Harvard has a pre-med committee which writes committee letters (commonly understood to be required for pre-meds attending colleges where this is done). Presumably, the pre-med committee will advise pre-meds with poor chances of admission that it is not worth applying, a common way that colleges with pre-med committees have high medical school admission rates.
Where are all the comments about ârampant grade inflationâ at Brown coming from? My kid at Brown is saying that class averages in her science and math classes are in the mid 70s (sheâs doing great, so no incentive to hype up that others are doing poorly).
All this talk about how easy Brown is, is very misleading. If you go there, you will be working good and plenty on your coursework. Classes arenât easy. You wonât be intellectually superior to your classmates. You will be among your peers, who are all incredibly interesting and are all engaged in their education. No one is taking any classes they donât want to, unless itâs required as a part of something that they want to study, so they know they Need the info in that class.
I donât think thereâs grade inflation. If Brown kids have a higher GPA, I think itâs a function of 2 things. I think the most important is that they are invested in their classes. The other is that it is easy to manage their GPA. This can be done by sitting in on multiple classes during shopping period so you can see if you click with the Prof and the materials before committing to it. Another is you can use the P/F option to avoid bad grades, but you have to exercise that option early on in the semester. Finally, you can withdraw from a class very late in the semester. But other than shopping period, youâre going to not want to use the other options much.
All of the above.
For example, when choosing courses at Harvard or Northwestern, you will be chasing grades (any grade lower than A- will be bad). You may encounter dilemmas similar to what the student in this thread is facing:
In comparison, at Brown, you are much more free to enjoy your academic experience without feeling that you have to grade-grub.
Of course, preparing for the MCAT is time consuming, and many pre-meds spend significant amounts of money as well.
Obviously, there are expected pre-med extracurriculars (although you should be doing them even if you are in an express program like at Brown or Northwestern).
In terms of doing applications, most pre-meds apply to 15-30 medical schools hoping for one admission (most applicants get zero admissions). With one medical school admission (most who get admitted get only one), you take it or leave it, with no choice between medical schools based on cost, ranking (which is not all that important in medicine, as opposed to law or business), or anything else. Applications also involve short notice travel to medical school interviews, which can be a substantial cost in time and money.
@melvin123 U. of chicagoâs average GPA of accepted med students is 3.64
https://careeradvancement.uchicago.edu/uchicago-careers-in/health-professions/pre-health-faqs
canât find the link but the average GPA of kids accepted from Brown (outside of plme) was a 3.8. this implies med school admissions committee recognize these differences. (Iâm not a chicago fan, but itâs well known schools like chicago and carnegie mellon are grade deflationary - which is not the same as âeasyâ or âhardâ necessarily.
and I never heard of what Banker said above, but Organic Chemistry is THE weed out class for premed so if you can take that pass fail why wouldnât you? 99% of doctors could not possibly draw the chair conformation of glucose if you asked them to. (which was like 2 weeks of O chem if I remember correctly.)
Class averages on assigments/tests mean absolutely nothing; itâs the final semester grades that matter. (If half of those 70âs were AâsâŠ)
I realize that Brownies gets a little sensitive about this, but Brown has the highest mean GPA of any college. (Yale and Pomona are also up there.) And what that means is that Brown courses, including premed courses, are graded on an A-/B+ curve, mostly the former. Yes, anyone who may be in the C range will quickly change to P/F.
But that is the point about the guaranteed admission program: a premed in this program can take Orgo and be happy with a Pass. All of a sudden you have many of your top kids (PLME students) gunning for a C- in the most important science course for premeds. At no other school is that possible. And by removing some the PLME P/F students from competing for the Aâs, life has to get better for those towards the âbottomâ of the class.
No one is saying the kids at Brown donât work hard. Its just that those on the margin, say a B+ and NU, would more likely earn an A- for the same work effort due to Brownâs more generous grading policy.
P.S. I tried to get both of my kids to apply to Brown, but one liked another school much better and the other kid was turned off by the tour guide who was a SJW and thatâs all we heard about for an hour.
In addition to the excellent advice you have received so far, here are some other considerations. First, you didnât say what state you are from. That is critical, because most premeds, even those from Harvard, end up at their state medical schools. Some states have fewer and some have more applicants per available spot, so your chances depend somewhat on what state you live in. Also, you can refer to your state medical school(s) as the most likely comparison with Northwestern or Brown medical schools.
Second, one possibility is for you to enter the Northwestern or Brown programs and then see how you do in Organic Chemistry and on the MCATs. If you are a very strong applicant, you might be able to drop out of the M.D. part of the program and apply as a regular applicant to medical schools. I know someone who did this from the Brown program. I also know someone who was in the BS/MD program at Michigan (which no longer exists), then transferred to another undergraduate institution, then applied as a regular premed, and then attended a top medical school.
Third, you need to assess how risk-prone or risk-averse you are. This is a classic problem in decision analysis, where you are comparing a safe alternative (Northwestern or Brown) versus a riskier one that has a potentially better outcome (Harvard plus a top medical school), bad outcome (Harvard plus no medical school), or something in between (Harvard plus a medical school you like less than Northwestern or Brown). You should assign utility values to each of these outcomes, and if possible probability values, to help you decide.
Wow, it hard to give someone so accomplished and thoughtful âadviceâ. First of all, it is unlikely that someone with your credentials and clear focus on preparation will not get into med school. I donât care what the admission rates are right now. You are getting into med school.
But YOUR quality of life and enjoyment of the next 8 years is important and you know yourself⊠do you stress easily about grades, will you be miserable with the med school application game always on your mind? If so, go to a combined program, BUT remember, at least with Brown, you can go to an arguably better undergraduate school than NW (both are great of course) and if you knock it out of the park there you can still apply to a different med school from Brown, including Harvardâs⊠i.e. take the MCAT anyway âŠ
The two med schools that you got into are awesome but not the top ones in the countryâŠyes NW is higher ranked⊠but I have to say, you seem off the charts specialâŠas a scholar⊠and might be someone that could go to H med school some day or Penn or JHU etc⊠.
If you are determined to be a doctor and want to have the least stressful 8 years of the three options, then Brown, for sure, is your best option. You not only donât have to take the MCATS but your gpa requirements are minimal as compared to NW and you can take some other courses p/f. AND you can still take the MCAT if you wish and apply to Harvard, Penn, JHU, Wash U⊠too anyway⊠(it is a possibility).
My guess is that nobody is telling you much that you donât already know⊠All roads lead to great successâŠ
My predictionâŠvery few people turn down Harvard⊠we will see you in the square?
Congratulations
Just re-read your description. I recently thought I read Brownâs description and you could apply out BUT you lose med school Brown acceptance ⊠but you can apply out⊠I thinkâŠ
@truthquest:
âbut I have to say, you seem off the charts specialâŠas a scholar⊠and might be someone that could go to H med school some day or Penn or JHU etc⊠.â
The vast majority of Harvard undergrad pre-meds who even get in to med school donât even get in to a med school at NUâs level. NU Feinberg isnât (just to pick med school #93 of the 185 ranked by US News) Central Michigan med school. And Harvard undergrad pre-meds arenât exactly those who fell off the turnip truck. Pretty much by definition, Harvard undergrads are âoff the chart specialâ, and look how many of them get to even a med school at Feinbergâs level, much less the very tippy-top med schools.
Clearly between Northwestern & Brown.
Northwesternâs âcan apply outâ versus Brownâs âcannot apply outâ should put an end to the debate in favor of Northwestern HPME.
Brown is NOT helping you with a 3.0 GPA requirement. Plus, if that was important to you, you would not have any of these three outstanding options available to you.
Northwesternâs GPA requirement has been misstated throughout this thread other than in the post starting this thread. Although I am a bit confused as Northwestern requires a hybrid GPA of 3.7 âregularâ (???) and a 3.55 GPA in science courses. (Question: Does that mean an overall 3.7 GPA is required or that something in between the 3.55 science requirement & the 3.7 non-science (or is it overall ?) requirement ?)
Northwesternâs requirement are asking you to do the best that you can do while alleviating the stress of the MCAT & of a fourth year of undergrad (complete undergrad & med school in 7 years instead of 8 years). Requiring you to maintain your academic prowess helps you if your plans change. And plans do change. You may do so well that you take the MCAT & decide to apply to the medical schools at Harvard, Stanford, Johns Hopkins, UC-San Francisco, Penn & Columbia in addition to #17 Northwesternâs Feinberg.
Brownâs low GPA requirement locks you into Brownâs medical school.
By expecting you to maintain a high GPA, Northwestern is doing you a favor; allowing you to slack off is not.
@Confusedcat Congrats on these great acceptances! OP being so accomplished probably does not need advice from average strangers like us.
I would agree with almost everyone who had chimed in about BSMD at NU or Brown being the easiest path to an MD, which most kids at this stage of life can only dream about. But OP did not seem to fit the stereotype of someone who just want to be a doctor as the ultimate goal. She/he wants to be a leader in medical fields and beyond, perhaps help to shape economic policy in healthcare. I think such ambitions have best chance to be realized thru Harvard than elsewhere. OP seemed to like what Harvard had to offer for his/her interests too. I donât know much about the BSMD at NU or Brown, but as a Harvard parent I can offer some anecdotal evidence why opportunities for OP may be more available at Harvard College. My kidâs roommate happened to be a premed. Besides the wonderful premed support she gets from the College, she attended a seminar taught by a prominent healthcare economist who was an architect in Obamacare. I can only imagine what a dream class it would be for someone like OP, sitting in with eleven other kids to learn how nationâs healthcare policies were actually made. My kid is taking a small econ class this semester taught by a professor who was involved in creating trade policies in the Bush White House. There are probably no better places to pursue interests in public policy than at Harvard.
But more importantly if OPâs ultimate goal is MD at an ultra elite like HMS, residence at Mass Gen etc, being a thought leader in medicine, engaged in healthcare polices, the Harvard College route makes it more plausible even though it will involve more work.
There is plenty of evidence to suggest that when it comes elite professional schools and grad programs Harvard degree will give you a leg up.
http://collegematchus.com/ranking-the-colleges-top-colleges-that-feed-alumni-into-grad-school-programs/
On the other hand, if OP is content with being an MD, he/she has pretty much reached the goal at such a young age and OP can indeed cruise a little bit in the next four years. In that case choosing NU/Brown makes more sense.
^ âOn the other hand, if OP is content with being an MD from a top 20 medical schoolâ
Fixed for you.
@jzducol: Again, the vast majority of Harvard pre-meds donât even manage to get in to a med school at NU Feinbergâs level.
That ranking you listed would be dominated by MBAâs and JDâs simply due to the difference in size of incoming class of top med/law/b-schools.
HBS takes in near 1000 every year.
HLS offered 968.
Harvard Med School took in 165.
âthe vast majority of Harvard pre-meds donât even manage to get in to a med school at NU Feinbergâs levelâ
Do you have data for that?
@mdphd92 Thank you for the advice. I am from a state that has 4 MD programs (two private, two public). Of these, one private is typically in Top 15 (3% acceptance), one public in Top 25 (4% acceptance), the other private in Top 50 (3% acceptance), and the other public in the top 100 (13% acceptance) - you can probably guess what state Iâm from now, haha. Honestly, I would be really super ecstatic to gain an acceptance into any of the first three of these schools, if I were to choose to go the traditional route.
Although I must admit that I have looked at rankings and such, I am not one to really base my ultimate decision on them. Particulary with Medical School, I feel like it is so standardized and the STEP1 Exam seems to matter more so that it really is more about the location, culture, and specific research interests than it is about the #19 school vs. #35 school. And when I think about this, I also think, âwell, in that case, I should probably pick Harvard anyways, since I really love the school and if getting into a top 5/10/20 med school is not my priority, I should be fine as I ought to be able to get into a top 60ish school with a Harvard degreeâ. Also, the thought of essentially committing to one location for 7/8 years seems like a gamble.
Additionally, I feel like BS/MD kind of are like âshortcutsâ to the process. If, as a doctor, I am ready to take a full life of preparation, stress (which I should learn to be able to take the positive way), and standardized testing, then what good does a guaranteed program do for me? Yes, I will be able to relax for 3/4 years, but if that is really what I want to do, should I even be interested in being a doctor?
But then again, I also realize that being a PreMed is HARD, to the point where so many opt out of considering Med School. Also, I know that many of these private schools REALLY try to weed out PreMeds as they want their applied to med school/accepted to med school ratio to be really high (versus a school that is relatively more manageable in terms of PreMed academics and a lot more students graduate with the PreMed requirements complete). Also, the other way to look at the argument is that, since I will be having a full life of stress, this may be a good time to kind of relax and focus on personal development and enrichment.
Ugghh this is SO hard haha!
@truthquest Not quite sure yet if youâll see me in the Square for the next 4 years, but you will definitely catch me there tomorrow for Visitas 
@Publisher You make really good points! As for the Northwestern GPA requirement, they want the students to maintain an overall GPA of 3.7 (so average among science and non-science) and a science GPA of 3.55 (so average among science classes will be a mix of Aâs and Bâs).
Why would applying out be that much of an advantage for a student who retains eligibility for the express medical school program?
Northwesternâs HPME GPA requirement of 3.7 overall and 3.55 science are listed in https://www.feinberg.northwestern.edu/sites/hpme/faq/index.html .
Brownâs PLME academic requirements are given at https://www.brown.edu/academics/medical/plme/sites/brown.edu.academics.medical.plme/files/uploads/PLME_Handbook_Class_of_2017.pdf . It is not as simple as a 3.0 GPA. For required biology courses, the student must earn an A or B grade. Otherwise, GPA is not calculated, but there may be some subjective evaluation of the studentâs progress (section V). Internal grades are recorded and considered for courses taken S/NC.
But, in any case, a Northwestern HPME student will be chasing grades when selecting courses, possibly deterring academic exploration and otherwise making more fulfilling academic choices as an undergraduate. If Brown PLME requirements (which the OP should follow up on to see what the subjective evaluation tends to entail) are less stringent, the OP would be more free to choose a more fulfilling undergraduate experience, instead of chasing grades.
@jzducol, look at post #24 by @StanfordGSB00.
2 out of 10+ Harvard pre-meds he knew got in to a top 20 med school.
Yes, itâs anecdotal, but pretty believable that those are roughly the true odds. Med schools have tiny intakes. Top 20 out of 185 med schools ranked by USNews. They all have acceptance rates in the low single digits and after all the weeding out during undergrad, pre-med applicants would be a stronger group than the HYPSM HS applicant pool, IMO.
So it seems plausible to me that NU Feinberg would reject the average Harvard pre-med undergrad.
^ @PurpleTitan How did someoneâs original
" I personally know of 10 plus students who went to HYP and did the premed track. They all ended up at fine med schools but only 2 went to a top 20 med school. "
become â2 out of 10+ Harvard pre-meds he knew got in to a top 20 med school.â ?
Regardless, I got your point. But thatâs just your opinion though, based on someone elseâs opinion, not data.