Harvard/Yale Law GPA/LSATs

<p>Let's say I go to University of Illinois (my state school) for undergrad, and I want to get into Harvard or Yale Law. Can anyone tell me roughly what GPA and LSAT scores I would need to have a shot at admission?</p>

<p>A GPA > 3.75 & an LSAT > 172 would give you a good shot, but by no means a guarantee.</p>

<p>The middle 50% ranges for these schools are:
Yale 3.80 to 3.97, 169 to 175
Harvard 3.76 to 3.94, 169 to 174</p>

<p>So the minimum stats you would need are roughly 3.8 GPA and LSAT in the 170s. Yale considers the extras (extracurriculars, work experience, etc) a lot more than Harvard does.</p>

<p>When you look at those GPAs, realize that there is a huge variation by school and majour. The 3.5 MIT electrical engineer will probably get a seat over the 3.9 Podnuck poli sci major. If you go to a decent (but not excellent) school, my guess is that you'll really need to have better LSATs to show that you are capable. </p>

<p>Also - I'll say it a million times - as a high school student, forget HLS and Yale. Seriously. The chances of getting in are absolutely miniscule. I know someone who chose between Columbia, NYU, Penn, Chicago, etc - and flat-out rejected at HLS, and didn't even bother applying to Yale. Think multiple majors, excellent schools, great grades, and Fulbright or Rhodes scholarship for your typical HLS/Yale L.S. admit. It's a different league from undergrad - very hard to get that perspective as a high school student, but, about four or five years from now, you'll understand and think "Wow, that Aries person knew what she was talking about when she told me not to get too wrapped up in HLS or Yale."</p>

<p>Wise beyond your years ariesathena!</p>

<p>CD</p>

<p>(Laughing). Thanks! (Though, given that I was up late finishing an open research memo, I'm feeling those years now. Not like the good old days of being 17 and bouncing back after a long night.)</p>

<p>Oh, don't make me laugh ariesathena. I long for the good ole days in my 30's when I could stay up all night to get a brief done. Now they just drape a blanket over my old bones and wheel me off to bed!</p>

<p>It's not the years; it's the mileage. :)</p>

<p>"The 3.5 MIT electrical engineer will probably get a seat over the 3.9 Podnuck poli sci major. If you go to a decent (but not excellent) school, my guess is that you'll really need to have better LSATs to show that you are capable".</p>

<p>That would be nice if that was true, but I'm afraid that I doubt it. There seems to be little hard evidence that MIT graduates are compensated to that extent by law school adcoms, and in fact the hard evidence that does exist points against it. The evidence points to the conclusion that law school adcoms care about grades first, and where you got those grades a very distant second. </p>

<p>Nevertheless, I do agree with the basic point that HLS and YLS (and I would also add Stanford Law) are quite difficult to get into. I don't have information about Illinois undergrads specifically, but I do have information about Berkeley undergrads. In 2004, Berkeley undergrads who successfully got into YLS had an average LSAT of 173 and an average GPA of 4.03 (if you are wondering how you get a GPA >4, for LSDAS purposes, an A+ is worth 4.33 points). Those who got into Stanford Law had an LSAT of 171 and a GPA of 4.12. Those who got into HLS had an LST of 171 and a GPA of 3.98. </p>

<p><a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/Law/lawStats.stm#school%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/Law/lawStats.stm#school&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Thanks for the replies everyone. I don't even know if I really want to go to HLS or YLS, but I was just curious about what kinds of grades/scores in general I'd need. I'll have to look into it more. Anyways, I still have four years to think about it. Thanks again!</p>

<p>After a long search (because I forgot where I first saw it), I finally found this so it better be helpful and informative: <a href="http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/preprof.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/preprof.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>2003 Prelaw Data
Number of MIT Applicants 110
MIT Students Registered
at a Law School 66 out of 110, 60%
Number Accepted to 1 or more schools 90 out of 110, 81.81%
Total MIT Applications Submitted 717
MIT Acceptances 243
Average number of applications
per applicant 6.52
Average number of admissions 2.21
Senior applicants 20 out of 110, 18.18%
Non-senior applicants
(grad students & alums) 92 out of 110, 81.81%
Average LSAT 163.5
Average GPA 3.31/4.0*</p>

<p>*GPA Conversion Instructions for calculating the GPA and converting it to a 4.0 scale can be found at <a href="http://registrar.mit.edu/gpacalc.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://registrar.mit.edu/gpacalc.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Nationwide: about 62% accepted into one or more schools. Average LSAT: 151. </p>

<p>Just a comparison: Tufts, with about 200-250 applying, most all from liberal arts:
average GPA ~3.2 or 3.3
average LSAT 158 or so
number accepted into at least one school: somewhere in the low 80s </p>

<p>Obviously, MIT has a MUCH higher average LSAT score and a comparable GPA to Tufts - yet they have the same acceptance rates overall. Now, this could be because the MIT kids shoot higher. There may be a lot of liberal-arts type MIT kids (the music majors) who are applying and doing well. It's tough to say, looking just at the numbers - but they could be former engineers who meandered over to Sloan or history who apply to law school. There may be a bias against engineers and scientists - which is what I suspect is going on. If you are an engineer and head to law school, it's because you really want to be a lawyer or want legal training. If you're a poli sci major and head to law school, it's because you realized that your degree is pretty useless. Now, people tend to think the opposite: the poli sci kid is obviously interested in things legal, whereas the engineer looks flaky, making a career change. I interviewed at a school where the guy treated me like a moron for actually having a career (no exaggeration - he didn't get why I would switch from engin. to law. Thought that engineers should stay engineers. Def. gave the impression that he thought I was flaky for getting out of the sciences). Just my take. </p>

<p>On one hand, MIT students are doing pretty well - above national average - but those GPAs are pretty high, and the LSATs are amazing. Compare with other institutions, and they are underachieving by the numbers (but the kids who don't get in anywhere could be applying to Harvard, Yale, and Stanford only).</p>

<p>One of my friends who went to college with me at UC Irvine is a second year student at Yale Law right now. She had a 3.99 with a 173 LSAT, and she was also a Truman Scholar (only given to 70 juniors in the country every year) and had tons of other leadership and great credentials.</p>

<p>To get into Yale/Harvard/Stanford Law, you need to not only get good grades and LSAT, but establish yourself on a national level as something special.</p>

<p>Exactly - which again means that you shouldn't choose to do something difficult. It's sad to say, but choosing a difficult major like engineering doesn't really help you, but probably actually hurts you. Not only will you probably get lower grades, but you will probably have to spend an inordinate amount of time just studying, which takes away from time for you to develop a 'hook'.</p>

<p>The fact is, while law schools say that they want somebody who has challenged themselves academically and worked hard, the reality is that they don't really want that at all. Actions speak louder than words, and law schools have indicated that they want somebody who has high grades and a 'hook' rather than somebody who has taken challenging coursework.</p>

<p>What are some examples of a 'hook'?</p>

<p>Actually, you can get into Harvard Law with pretty much nothing but (very) high numbers. </p>

<p>Yale and Stanford are another matter, because their classes are so small. They can afford to be very picky, and they look at everything.</p>

<p>Well, I don't think that's completely true. It is true that Yale and Stanford have smaller classes. On the other hand, there also tend to be far fewer applicants, and hence it is unclear that the net selectivity is all that different from HLS and the other two. This may not hold for Yale Law which truly is a ridiculously selective place, but is particularly true of Harvard vs. Stanford - Harvard does have a lot bigger class size, but also tends to draw far far more applicants, and hence from an overall standpoint, the selectivity is probably equivalent.</p>

<p>Hey, Sakky. </p>

<p>You may be right about Harvard v. Stanford. I've certainly heard people say that these schools simply have difference foci. </p>

<p>(I think most would agree that Yale is clearly the most difficult to get into, and, therefore, the most selective. I believe it has the highest LSAT range, and also looks beyond the numbers to a large extent. No matter what your numers, you're never guaranteed admission to Yale.) </p>

<p>However, I would say that, if you have a 180 and a 4.0, you're probably pretty much guaranteed admission at HLS, regardless of your background (as long as you're not a criminal). The school is large enough that they'll probably take a number of students based on pretty much nothing but numbers. </p>

<p>The same probably cannot be said for Stanford, however. Their LSAT range is relatively low (lower than NYU), largely because they focus more on other factors, like work experience. </p>

<p>I would also argue that actual admissions to Stanford is probably still more difficult, given that it has a smaller class, better environment, better weather, etc. However, I honestly don't have any hard facts on this. Could be wrong. </p>

<p>One thing I will agree with is that some students accepted to Stanford will not get into HLS, and vice-versa. I do think the schools have different priorities. </p>

<p>Getting into any of these schools is close to impossible, of course.</p>

<p>Hi there,</p>

<p>It might sound a bit crazy, but I'm trying to decide whether I should go to Northwestern U or U of CHicago for undergrad for the best chances to get into Harvard/Yale Law school.</p>

<p>ANy advice please?? THX!</p>

<p>You should go to the school that you can get a higher GPA at, while not giving up any reputation. That would appear to be Northwestern in this case.</p>