<p>I plan to major in Chemistry or Chemical Engineering. My major might change, but I definitely want to stay in STEM. Financial aid at three schools are equal.</p>
<p>I visited Harvey Mudd during admitted students weekend and absolutely loved the school! The professors and the students are incredibly amazing, and I know that I will get the best STEM education there. I have no issue with the size, in fact I love it! I feel that I really fit in with the school.</p>
<p>I visited Princeton and Williams in the fall, and I liked the schools enough. Maybe I didn't love the schools as much as Harvey Mudd because I didn't visit them during admitted students program. </p>
<p>If I choose Princeton, I will have the Wall Street connections that might be useful in the future and be taught the social etiquette that I couldn't have because of my background. Obviously the prestige of Princeton might also help my career. One thing I am worried about Princeton is that I feel uncomfortable by the social atmosphere there and the fact that I have heard professors do not give much attention to freshmen and sophomores. I am also worried about the exclusiveness of Princeton's community as everything has applications. Williams is the same as Princeton, except I know for sure the professors actually care about students.</p>
<p>So my brain says Princeton or Williams but my heart says Harvey Mudd. What should I choose?</p>
<p>I am the mom of a Mudd freshman, and here is the one thing I can say about Mudd that I noticed when I first visited. The kids are happy to be there – they are engaged, excited about their work, and really don’t want to be anyplace else. And I see that now when I visit my kid on campus, too. They work very hard, but they achieve a lot as well. If your heart says Mudd, then I really think there is no question. My kid turned down U of Chicago and Swarthmore for Mudd last year, and is absolutely certain she made the right decision. And it isn’t like you won’t have good career prospects coming out of Mudd as well. Mudd is a special place. It isn’t for everyone, but if it is the right fit you know it.</p>
<p>It sounds like you’ve already made a decision but are having a hard time letting Princeton go. :)</p>
<p>I think your first decision is whether you want a school focused on science, engineering and math or a wider liberal arts education. If you want the former, then follow your heart to Mudd. If you want the latter, then the points of differentiation between Princeton and Williams are more nuanced, but still significant. If you get to that point in the decision making process you can explore the differences, but right now your choice is: Mudd or other?</p>
<p>I know what you mean by “I will have the Wall Street connections that might be useful in the future and be taught the social etiquette that I couldn’t have because of my background.” On both of these points, both Princeton and Williams excel, but whether only you can say if these are the most important factors in your education. There’s no question that Mudd students also do well in internships, jobs after graduation and graduate school acceptance. The difference is really more in the prevailing culture. </p>
<p>There’s also the east vs west coast factor. Although all attract students from all over the country, there are cultural difference and to some extent a regional bias in hiring, which may or may not be issues for you.;</p>
<p>All three of these schools have distinctive “personalities.” If Mudd reached out and grabbed you and the others didn’t, then I think you have your answer right there. </p>
<p>If you want to keep open the option to major in chemical engineering:</p>
<p>Princeton offers a chemical engineering major.
Harvey Mudd offers a general engineering major with course options in chemical engineering.
Williams does not offer any engineering at all.</p>
<p>All three have ACS approved chemistry majors.</p>
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<p>Harvey Mudd students do have convenient access to the other Claremont colleges, which can expand the options for humanities and social studies courses. Harvey Mudd also appears to have more humanities and social studies requirements than the other two schools (11 courses, versus 7 at Princeton and 6 at Williams).</p>
<p>I’m not sure how much access to the consortium impacts the personality of each individual school. It’s not just the ability to take humanities and social studies courses; it’s the mix of students. At Mudd all of your classmates will be majoring in math/science/CS or engineering. At Princeton/Williams your friends and housemates will be studying a range of liberal arts disciplines. The late night and dinner table conversations will be different.</p>
<p>I don’t mean to say that one is better than another – just different.</p>
<p>“At Mudd all of your classmates will be majoring in math/science/CS or engineering.” Not really true. Claremont’s consortium is really tightly knit, and most Mudders are acquainted with students from the other colleges.</p>
<p>Here’s Mudd’s catalog of ALL its engineering courses. NOT the reigstrar’s list of courses actually given in the last two semesters, which is what you really need to see:
<a href=“Engineering Courses | Engineering | Harvey Mudd College”>https://www.hmc.edu/engineering/curriculum/courses/engineering-course-descriptions/</a>
Note that every single one of the three or so courses that seem to pertain to chemical engineering are offered only a single semester every other year. This is what these teeny schools do, Now imagine if the one prof who teaches one of these classes goes on sabbatical the one semester you can take it. Or if that one guy, who teaches all three of those courses, happens to take a dlslike to you, or vica versa. (knowing profs. well can be a two-edged sword…) Or if you also want to take an advanced class in a different area, that is also given only every other year, in a single section, and it happens to meet at the same time, (This happened to my D1 at a very large LAC).</p>
<p>Williams doesn’t offer chemical engineering at all.</p>
<p>Sounds like a hard decision, but that you should knock Williams out because they don’t offer engineering. I have a relative that majored in engineering at Princeton and he was from a middle class family in CA, he made friends with a lot of varied students of different backgrounds. At his recent wedding he had a host of groomsmen from Princeton and one friend from HS. If you are the kind of person who is uncomfortable in new situations then it might not be for you. But if you are reasonably outgoing you aren’t going to have any problem. My Aunt said engineering at Princeton was a nerdfest, lol.</p>
<p>Thank you for everyone’s input!
I am unsure about my major - I am only sure that I want to stay in STEM, so that’s why I try to keep engineering from being a deciding factor.
I feel at home when thinking of Mudd, but I feel nervous and uncomfortable when thinking of Princeton. Do you think that I should wait until I attend Princeton Preview on 4/28 to make a decision? I am not sure the one-day event will give me an accurate picture of Princeton like my 3-day visit in the fall…</p>
<p>pleio, yes definitely go back to Princeton and see what your reaction is. If you can you should re-visit Williams too (as long as you sincerely can eliminate engineering as a deal breaker). It sounds like Williams might offer a lot of the elements that you like in both Princeton and Mudd with out the social pressure of Princeton and the singular focus of Mudd. The atmosphere is friendly and non-exclusive and you can expect a good deal of support both from fellow students and professors. </p>
<p>Take your time. You have two weeks: don’t rush the decision. Try to find students whom you identify with and talk to them about what they like and don’t like about their schools. You definitely don’t want an environment that makes you “nervous and uncomfortable,” but at the same time college is a time to stretch – both socially and academically – so think about how you can expand that comfort zone without jeopardizing your peace of mind.</p>
<p>Well… to be fair, Mudd will stretch anyone – the core there is incredibly rigorous. If you have the chance to visit again and want to, go ahead. But in the end trust your instincts.</p>
<p>Here’s a really silly thing- with Princeton, you absolutely can not transfer there if you turn them down. If you end up not liking Princeton (which would be rare), you could apply to transfer to Harvey Mudd, though it would be extremely difficult. </p>
<p>.
Personally I find it hard to believe you would be unable to find a suitable pool of like-minded individuals at Princeton. 1,131 people who received PhDs in Science & Engineering from 2002-2011 received their undergraduate degrees at Princeton. Versus 359 at Harvey Mudd. There’s nearly four times the number there engaged in serious science phd-oriented academics,at any one time, whatever their other personality characteristics may be. Yes you’d have to sort your people out from among the preppy Ibankers (some of whom you may find out you actually like),but this will likely happen, as they will be disproportionately in the classes & endeavors geared towards your common interests. </p>
<p>If it were me, I would choose Princeton, since I feel it offers more opportunities in the upperclass years. It is more likely to have coverage in a particular subspecialty you find yourself being interested in, come senior year, Should that happen. As it did to my D1, then she found nobody in her department at her LAC knew or cared about that sub-area of her field.</p>
<p>But at the end of the day If you prefer Harvey Mudd, then that’s your preference. From what I’ve read its program provides great, tough fundamental training, it is very highly regarded and students seem to be funneled in lucrative directions.
But it seems to me that graduate studies will likely be part of the package if you choose that route, since they offer relatively few advanced courses and, for engineering, they don’t give ABET accredited degrees. Unless you actually want a subspecialty where that doesn’t matter. (As opposed to being forced or funneled into a subspecialty where that doesn’t matter). And you won’t be exposed to everything that exists.</p>
<p>Suggest that, if you do revisit Princeton, try to find some seniors in labs there, who are planning to go on to grad studies, and address your concerns to them, find out how they approached things there,. Maybe try to set it up in advance.</p>
<p>Harvey Mudd offers ABET accredited engineering degree programs, but only for general engineering (where specialization into types of engineering is done through elective choice).</p>
<p>Thank you, @monydad ! I haven’t thought of advantage of the size of Princeton! That certainly made me feel more comfortable about choosing Princeton now.</p>
<p>That’s not to say though that your concerns were baseless or aren’t going to happen.
You probably WILL have big classes with TAs and less intimate relations with professors, during the underclass years. There probably WILL be a number of people in your freshman dorm whose company you do not prefer to keep.
Reasonable people can legitimately choose the other environment.
My intent is just to point out that there can be a trade-off, and the arrows don’t always point one way, as some on CC would suggest. My family learned this the hard way.</p>
<p>Monydad has a good point about any environment being what you make of it. Princeton would be an amazing school to attend, but like a few of the student’s I heard from at Mudd, it’s a little too traditional and would seem to stay the same if a student had applied 20 years from now. This isn’t a bad thing, but I’ve noticed that the students who tend to be interested in Mudd are also repelled by Princeton. Not only this, but also the fact that the faculty and professors have one main responsibility at Mudd: to teach. They do this exceptionally well, if Art Benjamin can be used as an example. On the other hand, Professor John Conway, amongst others, at Princeton is also incredible. But would he really put a priority at engaging underclassmen while working on prepping for conferences and research, even with Princeton’s focus on undergraduates? It’s a good question to think about, and one that a person’s graduate school/job recommendation may depend on. </p>
<p>The connection to Wall Street for Princeton is big plus, but Mudd’s connection to Silicon Valley should be taken into account. Ask yourself, would you prefer to be an iBanker or a Techer? As STEM is your passion, the answer may be leaning toward /<em>insert name of high tech company</em>/. And if the Silicon Valley feeder colleges are any indication, then Mudd should be given more thought.</p>
<p>I have a similar choice between a top 5 school, and it is difficult. It isn’t even brain v heart. Rather it is ears v heart. School that have a Brand are hard to turn down. Harvard makes a good example of this, even if for many Stanford, etc may have also been great schools. One more thing that I’ve been keeping in mind: four years from now, after all the internships, academics, clinic, etc, would you have equally amazing job prospects and/or graduate school options at Mudd compared to Williams or Princeton? I should think yes, and this answer+fit is what matters, not the reputation (which won’t matter if you’ll be working at a Google equivalent or attending an awesome grad school! )</p>
<p>Oh dear, the part about Princeton may have sounded harsher than intended. You really can’t go wrong with any of the schools, even if Princeton’s connections and brand are greater than William’s and Mudd’s. It may be best to visit Princeton, reflect on Mudd/Amherst, and go from there. Good luck!</p>