<p>My son is making the choice between these two schools. Both are absolutely wonderful schools, and he is having a hard time choosing. It might help to hear why those of you who were faced with this choice, made the decision to attend Princeton. I am posting this on the Harvard forum as well. Thanks in advance for your replies. BTW, he is interested in majoring in Physics/Math.</p>
<p>hhaha is it a bad sign that there are no responses?</p>
<p>Cluelessmom, H and P both have a lot to offer, and the decision between them comes down to personal preference (or prestige if it matters that much to you). Because of that, it would help to have some more specific info about your son. Obviously, the decision needs to be right for him, so we can provide more specific information if we have more details.</p>
<p>I chose Princeton over Harvard for many reasons… I loved both schools, but Princeton was right for me. As a recruited athlete, I felt like I fit in with the Princeton team of which I’ll be a part of a bit better. However, I liked the Princeton campus/feel much more than Harvard. The city and very crowded atmosphere I experienced at Harvard wasn’t right for me. My parents also found the financial aid for Princeton more accommodating than that of Harvard. There are plenty of other reasons, but those are some of the main ones that came into play for me.</p>
<p>Is he attending preview weekends for both/either?</p>
<p>I didn’t in to Harvard, but at Preview a lot of Princeton kids I met chose it over Harvard. They said that they chose Princeton because it was more undergraduate focused and generally prettier too :)</p>
<p>I liked Princeton’s campus more than H and thought that Princeton had a much better UG focus. Also, thought the social life at P (and Y for that matter) were much much much better than that at Harvard (as also evidenced by the horrible turnout for Yardfest this year…)</p>
<p>1) I knew I would learn more at Princeton
2) Princeton’s campus >>>> Harvard’s</p>
<p>Hmmm… more info about my son.</p>
<p>Very interested in physics and math. Probably shooting for a PhD.
I’m not sure how much he will push himself forward to get noticed by profs, which might be an issue when he tries to get research opportunities.
Very passionate about music performance, wants to be in college orchestra as well as take classes in piano performance/music theory/music history.
Socially introverted, but has a small group of close friends and enjoys meeting like-minded/interesting people.
Doesn’t seem like a partier to me, but what do I know?</p>
<p>He attended the Princeton preview and found it pleasant, but was not unequivocally persuaded in its favor. He was a little put off by its location (isolation, similarity to home environment). </p>
<p>Hopefully this is a good outline of his personality. Thanks for your replies, they are always very helpful.</p>
<p>Virtually no students have experienced both of these places as undergraduates and the answer to a question like this is always personal. I have nothing negative to say about Harvard, but I’ll give you my perspective nonetheless. </p>
<p>Harvard is the one school in the country to which Princeton loses more cross-admits than it wins. Against all other schools it either splits evenly or takes more than it loses. It’s also the one school in the country that I considered choosing over Princeton after having been admitted to both along with Yale and Stanford. I didn’t apply to MIT.</p>
<p>One of the things that makes these two schools different is that they are the only two among HYPSM that don’t have early programs. Those programs (whether binding early decision or single-choice early action) generally boost yield rates significantly as the schools get to woo the admitted students for several months longer than schools without early programs. In MIT’s case, the early program is non-restrictive. Stanford and Yale both have restrictive single-choice early programs. The yield boosting effect of the latter is greater than that of MIT’s non-restrictive program. Even without the advantage of an early program, Princeton is holding its own against its peers but Harvard is still taking more from all of them than it loses. </p>
<p>So why was I one of the 23% or so who decided not to attend Harvard for undergraduate work?</p>
<p>I visited both schools (and Yale as well) when I was making my final decision and in my case, it came down to some intangibles and the presence of a particular program at Princeton.</p>
<p>Here are some issues that played no part in my thinking. </p>
<p>I was convinced that the quality of the undergraduate education at Harvard would be every bit as good as the quality at Princeton. I was convinced that I would be happy in the social milieu at either school. I found the students at each to be interesting, down-to-earth, friendly and full of energy. I found them to be equally diverse.</p>
<p>Here are some of the issues that did play a part.</p>
<p>First, the more trivial. I was more enchanted with the physical surroundings and weather in Princeton. I find the collegiate gothic style more appealing than the New England red brick and the weather is more temperate in the mid-Atlantic than in Boston. While Cambridge, Massachusetts is a great city, I prefer to live in more natural surroundings and the beauty of Lake Carnegie and the more park-like setting of Princeton appealed to me. (As I’ve mentioned in other threads, I had spent some time abroad and the Princeton campus had more parallels to Cambridge than the Harvard campus, which reminded me more of Oxford. You can probably tell that I was more fond of the former!) Also, I was interested in politics and the proximity of the Princeton campus to New York, Philadelphia and Washington DC was a draw. The trip from Boston to DC is a long one and as great as are the charms of the former, there is much more to see and do when one has easy access to both New York and Philadelphia.</p>
<p>More important than any of these factors, however, was my interest in the Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs at Princeton. Its undergraduate program had no parallel at Harvard where the Kennedy School is a graduate level institution. I could have majored in politics at either Harvard or Princeton but the public policy focus of the Wilson School tipped me in that direction.</p>
<p>For physics and mathematics, the differences between the two are, if anything, even more slight. Both have some of the best minds in the world in these two fields. Harvard has the advantage of the combined nearby resources of MIT but Princeton draws on a close interaction with the faculty at the Institute For Advanced Study (former home of Einstein). </p>
<p>In your son’s case, his additional interest in music will also be well served at both places.</p>
<p>Tipping the scales a bit in Princeton’s favor might be the fact that your son is somewhat introverted. Harvard is bigger than Princeton and feels that way. Opportunities abound at both places to get to know your professors, but based on my limited interaction with undergraduates at Harvard while I was a law student there, I think taking advantage of them requires more personal forcefulness at Harvard than is true at Princeton.</p>
<p>Tipping the scales a bit in Harvard’s favor is the surroundings. Princeton is very different from Harvard in this way. The combination of Cambridge and Boston just outside your door at Harvard is not something that Princeton can offer. Princeton is certainly not isolated, and access to major cities is simple but it takes about an hour to get into New York whereas from Harvard, one can be in downtown Boston in a matter of minutes. If the urban life at his doorstep is more appealing, Harvard would be a better choice.</p>
<p>I would, however, urge you not to pressure your son one way or the other. He’s the one who will be living with this choice for the next four years and it’s important that he make it himself. He’ll have a great experience at either of these world-class institutions. The vast majority of students end up being happy with their undergraduate alma mater regardless of which one they attend.</p>
<p>One thing that might help is to ask the admission office at each institution to put him in touch with a professor in math or physics. A personal conversation with a faculty member might help provide additional insight. </p>
<p>Harvard is a fine institution and, after turning it down for undergraduate school, I did decide to attend for law school. In the end, I know that I probably would have been happy at either. I’ll bet that’s a common feeling.</p>
<p>PrincetonGrad,</p>
<p>Thank you for your analysis! Your answers are always so thoughtful.
Another factor:
Princeton does happen to be much closer (Under an hour) to home than Harvard ( 5 and a half hours). Is Princeton perhaps too close? Is it an obstacle to personal growth to be too close to home?</p>
<p>^ aww you’re such a sweet mom, caring so much :)</p>
<p>I also live just under an hour away from Princeton and I feel that it is a perfect combination of being far enough to give me a sense of space but close enough to be comforted by the idea that my parents can feasibly drive over for a Saturday dinner. I came to Princeton VERY much attached to my parents (being an only child and all), and at the beginning of the year I thought that I could always fall back on them picking me up and taking me home every weekend. But once I got busy and made friends on campus there was no time or desire to lean so heavily on my parents. I grew up a lot during this first year here and I would definitely say that I am a whole lot more independent nowadays (something that I am very much thankful for).</p>
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<p>I am sure that you and he are both aware that HP offer some of, if not the, best programs in both math and physics in the world. I know that many math and physics majors here go on to earn PhDs. It’s a very intellectual atmosphere.</p>
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<p>This leads me to think he might prefer Princeton, where I get the sense it is easier to develop relationships because of the small size and nature of the undergraduate precedence (I have only my friends at Harvard for reference).</p>
<p>We live in a Rocky Mountain state, so HYPMC, etc. were all alien to us until we started researching schools and then, in my son’s junior year, began our visits. We did the one college per day train tour: Harvard, Brown, Yale, Columbia, Princeton, Penn I think it was. It was all new to both of us, but we approached it as knowledgable consumers, reading 5 or 6 guidebooks about the next day’s school as we travelled between colleges. We listened intently to each info session and each tour guide, eavesdropped on lunch conversations, and asked questions of random strangers. Like your son he is a math/physics kid, but as a recruited athlete he was in the position of feeling he needied to pick a first choice school on the front end so he could commit to a coach, get support, and be in early and done. I didn’t expect him to like Harvard but he did, a lot, until he saw Yale. Once he visited Princeton the game was over. It just clicked for him. He was practically ready to commit on the spot. In the end, his choices came down to PYSH, in that order. I had been wowed by all of them, and felt sure he would be very happy whichever he chose. It worked out as we hoped. He applied in Sept. to Princeton, got a likely letter in Oct., and never looked back. I agree with the posters above that it is a personal, individual decision. Be happy your son has the choice.</p>
<p>My son is nearing the completion of his freshman year and he and I are very pleased he chose Princeton. One of the books or online sites rated Princeton #1 in the “runs like butter” category. I didn’t really know what that meant until he’d been there a while. Now I know. It’s all about the students. Whatever they need, they get. At least it’s been that way for him. When he was injured in an auto accident during spring break, I received a call from a residential college advisor offering to get him any special accomodations he might need, including an electric golf cart to get him around campus.
Case in point. DS is in the Integrated Science Program, which combines Physics, Molecular Biology, Chemistry, and Computer Science. He was considering staying on campus over the summer for a research opportunity, but wanted to come home to see family and GF (not in that order). When he mentioned to a prof that he was torn between research and going home, the prof openned the website of our State flagship, ran through the science profs here, said he new several, made a recommendation, picked up the phone, called a Utah colleague and, poof, just like that, DS has an internship lined up near home. That’s the Princeton experience. In fairness, the Harvard experience may be similar, but I don’t know.</p>
<p>Oh, and regarding math, DS took multivariable calc 1st semester and is currently in linear algebra. Not in with the math majors, but pretty serious math. His comment is that everyone at Princeton is really smart and really good at math. It may just be the crowd he runs with, but it is telling.</p>
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As DS said when debating P vs. S, either way it’s a plane ride, whether it’s 2 hours or 5 doesn’t matter in the big picture. I agree with the concept. Choose whichever school is best for him. Closeness or distance is irrelevant. </p>
<p>He has great options, and I’m sure he’ll be happy either way.</p>
<p>Good luck.</p>
<p>My D didn’t get into Harvard but we did research on the music situation at the schools she was interested in. While both H and P have a lot of musical groups and playing options, the lesson situation seems to be much better at Princeton (and Yale) as there are music professionals that give kids lessons right on campus. If you are in a certain school musical group the lessons will be subsidized 50% and if you do a certificate in Music, the lessons are fully paid by the school (I guess this would only kick in Junior and Senior year?). </p>
<p>[Private</a> Lessons -*The Department of Music at Princeton University - Private Lessons](<a href=“http://www.princeton.edu/music/private-lessons/]Private”>http://www.princeton.edu/music/private-lessons/)</p>
<p>From what I saw at Harvard, you have to find a teacher off-campus. I saw a list of suggested teachers with varying prices, but they didn’t have a lot of options in my D’s very common instrument. It concerned me that it would be a big hassle to travel off-campus (as some are in Boston) for weekly lessons and she’d end up dropping them. I do think people on financial aid can fill out a request for a subsidy for lessons though.</p>
<p>I would definitely contact someone in the music dept. at both schools if this is an important factor for you.</p>
<p>Cluelessmom-</p>
<p>You say your son is a little on the introverted side and tends to cultivate smaller groups of friends. How does he feel about Princeton’s competitive eating club scene (which is unique, to say the least, among HYPSM)? Does he really want to have to deal with the issue of eating clubs at all, having to decide whether to himself up for inspection at one of the prestigious/selective eating clubs, go for a less prestigious “sign-in” club, or banish himself to the solo hinterlands? And remember, this is just to get a meal.</p>
<p>There’s a nice and useful article here from the Daily Princetonian describing the result of this year’s competition; it provides plenty of numbers on applicants, “bickeree” acceptance ratios, “bickerer” yields. etc. It reads like a a “bickeresque” novel:</p>
<p>[Tower</a> has record 219 bickerees - The Daily Princetonian](<a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2010/02/08/25053/]Tower”>http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2010/02/08/25053/)</p>
<p>Yes, Harvard has clubby prestige mongers, too (some join these Final Clubs, but those are after hours recreation societies, not the fundamental organizing principal of undergraduate life, as the Eating Clubs are) but Harvard much more than Princeton is a collection of a very diverse array of societies. The pressure to “fit in” and “be social” in a certain way is much less pronounced here at Harvard ( I am a junior). In fact, Harvard sort of prizes those who do “their own thing” and abounds with people aren’t that big on organized social life and prefer to build their own little niche.</p>
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<p>This is absolutely absurd. The atmosphere you are describing is non-extant. </p>
<p>Cluelessmom, feel free to PM me for an actual viewpoint on the eating clubs, instead of the concoctions of some anonymous non-student.</p>
<p>In some ways the eating clubs are perfect for introverted students. Sign into a non-bicker club and you are guaranteed company for every meal for your junior and senior years. If you don’t want to do that, stay 4 years in your residential college. If you are a committed introvert, go independent. One place where Princeton is better than Harvard, from everything I hear over the years from Harvard students and alumni, Princeton has a generally friendlier atmosphere as you wander about. It’s not about the people, it’s the suburban, green-lawned environment. People are more closed on crowded urban streets than when crossing lawns on paths. I am not making a statement about the friendliness of the people, so please no flames. Data is gathered from sister, brother, and son’s best friend at Harvard, from daughter and son at Princeton, also own eyes.</p>
<p>Great responses as usual. I am afraid that I do not understand the eating clubs too well. Are the majority of seniors and juniors in the eating clubs? What percentage of upperclassmen eat at the colleges? Will a student who opts to eat at the colleges be part of a minority?</p>
<p>The eating clubs simply are not a major issue - want one, then sign in. Don’t want one - no big deal, there are other options that allow for good food and good friends.</p>
<p>[Princeton</a> University - Upperclass Dining Options](<a href=“Housing & Dining”>Housing & Dining)
General outline of the dining options for junior and senior students.</p>
<p>[Straying</a> from the Street - The Daily Princetonian](<a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/12/15/24756/]Straying”>http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2009/12/15/24756/)
“According to data from COMBO II, for upperclassmen’s current dining options as of spring 2009 and sophomore’s intended dining options for the following fall, 53 percent belonged to eating clubs, 16 percent had residential college meal plans, and 9 percent had shared meal plans. Another 19 percent were independent students, and 3 percent were members of co-ops.” [The percent who are member of co-ops is/will be higher with the addition of a new co-op in the 2009-2010 year.] </p>
<p>[Co-ops</a> reach membership caps - The Daily Princetonian](<a href=“http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2010/02/11/25121/]Co-ops”>http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2010/02/11/25121/)
Food co-ops are a nice alternative that prospective students may be unaware of. They are of growing availability in the last year and increasing popularity.</p>