<p>Help! I am completely torn between the two. I have been admitted to both, and will be visiting both of the campuses next week. I have always dreamed about going to Harvard, but as of lately I have been doing my research and have heard that Yale focuses more on their undergraduate students. Also, I have heard that Yale has a more lax and social environment.
Can someone please give me some feedback?</p>
<p>Do you have a major/concentration in mind? Or even a general area of interest? With all their similarities, they also have some not-insignificant differences including strengths of departments etc.</p>
<p>Well I am extremely interested with Neurology. Harvard has a Neurobiology undergraduate degree program, but I have also heard that Yale’s Neurology program is excellent.
I would also like to take Social Science classes because I love anything and everything to do with that field.</p>
<p>Hi!</p>
<pre><code> A quick search of this board will yield a ton of information on this, but as a current Harvard freshman who made the same choice last year (including hearing the same things you did about the differences) I think I can help. First of all, while obviously I can’t directly compare the two, I don’t think attention to undergraduates is a very important difference between the two colleges. Now, I’m not saying that there isn’t a difference because I have no knowledge with which to make that claim, but in my experience most undergraduates at Harvard receive more attention than they can handle/take advantage of. There are so many resources, from a ridiculous library system to abundant office hours and advising that once they’re immersed in one or more of Harvard’s amazingly intense extracurricular activities (check out the extracurricular activities fair during Visitas for a small taste, that’s the reason I’m here) they simply don’t have enough time to do everything they would like! Personally, I don’t see how Harvard could focus on my education much more than they already are, and I highly doubt that Yale has a larger focus on undergraduates in a way that is tangible to the average student.
Regarding the more lax and social environment, there might be a little more truth to this, on average. Harvard is quite intense, and most (though not all) students here seem to absolutely love it, not in a “OMG I love this place” way but in the sort of quiet, satisfied way a cross country runner feels after a major race. Yale seems to be a little different in this regard, more relaxed perhaps, but personally I really enjoy the intensity of Harvard. Socially, Harvard’s fabulous location and intensity to make things a little more fragmented here… as I said before, there is maybe a little less of a Harvard bond and more bonds created in groups, whether in houses or extracurriculars or someplace else. There is of course plenty of general school spirit, but again it is maybe more subdued that you might find at Yale. Again, remember that these differences are ON AVERAGE… individual student experiences vary so wildly that one has to really take care about making generalizations like this.
Overall, though I’m sure this is no surprise given my bias, I think that it most situations you will be better off coming to Harvard, though the differences are quite minor. The main kicker is location… as similar as Yale and Harvard are in most respects (really quite similar) Cambridge and Boston are so much better than New Haven that it isn’t even a point of contention. We have world class museums and restaurants, other top notch universities, excellent public transportation, a dynamic college neighborhood (Harvard square is pretty amazing) and a very safe, clean and modern city all within fifteen minutes… and as someone who goes into Boston quite often, I can honestly say that my time at Harvard has been materially better than my time at Yale would have been for that very reason… even though at Visitas you will largely be confined to Harvard, keep in mind what is outside the gates…
If you have any other questions, feel free to ask here or PM me… I’m more than happy to help!
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<p>When my Ds considered Harvard, I had some trepidation because I thought it could be intimidating. I’d heard about the supposed lack of “undergrad focus” and envisioned a place with a stifling sense of elitism. Nothing could have been farther from the truth. The campus, faculty, and staff have been exceptionally welcoming and accommodating. Our whole family has found the culture of the College to be very undergrad-focused, diverse in every imaginable way, and whatever the adjectives are that would be the opposite of haughty and stuffy. The girls have had many one-on-one sessions with profs - even some of the stars - including home cookouts. Their residential college experiences have been outstanding. D1’s live-in Faculty House Master in her residential college made the Time 100 list last year as one of the world’s 100 most influential people. D1 adored him and used to house-sit his dog. She graduated last spring, but she and he are still active Facebook friends. </p>
<p>The fact that all the students are amazing at something tends to inject a certain dose of humility into nearly everyone. Our Ds have friends from very humble as well as wealthy backgrounds, from just about every region of the nation and the world. We go up to the campus and take them and their friends out to dinner; I feel really fortunate to have the experience of being in a setting like that surrounded by such interesting, funny, witty, charming, dazzling young people. Growing up in a small town, our Ds yearned to meet friends like the ones they now have, and didn’t know if they’d ever have this kind of opportunity. It’s exceeded their wildest dreams. </p>
<p>The three campus life distinctives at Harvard, IMO, are the diversity, the level and intensity of extracurricular involvement, and the almost unbelievable degree to which the College will facilitate student-initiated projects. You’ll find that half the gospel choir is not African-American - there are white students, Hispanic students, students in turbans, yarmulkes, etc. They all clap and sway while they sing spirituals, the Jewish kids and the Asian kids and the Arab kids all embracing the gospel choir culture as their own. As a Southerner from a culture in which black and white Georgians tend to live parallel but non-intersecting lives, it made me cry the first time I saw it. The Harvard break-dance troupe is majority Asian. The South Asian student annual production includes students from all races and nationalities. Everyone is involved on campus and all seem to support one another’s activities and performances. Music and theatre are not only well-attended, but often reach a professional touring-production quality. And there is no limit in proposing a program of audacious reach. Our older D went to China a few years ago to teach in a program for outstanding Chinese HS students. Students from all across the country applied and those selected came to Shanghai for a two-week, live-in symposium, all taught by Harvard undergrads. When I asked D1 which department sponsored the program, she looked at me with disdain and said no department was in charge of it - the students were. The College had only evaluated the students’ proposal and provided the funding for everything but instructor airfare!</p>
<p>My wife and I graduated from Wake Forest - a good school that I love, which had only 2,900 undergrads when we attended in the '70s. The undergraduate focus at Harvard is way, way beyond anything that was available to us at Wake.</p>
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<p>I agree. And I CAN make a direct comparison, not between Harvard and Yale but between Harvard and Dartmouth. I have a daughter at each. USNews ranks Dartmouth #1 for undergrad teaching and focus, ahead of Yale even. Yet based on my daughters’ experiences over the years I can see no significant differences in the amount and quality of attention and “focus” (whatever that is) from their respective professors.</p>
<p>Funny how bad reputations or things “everybody knows” can hang around for years, contrary to the reality on the ground. I was fully expecting the gap between H and D to be huge based on what gets endlessly repeated on CC. I’m still waiting to see the difference.</p>
<p>Do Harvard Medical School or Harvard Law School professors focus on the undergrads? Of course not. They have their own students to worry about. But the professors of Harvard COLLEGE are charged with teaching the undergrads. And so far as I can see, most of them do a pretty good job.</p>
<p>I have spent my whole career in secondary education, and over the last 20 or so years I have been involved in college guidance at well-regarded suburban high schools and private day and boarding schools in the Boston area. For the past 6 years, I have served as Direct of College Placement at a very well-known private day school located close to Boston that funnels a couple of dozen kids a year into the Ivies or similar schools. The short of it is, I have probably helped usher over 3,000 kids through the odyssey of college admissions and have seen them placed in institutions of all sizes and reputations throughout the US and abroad. I have worked with probably close to a hundred kids who matriculated at Harvard, and probably 70 or so who matriculated at Yale. I have ongoing friendships with many of them that have lasted long beyond their graduation from college.</p>
<p>I have a couple of kids facing the Harvard/Yale decision this year, as I do almost every year. (I myself am a graduate of a small liberal arts school in the Midwest, so I have no personal motivation for promoting either one.) Truth is, virtually anyone getting into either of the schools would flourish at either one - at this point I generally remain mum and encourage kids to go on a gut decision based on their visits before May 1st. </p>
<p>I have seen many students gush enthusiastically about their experiences at Harvard and Yale from the moment they arrive on Campus through their Commencement after-parties; but I have seen more than a few miserable from beginning to end at each institution, and have even seen some kids drop out from each (though admittedly, those are very few indeed).</p>
<p>In general, though, I would have to admit that even though a slight majority of my cross-admits ultimately select Harvard, the kids who end up at Yale seem palpably more smitten with their institution and more enthusiastic about their academic and social lives overall. I think Harvard is more intimidating for all sorts of reasons, the atmosphere is a little colder, and the culture is one that rewards individual initiative to a more pronounced degree. I think Yale’s college system, which offers students a rooted home and community from their very first traumatic days on campus, helps to diffuse the freshman year anxiety and trepidation better than Harvard’s House system. There seems to be a little less outward competition at Yale and a greater sense of general community and camaraderie. </p>
<p>I probably visit Harvard at least once a month for one reason or another, and i get down to Yale once or twice a year as well. When I spend time at Yale I always ask myself the question: just what is it that they put in the water down here? People are extremely friendly, courteous and helpful everywhere you go, both staff and students. Students bubble over in enthusiasm for their experience when you talk to them in the dining halls. The place feels less stressed than Harvard - more relaxed, balmy, artsy, intellectual.</p>
<p>Anyhow, these are just one counselor’s feelings after a couple of decades of watching a generation or so of kids struggle to scale the walls of these very deservedly elite institutions.</p>
<p>borodino, </p>
<p>Your sentiments align with mine! I’ve visited both schools extensively and have reached the same conclusions.</p>
<p>borodino, I didn’t apply to Harvard so was never the position of the OP but I did compare Yale to other Ivies and I witnessed the same thing. As a matter of fact, the phrase “what did they put in the water” is one I often use when I described my first interactions with Yale and its people.</p>
<p>Whatever it was,it won me over and they started having me drink it too. Now many years later, my enthusiasm hasn’t dimmed and I’m a booster, recruiter and interviewer for Yale. What is the reason? Ultimately perhaps it has to do with some picture that admissions has in their head and they somehow pick the right students. But I also profoundly feel that as Yalies, we were extremely conscious of the blessings we were enjoying and aware of what a gift it was to be taken care of by that institution. I think this sense of gratitude drives me and many of my fellow alums to do what we do and to feel what we feel. </p>
<p>Hope this helps. GO to Yale! But if not, our loss and Harvard’s gain, I’m sure! Good luck to you all.</p>
<p>Borodino, you may have something here about Yale and the water. Our family got a similar vibe doing the tour. The tour guides at Harvard seem very quiet and a bit preoccupied -It is a great school, so what else do you need to know, just show up here if we think you are good enough to be admitted. You go to Yale, the tour guides are all peppy, declaring themselves to be superior to the other guides talk about how great their residential college is, you walk through a chemistry building and some people walk out of labs and are telling us - she is your tour guide? Please make sure to give her a hard time, she deserves it (she was leaving school in a couple of weeks).</p>
<p>^Yes, I had the same experience when visiting the two schools in high school! The Harvard tour guide we had was arguably the most lame and unenthusiatic tour guide out of all the schools, giving out exactly the “what else do you need to know, just show up here if you’re good enough” kind of vibe you described, whereas the Yale one was the best—talked lovingly of her residential college and the wonderful experiences she had at a student. I don’t hear Harvard students praising their own House very much except on Housing Day, or the school itself very much except when it’s the Yale-Harvard Game. I think this is a difference between how Yalies and Harvard kids present themselves to the world.</p>
<p>Not sure if any of you have seen this, but just to dispel the notion that Harvard is lacking school spirit a bit, do a quick youtube search of “harvard fancam” and watch the first result…</p>
<p>10jarsle - school spirit is not in videos. You are doing a good job of recommending Harvard but if you were truly passionate - we need to see some trashtalking from you about Yale!</p>
<p>^ no that’s the point. No trash talking, because, well, no need to do so. as a Yalie (who turned down Harvard in the '70s) but has a graduate degree from Harvard and has taught there and been a College advisor for 20 years, I can tell you that there is a palable difference between the two.</p>
<p>When I was growing up there werre two major car rental companies-- Hertz and Avis. Avis’ which was smaller had as its slogan–“We’re number Two–We try harder”. I loved loved my time at yale and cried as i saw them buikding the stage for graduation, but there was always, especially if you got someone drunk, a small part of almost Yalies (again YMMV) who would confess a a sense that Yle was Avis–</p>
<p>Now does that acoount for everything that is diferent?–Nope, but it does count for a lot. The arrogance that has been noted above is also a sense of security–we don’t have to sell you, if you want to come, come, if not, so what? No selling.no need. </p>
<p>My S who did go to Eton and will go to H noted the same feeling between British Public Schools-- harrow, Westminister were positive gushing about their schools but Etonians would just be more laid back about the “my school–rah, rah, rah…” MyD who is an Upper at Exeter noticed in the admitted student days between Phillips Academy and Phillip Exeter that Andover tried so hard-- an ice cream truck parked that day, Bill Beleck (sp?) giving a talk, signs and balloons, she got four post cards from other swimmers on the Andover team, whereas Exeter’s Principal said to us–kids and parents on their admit day–we know that almost all of you have choices–go where you want, we would love to have you here but if this isn’t the place for you, then go where it is. No special anything except, as my D has pointed out since, the food was better that day. She chose Exeter-- for anumber of reasons–Harkness system, etc. But also bc she felt that Exonians felt secure and didn’t feel that they were better…I can tell you that she has friends at PA who always gush about Phillips when they are together–I have seen her react with “That’s great, I’m glad you are happy there. Exeter is just Exeter’”</p>
<p>Another point-- yale is more academically rigorous in terms of requirments–36 classes not 32–and harvard has a stronger EC life. How that balance shifts what you want should be important to you. </p>
<p>That said-- you can’t go wrong. Your gut will tell you very quickly where you belong–the places are that different. Trust your gut – as we analysts point point, people use “reason” to crreate excuses to do what their gut says they should. You cant reason your choice of mate, and you can’t reason your choice of college–Enjoy Bulldog Days and Visitas.</p>
<p>I graduated from Harvard last year and my sister finished Yale about 5 years ago – so I have a lot of exposure to each place.</p>
<p>I would admit that most Yalies seem to enjoy their time at Yale more than most Harvardians enjoy their spell in Cambridge. There is a much warmer, kinder atmosphere in general at Yale. I also believe that, particularly in the larger majors, professors at Yale make more of an attempt to get to know their undergraduates. It’s just in the culture of the place.</p>
<p>Still, after you graduate from Harvard, you get to “drop the H-bomb” for the rest of your life, while Yalies can only “lob the Yale grenade”. I’m just kidding … right?</p>
<p>stephanie, congratulations on your acceptances. i’m not going to argue in favor of one school or another with my post. i’m just going to make an observation about the benefits and perils of gathering info on CC.</p>
<p>college confidential is both a wonderfully helpful source to ferret out information on this sort of thing, and also a really misleading one. i’m sure you’re smart enough to know this, but it’s worth mentioning again: posters can be very biased. in some cases, their comments indicate why – for instance, they might work for a given institution – while others don’t admit that they themselves or their children were rejected from one school or another (hence their devotion on CC to boosting one school or criticizing another). </p>
<p>the best sources are current students who faced the same decision, recent grads who faced that decision or had sibs at the other school, and people like borodino (the high school college counselor who has sent many students to both schools). </p>
<p>talk to as many people like that as you can. they don’t have an ax to grind (or have less of an ax to grind). their insights are fresh and you can learn a lot from them about the schools and about what matters to different people and how those priorities lead them to certain schools. there is no perfect fit for everyone who’s admitted to both harvard and yale.</p>
<p>As many have said, H and Y are both great universities, and most people fortunate enough to be admitted to both would be happy with whichever they choose. </p>
<p>Like some others on this thread, Ive spent multiple years on both campuses, and I think the general trend in this discussion captures some of the differences between the two places. Harvard is particularly a place for intellectual self-starters people who are happy taking initiative to find what they want. One reason for the tighter sense of community at Yale is what Etondad describes Yale has been in the were number 2 and we try harder mode for a long time. The Latinate Visitas, for example, conveys a sense of restrained, intellectual superiority. The plain English Bulldog Days says Rah! Rah! Boosterism and school spirit are more highly valued at Yale. At Harvard, school spirit is vaguely suspect, something you might feel but youre not quite sure you want to admit. </p>
<p>Another key difference is often seen as a Harvard advantage/Yale liability: Harvard has the square, the Red Line, and Boston at its doorstep. Yale has, well, New Haven. A consequence is that Harvard is more centrifugal, Yale more centripetal. With so much to do off campus, theres less need for community and bonding on campus at Harvard. Yale, meanwhile, has made a virtue of necessity with so little to do off campus, energy and resources are poured into making on-campus life as exciting as it can be.</p>
<p>As someone who has been at both schools, I always say, “if prestige is your main value, go to Harvard”. Harvard is world recognized as number one. Try asking about the two places in Guatemala or Indonesia; many people will know little or nothing about Yale but will know all about Harvard.</p>
<p>However, if you are someone who recognizes prestige differences are way oversold, not only between H and Y, but between either of those and many other schools, I say “there’s a huge number of factors to consider. Not the least is the city, residential college system differences, the atmosphere of the school, relative size of the college in relation to professional schools, interest in taking courses in specific professional schools, availability of MIT courses to Harvard, closeness of NYC to Yale, and the quality of specific majors and programs.”</p>
<p>Please try to check out the school and look into what each has to offer to YOU, not to some random person.</p>
<p>P.S. For Yale grads there is no “H bomb” as far as I’ve ever seen.</p>
<p>You should go to Yale and Harvard med.</p>
<p>Be warned that when you drop the H-bomb (and not the Yale grenade) you’re going to be instantly judged on a whole different level. Whatever value structure or social criteria possessed by the person being bombed will be applied to you. The expectation is that a Harvard grad is smarter, stronger, faster, etc. So you’re either going to be perceived as, “yeah, I can see why that guy went to Harvard” or “how could an idiot like that make it through Harvard?” Amazing how many students and adults end up, fairly or unfairly, making the second judgement, and that’s probably because it’s hard to live up to such a high expectation.</p>