Harvard Undergrad vs. Northwestern BS/MD HPME vs. Brown BS/MD PLME

College Search & Selection
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I was one of the students fortunate enough to be in the situation to make this decision. Although I told myself I would not post this and make the decision on my own, I have 5 days left to make my decision and am very, very confused as to what would be the best option.

I have already heard the “you can’t go wrong either way” statement many times over, and I truly am grateful for that, but at this point, I really just need advice. What would you do if you were in my shoes and why?

Specifics of each of the schools:

Harvard - no med school guarantee (so would have to take MCAT, maintain high GPA, etc.), plenty of research opportunities, well-recognized school that would allow for interests in cross-disciplinary fields to really be cultivated (Health Economics, Health Policy, etc.) and have an impact, Boston would allow for a lot of internship/other interest opportunities

Northwestern HPME - top 20 med school guarantee, no MCAT, 3.7 (regular)/3.55 (science) GPA requirement, 3 UG + 4 Med School (can opt in for an extra year of undergrad or a gap year or both), must complete all regular PreMed requirements, can apply out, Chicago would allow for a lot of internship/other interest opportunities, one of the top med schools in the area (as Midwest does not have as many research med schools as the Northeast for instance)

Brown PLME - top 40 med school guarantee, no MCAT, 3.0 GPA requirement, SUPER chill (do not have to complete all of the regular PreMed requirements), 4 UG + 4 Med (can opt-in for an extra year of undergrad or a gap year or both), cannot apply out, Providence is not really a huge city to allow for internships in other fields to be cultivated, Open Curriculum is really nice for exploration

In terms of how set I am on medicine, I am 100% set on medicine; however, I am also particularly interested in going into Health Economics research and Health Policy later in my life as well, which maybe Harvard would give a leg up on, to truly make influential public policy change, for example? Also, even though the guarantee is nice, I feel like I would still work hard to try to maintain high grades, be involved in extracurriculars, and do some research on the side. Definitely though, not having to take the MCAT and doing the applications is NICE.

So, what are everyone’s thoughts? (Also, I know not to base my decision based off of a forum lol, I just wanted to hear everyone’s opinions. Additionally, I know there are others in this situation as well who would benefit from this post).

Thanks again!

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Are there significant cost differences for undergraduate and undergraduate + medical school?

Brown with just a 3.0 college GPA requirement will be the least stressful path to medical school, particularly with Brown’s high grade inflation and open curriculum.

A 3.7 college GPA (to retain the Northwestern assurance or to be competitive applying to medical school the usual way) is generally a lot harder than a 3.7 high school GPA.

Remember that the regular way of applying to medical school involves doing dozens of applications at thousands of dollars in cost hoping to get one admission (fewer than half of applicants get any admission). This after chasing grades in college (possibly foregoing academic enrichment opportunities that may carry grade risk due to being harder) and doing extensive MCAT prep.

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Orgo pass fail at Brown is a premed dream. A semester abroad is possible too. And the liberal arts major of some sort like history or something like public health might be kind of a nice path versus the hard science route.

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This is entirely dependent on who you are. Do you like competition, can you work hard over a sustained period of time? Do you like putting a lot of effort in? Are you detailed oriented? Do you want to rise to the top of your field? If so then it would go Harvard, Northwestern, Brown. If you answer no to any of these then its Brown, Northwestern, Harvard. Only you know yourself well enough to make this decision. By any measure it would be far better to ask someone who knows you well then anyone here on CC.

P.S. My guess is just from the fact you are coming here to ask is that you should go to Brown.

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Thank you for the responses @ucbalumnus and @privatebanker

The cost is the same among all three schools, and I am planning to major in something related to Economics, International Relations, Public Policy, or Public Health (i.e. something that is not Hard Sciences), regardless of which school I attend. I think it’s important to have different perspectives and background to complement the field that one hopes to pursue.

What exactly makes Orgo so difficult? Also, what would your ranking of my three options be and why?

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Also, in terms of foregoing the MCAT and (in particular) not taking all of the PreMed classes as student in the Brown PLME program, I feel like I would not be as prepared as someone who has just done those things once I get to med school. But I have also heard that the content of med school is not really related to PreMed material and MCAT material, anyways, so it shouldn’t really make that much of a difference?

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I am not a doctor or in a health-related field, but I would choose between Brown or Northwestern. Already into med school seems to be too good to pass up. Given your accomplishments, the grade reqs at NU do not seem like a big risk. Brown seems to be the more relaxed experience, but if you think 8 years in Providence would make you go stir crazy, NU is a great option. Then again, I am sure you would do great going to Harvard, but it would be more stressful to take the MCAT and apply to med school.

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The term hard science does not mean more difficult. It’s used to delineate between stem and social sciences. FYI.

What makes orgo so hard? You’d have to ask an organic chemist or former premed.

I would go to Brown. It’s an excellent school and great city. Plus you can use the next four years to explore. Take a class at RISD while you’re there. And go overseas. These usually aren’t options for the non plme premed. You can get a 3.0 at brown, no problem. Take something different. Take Russian or Chinese. Pass fail. You don’t have to try and impress a committee or another round of admissions. Or an mcat.

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@CU123 I appreciate your rankings and the questions. To be honest, I have been leaning (albeit slightly) Harvard, but I am being told that this is not really advisable as med school admissions have almost become a crapshoot and “a bird in hand is worth than two in the bush” or whatever. I know that I will continue to work just as hard as I have inhigh school, but as someone who went to a public high school, I definitely know that my experience was a “big fish in smallish pond” type of thing. Additionally, I have also been told that in order to stand out to med school, one is better advised to go to a state school where they can really stand out, rather than a school like Harvard where everyone is talented. I suppose my concern is that I may be setting myself to work really, really hard (which I definitely and willingly will) only to find that I am inevitably set to end up at a lower tier med school when I could have easily taken a top BS/MD and really spent time on personal development and enrichment experiences. What would be your thoughts on this?

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@privatebanker I realize that “hard science” does not mean more difficult haha. I just meant that I am really trying to branch out and enrich myself by pursuing different majors as well (i.e. I will not be a biochemistry major at any of these schools). Thank you for your input, btw!

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I would spend time on personal development and enrichment experiences.

“I am also particularly interested in going into Health Economics research and Health Policy later in my life as well, which maybe Harvard would give a leg up on”

I doubt it. Both Brown and NU are essentially on the same tier as Harvard when it comes to academic prestige or any kind of prestige.

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Lol. Thought so, but couldn’t 100% tell from your response if you had misconstrued my earlier post.

Remember. Plme doesn’t make you attend Brown. If your ug record is as accomplished as you envision, you can apply anywhere. The guarantee falls away, as you know. It won’t matter.

I don’t see the down side.

And being a top grad out of brown med won’t keep you out of any residency or specialty in the country.

I would suggest you start to lose the high school ranking ideation as soon as possible.

Surgeons from university of nowhere scrub up with Harvard grads all day long.

1 Like
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Reading between the lines I am seeing Brown, and you are right in the fact you will be attending schools with incredibly talented individuals who may out shine you. So given that, JMHO is that you should go to Brown. BTW you get ANOTHER chance to compete against incredibly talented people except you have a guaranteed slot at a T40 med school. In the end it will be how you finish med school (not undergrad) that will determine your future in the medical field.

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My D has similar interests to you and recently accepted the Union/LIM program. In some ways a more difficult choice since AMC is not a topped ranked medical school as yours are. However, the ability to forego the MCAT and receive a Masters or MBA in health management at the same time was too good to give up. If you were my child and 100% set on medicine I would urge you to forget Harvard and choose one of the other two excellent options. Personally, I would suggest Brown, but either would be better than Harvard. This is doubly true if you are an ORM (Asian or Indian). The stats for admission to ANY US medical school are dismal and getting lower each year. Even excellent candidates with high grades and MCAT scores are finding difficulty. I would absolutely not throw away a guarantee of admission to one of these two excellent US schools.

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Brown!!! (I have no allegiance to any of those schools) - no one cares where you went to med school if you are a clinician (make your living seeing sick people). (it only matters if you are going into academic research and even then it’s not that critical) . Brown is notorious for grade inflation too, if you switch fields. Brown kids have some of the highest GPAs accepted to med school since the grade inflation is so rampant (Chicago among the lowest). Throw in some study abroad to break up being in providence that long. Accept it and be thrilled. A friend’s kid went to Wash U. with the somewhat guaranteed admit to med school, the kid hit the required GPA to get into Med school there but also got into Columbia Med school and went there. The point is it was very stressful environment for the kid (from the kids own experience) and in the end the kid went elsewhere (better med school) anyway. Enjoy life - it will have no impact on your income potential. If you get a 3.8 or higher at Brown (very feasible) you might be able to get into another T40 med school anyway if you really can’t stand it.

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If top-20 med school at a great location is important to you, NU is the choice (I think their admission stats are MCAT of 520 and Avg GPA of 3.9 with 2% admit rate!!). If top-40 med school is fine enough and Providence is ok, then Brown. The fact that you come to ask tells me Harvard may not be the suitable choice because to me, you should pick that one if you have no regret regardless of the outcome.

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Harvard and Brown are quite different environments, and you would obviously know where you fit better.
If you are highly competitive and hard working type, then you will be able to do well at H and apply to Med school.
More than 90% of Med school applicants apply after 4 years of UG.

If it were my kid, I would advise going to Brown, not only for the guaranteed 8 year program, but if you happen to change your mind about medicine, you would still have a great UG experience.
Congrats on your acceptances, and go with your gut.

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The two possible reasons you gave for Harvard - Health economics and/or health public policy - don’t even remotely require an MD. For those fields a JD or Econ PhD (or dual JD/PhD if you really wanted to load on the qualifications) would serve you far better.

Sure, it can be tough to turn down Harvard, but someone “100%” sure they want an MD should take the guaranteed med school admit and be very happy…

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I agree with most of the above posters. Select a "semi’-guaranteed top notch MD program. We deliberated quite a bit for my D1 - admitted to Harvard and a couple of other Ivies for undergrad. But at the end, Pitt’s GAP for their SOM was too hard to pass up. She is now in her 3rd year at Pitt Med (13th in the latest US News Med school rankings)… safe but wise choice from her perspective as well.

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Northwestern. You save one year of school with the catch of keeping higher GPA. You want to condition yourself for hard work at medical school anyway. Having a goal would be good.