaking any of them again. </p>

<p>But, I would try to be realistic in accessing your chances. Although Harvard doesn’t have quotas, they only accept about 160 to 200 International students per year (about 10% to 12% of the overall number of accepted students). So, your chances as an International student are much less than those for US students, as you are competing with thousands of brilliant students from Canada, Asia, Australia, Europe, the Middle East and South America for those 160 to 200 beds… Have you seen this spread sheet? <a href=“http://www.hio.harvard.edu/abouthio/statistics/pdf/StudentsSchoolCountryRank13-14.pdf”>http://www.hio.harvard.edu/abouthio/statistics/pdf/StudentsSchoolCountryRank13-14.pdf&lt;/a&gt; COLUMN B (College) is the undergraduate school. How many students from your country are at Harvard? Those are totals, so divide by 4 to get an idea of how many freshman from each country have been admitted in the past.</p>

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<p>^^ As per usual, you’ve somehow managed to scour the internet to find some data that unequivocally answers the question. Thank you, I appreciate it. </p>

<p>As far as that spreadsheet is concerned- I remain unperturbed. I’ve seen it a few times, and I think I have some pretty good chances. </p>

8

<p>^^^ Here’s the quote in its entirety: <a href=“Guidance Office: Answers From Harvard's Dean, Part 2 - The New York Times”>Guidance Office: Answers From Harvard's Dean, Part 2 - The New York Times;

<p>

</p>

9

<p>I’m glad you posted this, because the following quote directly addresses the idea I’ve been alluding to this whole time:</p>

<p>“Standardized tests are most useful to us in the decision-making process when they are extremely high or low—and even then many other factors come into play.”</p>

<p>Surely, if I could bump the SAT I from 2240 to 2350+ then the score would be considered to be ‘extremely high’ and would start to carry significance on the application- as opposed to being a mere non-entity that just ticks the ‘within range’ box? This has been my thinking from the start. There’s some kind of disjunct between the statement that ‘50-100 point differences don’t matter’ and ‘extremely high and low scores do matter’, as the difference between a ‘high’ and ‘extremely high’ score may well only be 100-120 points. Do you have any insights into this matter?</p>

<p>Thanks for posting the source article. </p>

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<p>Your score of 2240 is already higher than the average Harvard student in this recent survey: <a href=“The Harvard Crimson | Class of 2017”>http://features.thecrimson.com/2013/frosh-survey/admissions.html&lt;/a&gt;

Look at the scattergram, as it nicely highlights how more than half the class had an unweighted 4.0 GPA at their high school regardless of test scores. To me that implies that Harvard puts more weight – or slightly more weight, however you want to read the data – on a student’s unweighted GPA at their high school as opposed to test scores, no matter how high they are.</p>

<p>So, rather than worry about your test scores, be more concerned about your GPA, teacher recommendations and essays!!!</p>

11

<p>That’s a good point. As an international student, I don’t have a GPA- but I’m assuming that the sentiment is the same regardless. </p>

<p>A quick question as a side note- surely the average SAT is deflated by hooked admits (i.e. athletes) that have lower minimum requirements, and so isn’t indicative of considerations that would be given to my scores as an unhooked applicant?</p>

12

<p>While recruited athletes at other colleges tend to have lower test scores, that’s not true at Harvard. Recruited Athletes at Harvard are thought to have an Academic Index of over 220. If you play around with the AI (<a href=“http://www.collegeconfidential.com/academic_index.htm”>http://www.collegeconfidential.com/academic_index.htm&lt;/a&gt;), that means that a recruited athlete with a 3.5 GPA would need SAT’s of 750 on each subsection and each SAT Subject test (basically your scores) to have that AI. So, no, I don’t think hooked applicants have that much lower stats than the average academic applicant.</p>

13

<p>I just had another thought.</p>

<p>“To me that implies that Harvard puts more weight – or slightly more weight, however you want to read the data – on a student’s unweighted GPA at their high school as opposed to test scores”</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Harvard has thousands of high-quality applicants, many of whom would probably have 4.0 GPAs. Supposing that you’re correct, and Harvard does care about 4.0s more than standardized tests, once you have met the 4.0 ‘prerequisite’, wouldn’t the SAT results then be salient details for admissions officers trying to choose between three kids with 4.0s? Obviously essays, ECs and recs matter and would probably always carry more weight than the SAT I- but in a hypothetical case of three kids with similar ECs (not hard to believe, I’ve seen about 10 kids on CC with incredibly similar EC lists), similar quality essays and recs, and 4.0s, surely the kid with a 2350 would have an advantage over the kid with 2200, or even 2280?</p></li>
<li><p>Would the general ‘rule’ that you posted above still be true for the aforementioned ‘extremely high/low’ scores? I don’t think that a kid with 4.0 and a 1800 would be particularly compelling- likewise, I do believe that extra credence would automatically be given to kids who score 2350+.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I fully realize that I’m nitpicking fine details now, and that they’re unlikely to ever have a significant bearing on admissions chances. I’m just interested, and asking questions is my way of understanding the admissions system.</p>

<p>EDIT: I just saw your response to the question about hooked applicants. That’s fascinating. Thank you. I suppose that I jumped to conclusions because I personally know someone who got into Harvard for rowing, and had a sub 2000 SAT. </p>

<p>2nd EDIT: To add to my point- I do think that there is a natural human bias towards ‘perfection’. Even though anyone who scores 2300+ (and possibly even 2200+) is probably capable of achieving 2400 (a simple case of not making ‘stupid mistakes’- the SAT is never truly ‘difficult’), 2300 definitely doesn’t give one the ‘warm, fuzzy feeling’ that a ‘perfect score’ does. I think that I have also read of a time when admissions officers were considering grouping SAT scores into ‘bands’ and only considering the band that applicants fell into, but they eventually decided against it- because of that human desire to credit the ‘perfect score’ - even when the commentary on the applicant’s actual intelligence is meaningless. I’m not certain that that anecdote is true- I just remember reading it sometime.</p>

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<p>Students with perfect SAT/ACT scores are rejected every year from Harvard, as well as YPSM et al – so having a higher score does NOT mean a student’s chances are better.</p>

<p>Here’s a true anecdote: When my daughter (2280 SAT) and son (36 ACT, rejected from Harvard even though his sister attends the college) received their acceptance letters three and four years ago, there were handwritten notes from Admissions Directors on them saying “Welcome! Congratulations! We hope you say yes!” In addition, there were specific personal comments all having to do with their essays. Comments such as “Loved your essay about your baseball coach. Your application was such a joy to present to the committee; after reading your essay, the vote was unanimous!” </p>

<p>Not one comment said “Wonderful test scores.” In fact, in all my years on CC, I have never heard of an Admissions Director from any college make that kind of comment. Test scores matter, but they don’t matter!</p>

<p>At colleges like Harvard which receive 35,000+ applications, Admissions Directors have about 12 minutes to read a file, which includes looking at your test scores, transcript, course rigor, looking over your EC’s, reading your high school profile, guidance counselor’s Secondary School Report, teacher recommendations and essays – and then making notes. They probably spend less than 10 seconds looking at your test scores. Yet, student’s spend so much time focusing on their test scores, when IMHO it’s their essay that I feel truly gives an Admissions Director that “warm and fuzzy feeling.” </p>

<p>Both my kids spent 3 to 4 months writing, editing, rewriting and polishing their essays – and they didn’t just write on one topic. They wrote on 6 or 7 different topics. It was only after having a completed essay on that many topics that they were able to decide which one told the most about them as a person. Good writing takes introspection and time. It takes thought, clarity and purpose. If you are rejected from Harvard it will not be because of your 2240 SAT, but it might be because your essay did not resonate with committee. </p>

15

<p>Bemusedfyz,</p>

<p>Higher is always better, to be sure. I remember once seeing Dean Fitzsimmons asked this question: Which is better, to take an AP course and get a grade of B, or to take a somewhat-lower level of the same course and get an A? He replied, “Take the AP course and get an A.”</p>

<p>That being said, if you think you’ll significantly improve your scores on them, retaking the two subject tests seems like a good idea.</p>

<p>But the case for retaking your SAT is weaker. Your score is not so bad that you feel uncomfortable citing it in public, and in fact, it’s really quite excellent.</p>

<p>Your seeming dilemma is that you’re concerned that a retake of the SAT may interfere with your final exams for the semester. But because your score is already very high, there isn’t really much of a dilemma. You will probably get a lot more benefit out of devoting yourself to getting the best possible results from your semester final exams than from retaking the SAT.</p>

<p>Your first semester grades are your last chance to show the colleges to which you apply your best work. I suggest that you don’t retake the SAT if it risks lower grades in any of your coursework. Your SAT score is already at the point of diminishing returns. Your grades aren’t…</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

16

<p>Thank you very much to both @gibby and @notjoe - this is exactly the kind of insight that I was looking for! I’m very satisfied with those answers. </p>

<p>Gibby, I have a question for you- something I just thought about- it’s unrelated to the topic of this discussion. You posted a link to the AI calculator, and I have seen you do so on many threads, when asked to consider a student’s ‘chances’. I’m quite confused about a certain aspect of the AI.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.provost.harvard.edu/institutional_research/CDS_2011-2012_Final.pdf”>http://www.provost.harvard.edu/institutional_research/CDS_2011-2012_Final.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>According to the link above, Harvard actually does not consider class rank. However, the AI does include class rank in the calculations, and I have noticed through fiddling with the calculator that changes in class rank drastically change the overall AI- at times it appeared to do so more than changes to SAT I and II scores. </p>

<p>How do these two contrasting pieces of information interact? Is Harvard ‘lying’ when they say that they don’t consider class rank?</p>

17

<p>Course rigor trumps rank. Particularly in high schools that do not weight grades, a student can be ranked #1 in his/her class with a schedule of basketweaving equivalents, while a student with a schedule full of AP classes can be ranked lower. Additionally the majority of US high schools do not rank students.</p>

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<p>Thanks, that makes sense. But, if that is the case, then what value does the AI actually have, when it is so drastically altered by rank, and doesn’t even consider rigor?</p>

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<p>^^ The CC Academic Index Calculator is a generic calculator for all colleges. When looking at schools, such as Harvard, that do not use class rank, select GPA from the pull down menu and use your actual GPA (rather than class rank). </p>

<p>The AI is basically a tool used for recruited athletes, but by ivy league rules, an AI is calculated on every student, as athletes cannot be one standard deviation away from the norm. Harvard’s athletic recruits are thought to have an average AI of 220. For non-athletes with a lowish GPA or test scores, it’s a good way to gauge your chances or rule-out Harvard as an option. If Harvard is not accepting a student athlete with an index way under 220, they are not likely to accept a non-athlete with a similar number. For more info on the AI, see: <a href=“https://www.mka.org/uploaded/college_counseling/Publications/AI_Guidelines_Worksheet.pdf”>https://www.mka.org/uploaded/college_counseling/Publications/AI_Guidelines_Worksheet.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

20

<p>Ahh. I see. Thank you for clearing that up!</p>