<p>My friend is debating between Harvard and Brown's 8-year Medical Program, which is pretty competitive. what are the pros and cons for both? all help would be appreciated (and please dont have some kind of argument over this, thx)</p>
<p>Are you talking about the PLME?</p>
<p>if ur friend wants a guaranteed acceptance into a premiere med school, then take the PLME....she doesn't have to worry bout studying for the MCATs and maintaining a perfect GPA.....but....it's Harvard!!!</p>
<p>Ivy League MD program</p>
<p>PLME is a prestigious program and if you are interested in pursuing medicine the guarantee of getting into medical school without the pressure of MCAT has some benefits too. PLME is equally competitive. Think twice before rejecting a ivy league MD program.</p>
<p>It really depends on the level of Harvard's concentration on biology/pre-med...</p>
<p>I know someone who was accepted into Brown's program, and it's phenomenal... if i was interested in medicine, it's probably the only place i'd go before Harvard.</p>
<p>AHHHH</p>
<p>Just thinking about your decision makes me freak out!</p>
<p>I got into both Harvard and Brown PLME. A Harvard student called me this week, and I told him about my choices. He said that he also got into Harvard and Brown PLME and chose to go to Harvard. The idea is that if you are accepted to Brown PLME, you are part of the top group of applicants, and as long as you keep on working hard in college, you shouldn't worry about not getting into medical school. He is going to Harvard Med next year.</p>
<p>Is the Brown PLME really that prestigious? I don't know too much about it. Is it just the PLME that is recognized or any MD from Brown Med school?</p>
<p>I would choose PLME in a second. PLME is a really amazing oppurtunity, and while Harvard is great, there is no garuntee for med school. No matter if you're in the upper echelon, it's no garuntee.</p>
<p>PLME has an insanely low acceptance rate...besides, PLME really is that prestigious... if you're sure you want to be a doctor, PLME is the best program in the nation</p>
<p>I, like the previous two posters, would choose Brown PLME because it guarantees a spot in a great medical school. If someone goes to Harvard, that doesn't necessarily guarantee that person will get into medical school; I mean, would all medical schools want their classes full of only Harvard students? - No. That being said, it's a great opportunity if you know you want to become a doctor. If you want to pursue other interests, then Harvard, hands down.</p>
<p>Brown's medical school is not "prestigious", nor considered good at academic medical institutions. It is # 40 on the USNEWS rank (Which is noteworthy for being outside the top 20 since med school rankings are probably the least pertinent). In fact, being locked into it would take away the choice of going to a better medical school, of which there are many. Go to Harvard and a better medical school.</p>
<p>Brown doesn't claim to be an academic medical school, as far as I know. Also, their ranking in primary care is #15. And considering that the majority of their med students are PLME grads who've never even taken the MCAT, I think their rankings overall are pretty good. </p>
<p>To shrek: the reasons that I've come up with for going to Brown PLME over Yale (not Harvard I know, but comparable) don't have much to do with the prestige of the medical school. The fact is, I don't want to spend the next four years of my life stressing out about applying to medical school, doing all the things that pre-meds are required to do, while possibly sacrificing things that I really want to explore while in undergrad. </p>
<p>To suburbian: Please know that not everyone is going to be like the student who you talked to. I think only about 30-40 Harvard undergrads are accepted each year into Harvard Medical School, and these are the best of the best at Harvard. Harvard does have a great track record of getting its kids into medical school- best in the nation I think. However, many of those kids are simply not going to med schools like HMS, JHU, Duke, etc. Many of them, in fact, can't even get into a "not prestigious" school like Brown.</p>
<p>I also talked to a current Harvard student who was accepted into PLME and chose Harvard. While she says that she doesn't regret going to Harvard, she couldn't give me any solid reasons to turn down the med program and go to Yale instead. She said herself that she doesn't know if she can get into a med school like Brown after going to Harvard undergrad. </p>
<p>In the end, it comes down to how confident you are in your own abilities, and how much you're willing to work for the next four years. What's nice is that you really can't lose either way.</p>
<p>About being pre-med:</p>
<p>The truth of the matter is that getting into medical school is a bottle neck for everyone no matter where you go to school. To even get your foot in the door you need a high science GPA (which is difficult even at schools with grade inflation because pre-med classes are curved--only the top 20% get A's), and high MCAT scores (also difficult no matter how smart you are because how well you do is a direct function of how much you study--believe me when i say you have never studied the way you will study for the MCAT). There are plenty of students at both Brown and Harvard (~1-2 out of every 10 who apply) who do not get into medical school at all, let alone a top ten. That being said, if you work hard and have the right numbers, you are more likely to get into a top school coming from Brown or Harvard, than from many other schools.</p>
<p>About Brown Med:</p>
<p>I give tours of the med school and there are plenty of Ivy Leaguers who are stressed out about their chances for admission--including students from Harvard. I think Brown is particularly attractive to them because of the student:faculty ratio (300 students, 2000+ faculty), the intimate class size, freedom to take electives across the university, and the general perks of being at a place like Brown (cultural atmosphere, film festivals, lecturers like Oliver Sacks and Bill Clinton...)</p>
<p>Brown is not ranked as highly as other medical schools because it is not a typical medical school--2/3 of the class comes from the PLME route so numbers like GPA and MCAT are skewed. Also, it is purposely kept small so it will never bring in the NIH dollars that a place like JHU or HMS will. But the most important factor (I think) in deciding whether a medical school will meet your needs is the match list. Each year, we consistently match a quarter of the class at Harvard (most of us want to stay in New England for some reason), and the rest at top programs around the country (UCSF, Yale, JHU, Duke, Columbia, etc.).</p>
<p>I guess this is a long-winded way of saying: no matter where you go, if you work hard, you will be successful.</p>
<p>Out of 80 students: from the residencies you mentioned</p>
<p>6 are going to real harvard residencies (MGH/BW/BI + pscyh) (7.5%)</p>
<p>0 are going to John's Hopkins (0%)</p>
<p>3 are going to UCSF (3.75%)</p>
<p>1 to Columbia (and 2 to the worst hospital in NYC, St. Lukes which is LOOSELY affiliated with Columbia but doesn't have Columbia attendings) (1.25%)</p>
<p>1 to Duke (1.25%)</p>
<p>1 to Rad-Onc at Yale (1.25%)
otherwise, Yale-New Haven Hospital shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as the above programs save for certain subspecialties</p>
<p>if you are able to interpret matches, look here and you'll see that unless this year is an abberation, Brown's match is good but well below top 10 programs like duke, jhu, columbia, hms....</p>
<p><a href="http://bms.brown.edu/students/matchlist05/%5B/url%5D">http://bms.brown.edu/students/matchlist05/</a></p>
<p>Then again, if you're a star there, it looks like you'll do well, but if you're average, well, it doesn't appear there is much cusioning to fall back on. </p>
<p>About the rigor of getting into medical school: if you can't get above a 3.67 on your science GPA and a 34 on your MCAT or whatever you need these days to get into a good medical school, then you shouldn't be going anyway. I guarantee that if you pull substandard grades through college and lie on your laurels of the PLME while at Brown, you'll end up at a second tier match in the middle of nebraska as well. It will also severely limit what you can match in - say goodbye to the coveted surgical subspecialties which everyone and their mothers want to do. </p>
<p>Now, if Brown is more your fit, if you think you'll thrive there better than at harvard, if you think you'll be happier there than at harvard (you probably would in my own opinion), then that is a good reason to go to Brown. I don't understand these joint programs and their lure. I find them more of a trap. Go explore college, take time off, have a great time, major in sanskrit, and at the end of it, if you still want to be a doctor, then take some more time off :), no really then you'll be ready.</p>
<p>crimsonbulldog:<br>
No one is saying that Brown matches as well as HMS, JHU, etc. And quite frankly, why would it? The majority of Brown grads are PLME who've never had to even take the MCAT, whereas the people who go to HMS are the cream of the crop who scored 35+ on the MCAT and managed 3.8+ GPAs in college. There's really no point in comparing the two. </p>
<p>I believe that the reason for some of the less prestigious matches can be traced to PLME. PLME's average SAT score is mid-1400's, and they accept people with SAT's as low as in the 1200's. I'm taking a big leap here, but perhaps the people with the lower SAT scores end up getting the more podunk residencies. Of course, there's nothing wrong with this. But people who end up at HMS and JHU probably scored 1500+ SAT's in high school. Like you said, as long as you're one of the top at Brown, you should be able to get a good residency.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I guarantee that if you pull substandard grades through college and lie on your laurels of the PLME while at Brown, you'll end up at a second tier match in the middle of nebraska as well
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I'm not sure who this statement was directed at, but I certainly don't intend to slack off while I'm in PLME. I want to do even more than what I did in high school to get into the program; my drive does not end with PLME.</p>
<p>crimsonbulldog, you clearly were never pre-med or know much about med school in general.</p>
<p>first of all, what it is the difference to you between a "real" and "fake" harvard residency (just out of curiosity)?</p>
<p>secondly, "if you can't get above a 3.67 on your science GPA and a 34 on your MCAT or whatever you need these days to get into a good medical school, then you shouldn't be going anyway" is a ludicrous statement as anyone who has ever been pre-med can attest.</p>
<p>thirdly, what's your problem with yale-new haven? they happen to have several top programs</p>
<p>fourthly, there is a johns hopkins medical match second on the list.</p>
<p>i dunno...whatever, it's silly to argue about things like this. at the end of the day, you posted a link to the match list, which is really the bottom line. anyone who is interested should look at it themselves (and perhaps make their own distinctions between "real" and "fake" harvard residencies). here is one that is two years old as well:
<a href="http://bms.brown.edu/students/match2003list.html%5B/url%5D">http://bms.brown.edu/students/match2003list.html</a></p>
<p>I went to Yale for "pre-med" and harvard for medical school and have actually matched... at a competetive residency in nyc</p>
<p>The real harvard residencies are MGH and Brighman, with Beth Israel trailing behind. Cambridge hospital, Mount Auburn Hospital are JOKES. You don't know what you are talking about here, trust me. </p>
<p>The John's Hopkins match is for a prelim year, the real match for that person was to UMD. Thus the person in question DID NOT ACTUALLY MATCH AT JHU </p>
<p>Having gone to Yale and through the match/interviews, I know that Yale New Haven Hospital is not a top tier institution nor does it ever make it high on the match list of top medical students save for certain subspecialties (like radiation oncology for the Brown Med Student and surgical subspecialties like uro/ent/plastics/neurosurg or the like derm/radonc/rad/ER). Yale New Haven for internal medicine is not considered a competetive match. </p>
<p>I stand by my assertion of grades and MCAT scores. College is nothing compared to the work in medical school. WITH grade inflation, an A- GPA should be attainable for anyone who thinks they can handle the work at a top medical school (i.e. top 15). How do you see it otherwise? Should medical schools give students the "benefit of the doubt" that in medical school their abilities will magically appear - that all of sudden, they will be able to handle the work, as opposed to throughout college? Come on, get real. Pre-med is a joke. You have intro courses in chem, physics, bio, math and a year of orgo. If you can't pull off A-'s, then go to podunk...</p>
<p>of actually interpreting the match list without going to medical school or through the match, one of the most impressive matches on the Brown list is University of Miami for Opthalmology. That is considered one of the HARDEST places to match for opthalmology, which itself is the third or fourth toughest match. Its these sort of matches, together with incorrect "name association" perceptions like Yale New Haven or Columbia St. Lukes (both of which are second tier) for internal medicine that can really make interpreting a match list quite hard.</p>