<p>Brooklyn College has Trish McCaffrey for voice. She is one of the most sought after teachers in NY.</p>
<p>Very funny, socomom. Would you believe that I actually laughed at myself while posting, knowing that my name, SimpleLife, would contradict all that I was confessing?! You’re right – this month, it doesn’t seem so simple! (very funny)</p>
<p>RE CUNY…thanks all…Queens is the school she is considering…she actually thought the talent level was pretty high there…attended a repertoire class last night, was impressed with the faculty, students were friendly…One big concern for us would be her safety…We’re from Midwest and don’t know the area at all…very concerned about how she would safely come home…say from Manhattan late at night after going to whatever it is she decides to go to…you get the idea…they are builiding their 1st dorm this year but it doesn’t solve the late night travel delima…Glad you all are so positive about the CUNY’s too that helps I’ve just not heard much about them! Any travel housing suggestion I would LOVE to hear! feel free to PM me.</p>
<p>Brooklyn College - Ursula Oppens, wonderful pianist and teacher, left a tenured position at Northwestern last year to return to NY and teach at Brooklyn College. I can’t imagine that this is not bringing some wonderful students their way! New York has a special draw for a lot of people and they don’t all teach at Juilliard!</p>
<p>Queens College is in Flushing and is considered a decent neighborhood in Queens. I would have no problem with one of my kids attending there. I have several friends in the area and know a bunch who attend. My niece actually attends Queens Law. Flushing is a mixed ethnic area, great restaurants and diversity. As to travel, to begin with she really shouldn’t travel alone to begin with but once she learns the ropes she’ll be fine. The subways actually are pretty safe in NYC these days.</p>
<p>To go back to the original topic, YES! I have been completely caught off guard by the stress and even depression of making a decision. Every choice–even for wonderful schools and the desired studios–means letting go of a different option. Thanks for posting this thread, I’m glad to know I’m not the only one.</p>
<p>There’s never been much question about which school my girl wants to attend, but their financial offer wasn’t as good as we’d hoped and I don’t have especially high hopes for our appeal, so the trauma has been if and how we’d pay for it. We think there’s a workable plan in place now so she should be pulling the trigger shortly.</p>
<p>Choosing for my D last year was very difficult. She knew where she wanted to go, but it didn’t make it any easier turning her back on the others. One thing that makes it more difficult in music is that there is usually - at least there should be - a specific teacher involved in the decision-making so it seems more personal. She had no interest in schools who had a “you get who you get” attitude about teachers so those were easier.</p>
<p>S is in the situation of trying to make the decision between 2 schools. He was assigned a teacher at 1 who he has not met yet so off we fly tonight for another full day visit tomorrow. We were hoping it wouldn’t come down to that. </p>
<p>Just to make things more complicated he also has to decide between a University program or Conservatory. I am hoping he will know as soon as he finishes his meeting with the teacher but if he really likes this teacher the decision will be more difficult. So many different factors have gone in to making this decision, he just wants to know where he is going to school so he can focus on that. </p>
<p>Another teacher keeps e-mailing him, almost daily, and it is pretty awkward since he knows he will definitely not attend that program, he’s just not quite ready to cut the string quite yet because they offered him the best scholarship. We do feel a bit guilty about that but the comments above make us feel a little better, it is all part of the teachers job to recruit. </p>
<p>Thanks for all the advice.</p>
<p>Just let me add to the chorus, don’t feel guilty, music teachers have gone through the same process, are in the same field and know damn well that students have to find what works for them, as they did. I would also agree that a program that took offense at a student saying no is suspect to me, that sounds like desperation, like they latched unto a great student and really hoped they would make their day, so to speak (music teachers are generally known, least in my experience, by pointing out their ‘successes’, like Dorothy Delay did after Perlman hit it big and became the doyenne of all violin pedagogues for a while…</p>
<p>Put it this way, I doubt many teachers feel all that guilty when they see a student they know has potential get bumped because the kid had a bad audition or some bureacrat rejected a student they liked (not saying they are not saddened, but they also wouldn’t fret that the student would think they were a monster). Itr is part of the process, in the end they know that students do what they need to, and if they get their nose bent out of joint I wonder how good a teacher they really are:)…</p>
<p>About the only thing I could think of to be worried about is if something happened like you told the school "My son really wants to go here, but the finances simply don’t allow it"then you get a good package and still say no, then I might think it would be hard. Like I said, to all those kids who really wanted to go to the school but were rejected, I am sure the school and administration didn’t lose much sleep.</p>
<p>One thing I am learning about the whole music business, schools and pre colleges and such, is that you really have to look out for yourself and not worry about hurting someone, that you have to almost singlemindedly be set on yourself and your needs. Not saying you need to be a nasty sam, but this world is just such a strange one that you kind of have to be worried only about what you need to do to get yourself going…in other words, it isn’t as genteel as portrayed in fiction and movies (I was in stitches the other day talking to the father of a girl in my son’s chamber group, he was busy telling my wife and I stories about when he went to Julliard on the violin in the late 70’s, how it was pretty much armed warfare between the teachers, with all kinds of stuff like teachers downgrading other teacher’s students in Juries while bumping their students up, and then having this drag out brawl over final marks for the kids…Galamian and Delay were notorious for that. Juilliard Pre college admission decisions are made totally by the office now, the kids audition to the panel, the panel scores them and then the office decides based on the scores and comments who to admit…for that very reason, to keep it from being bloody)</p>
<p>I’m one of those kids trying to make a decision. As a vocal perf/music ed double major, I’m really torn between University of Miami (Frost), University of North Texas, and Westminster Choir College. I’ve made a list of pros and cons for each schools, and this is what I’ve come up with:</p>
<p>MIAMI (FROST)
Pros:
~Campus
~Family approval
~Well-Standing Overall Academic institution
~Creativity & Innovation in both depts
~Metropolitan Area
~Easy to get in/out
~East Coast Culture/Environment</p>
<p>Cons:
~Expensive (I received a $20,000/year merit scholarship, but the fact remains that I will probably be in school for 5 years, and it’s a hunk of cash)
~Uncertainty of having a likeable private teacher
~Heat</p>
<p>UNT
Pros:
~Have a teacher to study with who I like and respect
~VERY VERY low Cost—money for apt, car, gradschool (4 years is costing me about $48,000)
~Intellectuality within music school
~Easy to get in/out
~Considered by head of voice faculty as “Top of the List”
~Excellent Music Education AND Vocal Perf</p>
<p>Cons:
~campus isn’t to die for–but music school buildings are pretty awesome
~Extended Family Disapproval–many members of my East Coast family are terrified of Texas…or anywhere outside of the east coast
~Lack of academic institution outside of music school
~Lack of people with similar religious values
~Predominantly Commuter School
~Practice Facilities are…in pretty bad shape.</p>
<p>WESTMINSTER CHOIR COLLEGE
Pros:
~Princeton!
~Great Reputation
~Good Private Voice Teacher
~Proximity to NYC
~Great Music Education AND Vocal Performance</p>
<p>Cons:
~Campus is terribly lacking
~Too close to home
~No diversity in musicians–only organ, piano, and voice</p>
<p>Sorry for the long post–any opinions/ideas/suggestions? Thanks!!! And good luck to everyone!</p>
<p>theantidiva - are you able to rank the teachers? I think that should trump many other things. When you mention a private teacher at WCC, would you have a teacher different from the voice faculty at the school. The main pro I see for WCC is the huge voice faculty. If things don’t go well with the initial teacher, there are many excellent choices.</p>
<p>I thought it would be a lot more difficult than it turned out to be. My D will be going to the school that was her first choice ever since she set eyes on the campus 18 months ago and most importantly, she is HAPPY! That is what this is all about, isn’t it? We have been there through the nights with croup,starting school, chicken pox, all of those school concerts, plays and musicals, first dates and break-up, proms,and soon, graduation day- and all we have wanted since the pregnancy test was positive was for our child(ren)to be happy. As others here have said, the teachers talk and it’s nice to hear all the pleasantries, but there will be other students for them and if our child chooses another school their names will soon be forgotten. I’ve been told we were lucky, that everything worked, but there really wasn’t anything “lucky” about it, unless you count the fact that a teacher we hadn’t even known of was sitting in on D’s audition and she turned out to be the perfect match- we did our research beginning way back in 9th grade, made contacts, checked out programs and teachers (well, the teacher part needed to be " tweaked" every year and the prof she had decided upon left suddenly, so that’s where the new teacher came in) and visited at a time when there was no stress. The FA award came in, wasn’t enough so we appealed and received a favorable decision less than 48 hours later. Have to say that we knew about the decisions weeks before they were “official”, in writing, and that was the most difficult part of the whole time- I’m not good with secrets! So now, her choice has been made and the deposit check sent in and we’re working on the mass of paperwork that now is part of this process (it wasn’t like this years ago!); all that remains is to get through graduation and her senior recital without crying my eyes out and then cross off the days until August, when we make the drive to Cleveland to drop her off, a week before her 18th birthday. I won’t be with my precious daughter on that day which all kids seem to deem as the “doorway to adulthood”, but children are only loaned to us and there comes the time when we can only hope that we’ve done our job and helped prepare them for what they will face without a parent’s arms to shield them. I wonder if, someday, some of us- the parents here- will find ourselves in the same opera houses or concert halls, with our children as performers. It would be great to know that and I hope that at least some of us will keep in touch in the future. I’m afraid that I’ve gotten a bit off track here, but, to sum up, no, this final part of the process hasn’t been hard at all for my daughter or for me- it’s been fun and a real delight and I’ve enjoyed watching as all of your kids had acceptances come in and I will enjoy tracking those final decisions just as much! It’s nice when things have a happy ending, isn’t it?</p>
<p>Just some thoughts that hopefully will help:</p>
<p>1)Everything I hear and see about music training relies on the teacher and to a certain extent the program (I can assure you, with my hand over my heart, that some highly ranked conservatories have teachers I would not send my worst enemy too, while some lesser known ones have jems). With your first listing, the Miami one, you seem to be saying you didn’t get great vibes from the department and also didn’t know about teachers. </p>
<p>I would be concerned about that, it seems from your post at least, that you didn’t really get to know any of the teachers and so forth, and that troubles me (If I am wrong, sorry about that). If you aren’t sure about the teachers, how do you know there is someone there you can work with, or you will respond to? Even with academic subjects teachers vary in how well they teach, but with music I have found it is so much in personal dynamics, that even a great program, with 100% generally rated top notch teachers, may not be a match for you. That to me is the most important thing…if NT and westminster seemed to have better match for teachers (or as someone else pointed out, Westminster has so many teachers that you are bound to find one you like), then (and this is to me,just an opinion) they would weight more heavily then the Miami program, since knowing is more sure then not knowing. If there is some way at this late date to check out the teachers, to try and meet with them or at least talk to them on the phone, get whatever info you can. </p>
<p>2)Obviously, the college environment is important too. Being in a place where you feel a fish out of water, depending on how severe that is, could make the experience difficult, no matter how good the program is.When you are college, despite what parents seem to think (forgetting how they were at college) you don’t work 24/7, even as a music major:). Being in a place where you don’t feel stimulated or otherwise motivated can be a problem, it is a real concern. I will add that sometimes when you first experience a place you can feel like a fish out of water, but over time you come to find you like it, so you have to be careful about an impression being the realm. Still, for example, I would have a problem being at a very conservative school, that probably would be a deal breaker for me, so you have to weigh that. </p>
<p>I would be less concerned about the practice facilities, unless they were so limited or in such bad shape that the interfered with your ability to practice (like limiting students to 1 hour of practice time a day or something like that). My brother went to Columbia U in the late 70’s, I went to NYU in the early 80’s, and take it from me, the facilities then were pretty bad (though being in NYC had its rewards, of course) at both places. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, there are no simple answers like “Go to X, dummy!”, it doesn’t work like that.I would give the most weight myself to the teachers, to where I felt I would get the best instruction and where they would work with me, and then use the other stuff to weight out the small differences. Obviously, a great teacher at a place where you are otherwise miserable isn’t worth much, but a great place with a lousy teacher isn’t worth anything either. </p>
<p>My one urge to you would be to try and find out more about the teachers at the Miami program somehow, so at least you have some knowledge. Frankly, with no knowledge, it would be a crapshoot as to how good it would be…</p>
<p>The other point is that things may not be set in stone, if you find a program doesn’t work you can always transfer. You might find that after a year at X, you have gained enough ability so that you could even apply to Y, the school you didn’t apply to this time because you figured it was unreachable:)…in other words, there are always alternatives.</p>
<p>One other thing - find out how changing voice teachers is viewed by the faculty. My D’s voice teacher from high school is working with a student who left a very well known conservatory because of the teacher nightmare but was warned that switching teachers would be the kiss of death. She felt she had no choice but to leave and take private lessons elsewhere. It is not uncommon for a teacher who you think is perfect for you turns out not to be so you may as well know how a switch will be perceived. The only real way to know this is to talk to other students about it - many faculty memebers will tell you it is not a problem even if it is very frowned upon.</p>
<p>Mezzo-</p>
<p>I hear what you are saying about kids, it matches my own thoughts and experiences.Though my son is not close to college/conservatory yet in age, he is in the high track with music already, he is passionate about it and is doing everything possible to track that way. And it is hard, there have been times when he has been frustrated, having issues with feeling like things weren’t working, and it is so hard to recognize that other then support him as best we can, there really isn’t much we can do…but we still want to, of course, want to give the teacher a tonguelashing for being too hard, want to run out and find that miracle that will help past the issues/dramas…but alas, they have to be lived (within reason…one of these days).</p>
<p>A therapist I know, a wise women who had raised 4 kids, said that as long as they can tie their shoelaces and go to the bathroom by themselves by the time they are ready to go off to school, they will be fine and we have done our jobs <em>smile</em></p>
<p>theantidiva, the decision IS hard, isn’t it? What you really want is some from column A, some from Col B and some from Col C. When DD was facing this choice she took a last trip to the teachers. When she settled on 2 equally good teachers, she went with her gut as to where she could “see” herself for 4 years. In the end, fit is a gut feeling. </p>
<p>When I read your statements, you say you have 2 great teachers and one unknown. Unless Miami so consistently gets great teachers that you are not concerned, it may be a deal breaker for them. </p>
<p>Then the 2 good teachers - Those are pretty dispersed locations so you might have to go back on the internet to the school web cams and virtual campus visits to refresh your memory. Listen to performances if they post them. Then close your eyes and “see” yourself there. Interacting with the teacher and students, performing, learning, socializing. </p>
<p>You have the additional concern of the music ed. Do all of the schools give you what you need to be certified where you intend to teach? If that is the case, then it is a non-factor. Check to see if they turn out teachers that stay in teaching. Not just placing students when they graduate, but can they tell you how many are still teaching 5 years AFTER they graduate? That means they were well prepared and made it through the tough start. </p>
<p>Finally, are finances an issue? Can you use the money you save going to UNT to do other things? Special summer programs, travel, grad school? If you go to the expensive option, do you limit these options? </p>
<p>And as musicprnt said, this choice isn’t forever. If you made a mistake, students do transfer. Might be harder with your double degree, but it is done. </p>
<p>This is a very stressful time. Take a deep breath and relax some, too. You’ve got some great choices with great scholarship offers. You obviously are talented and will be able to be successful when you do decide. Best wishes and let us know.</p>
<p>cartera45: If by ranking voice teachers, you mean assessing which teachers I like the best and who I know will guide me to my fullest potential, I have done that, and my gut feeling lies with UNT. With WCC, I spent 2 weeks there at their High School Solo Vocal Program, where I was assigned a teacher, but I’m not 100% sure he is the person I would like to study with should I choose to go there. I know of a few other professors there who I would consider studying with, but I have not met them in person–they’ve been recommended to me by friends who are currently students there. Also, I’m the kind of person who goes to all costs to avoid conflict, and I would be very afraid to switch voice teachers unless I felt I was getting vocal nodes or something. So, I’m trying to find a relatively permanent solution. </p>
<p>Musicprnt: With the exception of the Head of the Dept, I’ve had sample voice lessons with all the classical voice faculty at UMiami. I’ve seen the way they work, and my main concern is that with my heavier darker voice, the faculty will try to lighten my voice and make it smaller. </p>
<p>Singersmom07: Thanks for the advice. My only problem is that I can more or less see myself in all these places–I made sure that when I applied to all my schools, they were places I could actually see myself going. Early on, I eliminated those where my gut feeling told me I could not be happy there. </p>
<p>My mom wants me to decide by Sunday where I’m going to school, so I can start arranging for housing and get on with the process. My time is running out! I hope I make the right choice.</p>
<p>UNT is the best over-all music school of the group. The academic reputation of UNT is fine, you will be able to learn everything you want and need to learn. Texas is not forever, but you will make some wonderful contacts with other musicians there which will be forever, and that will help you all your life. Good luck.</p>
<p>theantidiva-You finally said that you can see yourself at any one of the schools you’ve narrowed things down to. Can you actually site down and think through WHY you said that and what attracted you about each school to begin with? Did you visit them before you auditioned or was your only contact at the time of the actual audition? At this point,
the biggest question seems to be can your FAMILY live with you being in Texas, when it should be, can YOU live in Texas? Remember that you said that you don’t like heat; well, Texas, even the nothern part is not exactly the tundra, so you’ll be living with fans and AC there too. In looking over everything you wrote down, UNT really seems to be the best of the bunch.
Re.Frost, we know Dean Southern who is back there now, teaching, and he seems to be good with sopranos, but if it isn’t a good “fit” for you, then don’t let others, even if they are related, push you into something that just isn’t right for the person and the singer, you are(you might want to PM opera-mom with questions about Frost because her D is going through a similar dilemma and made a special visit down there; another perspective, especially from someone not close to you might be helpful).
WCC- we know someone there in the MT dept and although it’s a good place for those planning to specialize in choral rep, it’s not been known to attract the best in faculty or students for VP. You say that it’s close to home- could you stall mom for a week and get over there to meet some of the other faculty members who have been reccomended to you? That might shed some light on that end of things.
Just in passing-I always shudder when I hear young singers talk about “lightening” or "darkening’ their voices- that’s never right, the voice simply “is what it is” and trying to stuff it into a mold is going to cause problems from the get go.</p>