<p>My son was admitted to HYP and is having some difficulty deciding which would be best. We are Americans living overseas, so our son was not able to attend any of the preview programs this month (although we visited these colleges during the summer). He wants to major in pure mathematics, but also loves acting and hopes to find extracurricular theatre opportunities--perhaps improv. He has also been on his high school's speech and debate team and hopes to continue debating in college. He has heard that Princeton's undergraduate caters to the upper echelon of math majors and that it fails to provide a solid grounding in fundamental math. Of course besides his major in math, he would like to have a great overall undergraduate experience. As you know, he has to make a decision soon! I would really appreciate your thoughts regarding this dilemma.</p>
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He has heard that Princeton's undergraduate caters to the upper echelon of math majors and that it fails to provide a solid grounding in fundamental math.
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<p>In fact, the opposite is true. Math majors at Princeton spend the first three semesters developing basic tools in analysis, linear algebra, and multivariable calculus. Harvard spends one year on this material. Yale's math department is vastly inferior to Princeton's and Harvard's, so I don't feel any need to address it specifically. Math students at Princeton probably take longer to begin studying advanced topics, but when they are ready, their grounding in fundamental math is so strong that they are able to assume a faster pace than most students at peer institutions. Princeton certainly has its fair share of upper echelon math students, but it does not favor these students at the expense of others who do not yet have the solid grounding that you speak of.</p>
<p>Thanks, Weasel 8488, for your detailed response. My son is a huge fan of John Conway and of course, Andrew Wiles. Would such professors ever teach undergraduates? Are you a math major? If so, did you also face a similar decision as my son? Do you know any more about Harvard's math program? Thanks for your advice.</p>
<p>Can't really provide much input here, but congrats to your son!</p>
<p>Hi dvk, you may want to refer to this thread about H vs. P math:</p>
<p>It offers only tidbits of information, but may help you anyway...
And I'm sure the theater programs at Harvard and Yale are very strong, but just to vouch for Princeton, all the theater groups I saw during Princeton Preview were hilarious and cool, particularly the ones with original skits (if that's what your son is looking at). They also have an amazingly talented group called Quipfire that does improv comedy and could very easily be a professional group.</p>
<p>P.S. If your son wants to go into academia, Princeton's senior thesis and the close faculty contact it ensures would provide an excellent springboard.</p>
<p>I consider Princeton superior for an undergraduate experience. The professors are focused on the undergrads, and when they conduct research, they have 1/5 the graduate students to choose from: everyone else is an undergrad. I do not know how this applies to the math department, but a nice quote I heard from the department chair in physics is "we have more research opportunities than physics majors." They always have opportunities available to every student that wants them. All 3 related departments--physics, math, and astrophysics (I saw their presentation at Princeton Preview)--seem extremely devoted to undergraduates. They stressed very strongly that though they're rated similarly (one of the best) to other elite universities in terms of research for many departments, their advantage is that they are focused on the undergraduates. When Harvard is rated highly for research, the 10,000 grads vs. 5000 undergrads factor in more strongly than Princeton's 2000 grads vs. 5000 undergrads. I believe Harvard is the best school to go to for graduate school (depending on your field, of course), but Princeton is the best school to go to for undergraduate school. I should add that Princeton historically has had a stronger focus on pure mathematics than applied mathematics, though their applied mathematics is growing. It might be worth considering if Harvard or Yale seem to have a stronger emphasis on applied mathematics than pure--someone else should comment on that.</p>
<p>I don't think you'll have to worry about extracurricular involvement at either of these schools: students can't get into HYP without being amazing at a lot of things, and you can be sure theater is one of those things. I can't comment on the individual strengths, though.</p>
<p>All in all, I feel all three schools can provide an incredible experience, but Princeton would give the friendliest and most individualized attention.</p>
<p>As others have told you, the math decision is really between Harvard and Princeton. It's not my area of expertise but I believe what has been said here so far is correct.</p>
<p>As far as theater, I am pretty familiar with that area. As far as student groups, there is Theater Intime, a standalone theater in the middle of campus that is complete student run and puts on performances regularly. Mark Nelson - originally cast in Picasso at the Lapin Agile got his start there. There was another director, now working on Broadway, who got Santo Loquasto to come and light his production of The Tempest. Other from Intime have gone on to write for TV, including Winnie Holzman. And these are all from the short 4-year period of 74-78. </p>
<p>There is also Triangle Club. This is the student written musical group that performs at McCarter, the professional theater at the base of campus. Jimmy Stewart got his start here. Stephen Bogardus was an alum, another working Broadway actor. The Triangle club performs during freshman orientation, a "best of" kind of show, and then the full show I believe is in the spring.</p>
<p>The Princeton University Players do non-student written musicals. Quipfire is the improvisational theater group. And the student dance groups are a huge force on campus, kind of like the a capella groups.</p>
<p>Then, of course, there is the Program in Theater. You should have your son look at it carefully on the Princeton website. Also read the information about the strategic plan for Princeton. Peter Lewis made a recent very large donation targeted specifically at the arts, and Princeton is expanding the area around McCarter theater to grow performance spaces. They bring in people now for film and digital media.</p>
<p>Theater, performance, the arts, these are one of the major focuses for the development of Princeton at this point. Along with neuroscience. And the Princeton culture is very cooperative, very collaborative. </p>
<p>Finally, the one hour trip you can make via a train leaving from right outside of McCarter theater means kids can go to NYC easily to see what is arguably the best or second best theater in the world, and, the people who work in New York can come down to Princeton for a nice break and teach brilliant kids:).</p>
<p>Princeton vs Harvard - Usually I would say either one would be great choice. But from the limited information you offered about your son, I would say he would be better at Princeton. Many went to Harvard just for the name, it is nothing wrong with that but your son may not fit in among that type.</p>
<p>And he may enjoy these if he hasn't seen them [url=<a href="http://www.math.princeton.edu/facultypapers/Conway/%5DLectures%5B/url">http://www.math.princeton.edu/facultypapers/Conway/]Lectures[/url</a>]</p>
<p>DVK - just to chime in with a couple of other points (I have a daughter who will attend Princeton)</p>
<p>When we attended the Preview days, the president emphasized that Princeton has 2 roles: a small liberal arts college (with incredible funds) and research.</p>
<p>She stressed that the focus is on the students; graduate students are a neglible part of the operation. </p>
<p>During my visit I was struck by how... nurturing the adults presented themselves. I wasn't looking for that - or expecting it. But I can understand that it might interest you since you will be far from your son.</p>
<p>What I'm saying is: go to Harvard for name recognition. For any other reason, choose Princeton.</p>
<p>I can't comment on the theater aspect but I majored in a related field at Princeton, got a PhD at Harvard and taught at Harvard. The faculties are superb at both places; both are higher ranked than Yale, I think, but I've never been entirely sure what that means. So, I'll just address the relevant differences between Princeton and Harvard.</p>
<p>Students can get a superb education at either, but at Harvard, it is much easier to get lost. At Princeton, you are much more naturally going to be able to work closely with well-known professors -- for example, my undergraduate thesis adviser was one of the great men of American academia. At Harvard, the comparable person would have been much less likely to take an interest in undergraduates. It can happen, but the student will need to be much more self-directed and proactive. The high-end schools have an unpublished survey of student satisfaction and Harvard is, according to a Boston Globe article that didn't publish the results, surprisingly low. By contrast, Princeton has the highest percentage of alumni who make donations each year of any institution in the world. [When we go back for reunions, which we do every 5 years, my wife thinks it is a cult. So many people who really loved the place]. The odds of it providing a better undergraduate experience are higher.</p>
<p>However, I love Harvard too. It is a phenomenal place -- it really is one of the nodes in the world's networks of power. The people who come through Harvard are just phenomenal -- leaders of governments, CEOs, etc. In that regard, there is no other place like it. An undergraduate who has interests outside of straight academia may find him/herself better served by Harvard (especially if the interests involve politics). As you branch out of math and into other math-related areas such as genomics or computational biology, Harvard's larger faculty may provide an advantage. But, then again, you'd have to get the professors to pay attention to undergraduates. They typically will, if you seem strong and pursue them, whereas at Princeton, the professors generally expect to work with undergraduates. A friend who is a Harvard professor now (not in math) attended Harvard College and mentioned to me that his roommate placed very highly on the Putnam exam (I think) but that the professors really never paid much attention to him and he never pursued academia and works on Wall Street. My friend's sense was that had the faculty expressed interest in his roommate, he might have pursued an academic career. </p>
<p>I have dual loyalties and still have a modest affiliation with Harvard -- just taught a class there last week -- and could go either way but would recommend Princeton for undergraduates.</p>
<p>shawbridge's post about Princeton and Harvard is the best I saw so far. I will recommend it to the cross admitted kits and parents I know.</p>
<p>Thanks, cc2. Just to make sure I was clear, my major was in a field related to math (not theater).</p>
<p>Having thought about this case, I believe that unless your son really wants to be in a city he ought to come to Princeton. I do not think there is a school in the country that has the amazing nexus of math and theater the way that Princeton does at this moment.</p>
<p>Agree with shawbridge's post.
Conway teaches advanced undergrad courses; Wiles is currently chair which probably reduces his courseload. However, Princeton profs are devoted to undergrad teaching and it is far more likely you will end up working with a 'star' in courses and independent work than you might at Harvard--I agree with alumother: Princeton for undergrad.</p>
<p>And BTW I do not recommend Princeton blindly to everyone who comes to this board.</p>
<p>As momnprof just said, Wiles is currently the chair, so he doesn't teach quite as much as the other faculty. Conway, however, is very accessible...last year, actually, he taught a course (MAT 217--Honors Linear Algebra, I think? Maybe 215--Analysis in a Single Variable...) that many freshmen (usually IMO medalists) and sophomore math majors take. Pretty much every professor teaches, in fact. Professor Jeff Nunokawa, master of Rocky and English professor, told the students in my freshman seminar last year that every single professor had to teach, unless, he said, "you've won four Nobel Prizes or something like that." (not a direct quote, fine, but you get the point)
What I'm trying to say, in any case, is that faculty are incredibly accessible at Princeton. You see them not only in class, but at office hours, at lectures, at afternoon teas...</p>
<p>I have pretty much the same interests, a math major with lots of theater, and after a lot of thought chose Harvard (I'm 2012, so I can't offer first-hand experience at either). I do think I'd get a slightly better academic experience at Princeton vis a vis professor interaction/undergrad focus, especially in math, but in the final analysis I decided I couldn't deal with the social scene at Princeton and like Harvard's location. From the math kids I talked to at Harvard, I think the greater undergrad focus at Princeton is probably true, but there's a larger undergrad math community at Harvard (which can be a bigger deal than you'd think) and there are ways to interact more with faculty, such as being involved in the newly-formed Mathematics Review, an expository math journal. I suppose I'll sometimes have regrets about the road not taken, but I figure now that I've made my choice I'll allow myself to get psyched for Harvard math and consider what will be over what could have been =)</p>
<p>As for theater, I have a friend who's a junior at Princeton in theater and loves the program, and the amount of funding and resources that are available for undegrads there is a big plus. But again, there seem to be lots of theater options at Harvard, though they're more slanted towards extracurricular groups than formal academic programs or departments.</p>
<p>It's a personal choice--you can't really go wrong either way. Do try to make sure you don't choose Harvard "because it's Harvard"--at least, I waited as long as I did to make a final decision mostly to make sure I wasn't doing that. (If you want to go into politics or finance or something along "running the world" lines, that may be less sound advice.) In the same vein, make sure you think you'll be fine with Princeton's social and other non-academic aspects--if you're miserable it doesn't matter how much undergrad academic focus there is.</p>
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My son is a huge fan of John Conway and of course, Andrew Wiles. Would such professors ever teach undergraduates?
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<p>My S is a junior math major at Princeton. His freshman year he had a Field's medalist for a class of less than 20. This year he had a research seminar with John Conway that had 5 students in it. He reviewed his latest research with them then asked for volunteers to write a text book with him. S was first to volunteer. He said one day John Conway was sitting in the hall of the math building working on something. He called S over and discussed what he was doing for 45 minutes with him. They have daily math teas where professors, grad students and undergrads get together and drink tea, eat cookies, and talk excitedly about math. He's in math heaven.</p>