have zollman scholars received decision yet?

Colleges and Universities A-Z Smith College
21

<p>CD, my daughter is a Math major and fwiw, a large percentage of students (don't have the number at hand) are majoring in the science. If you're trying to paint Smith students as math/science-phobic, you're quite mistaken. And, fwiw, I started out life as an engineering student with a strong bent towards physics, so the caste is not unknown to me...nor are they some isolated group at a place like Smith. And nobody at Smith apologizes for being smart, one of the things I like about the place. </p>

<p>Your daughter sounds like an excellent fit for Smith and Smith must have agreed, else they'd not have offered a Zollman. </p>

<p>However, it's entirely possible that you, on the other hand, need an attitude adjustment about LAC's in general and womens colleges in particular...and I don't know that a casual visit would be sufficient to accomplish that.</p>

<p>TheMom and I started the whole process being biased in favor of large research universities and perhaps a little dubious about womens colleges. We're both graduates of research universities and she's spent better than a quarter of a century working at UCLA, so we know a little about them. </p>

<p>Smith has won us over and is an outstanding fit for our Math-Government double-major daughter currently in a very challenging Math program in Budapest...a couple of weeks ago she spend 80 minutes of a 90-minute phone call burbling about Cantor sets, Greene's theorem, and telling a combinatorics joke about "putting zero objects into zero sets." In one of her classes, she's in a competition with an Eli that sounds like a mathematical judo contest...her math background at Smith has left her lacking with neither confidence nor ability.</p>

<p>As much as there is such a thing as a typical Smithie, she is.</p>

22

<p>
[quote]
I don't need to apologize for being smart, because I'm surrounded by smart women in a number of fields, both related and unrelated to mine.

[/quote]

Well said Borgin, well said!</p>

23

<p>TheDad:</p>

<p>Don't speculate about what I know or dont know about Smith. My wife is a very active alumni and I have made uncounted visits to the campus and spoken to many current and former students. According to the Smith CDS, 16.84% or about 1 in 6 students major in one area of the natural sciences, mathematics, engineering or life science at Smith. Not an insignificant number, but by all counts a small minority. </p>

<p>I do believe that a large number (I would estimate at over 50%) of students at Smith (and many other LACs for that matter) are math and science phobic. An open curriculum does not necessarily help in fostering an interest in fields outside of one's comfort zone. This does not mean that the minority of students interested in these fields cannot thrive or integrate with the broader community of students majoring in the humanities. But the reality is, it is perfectly acceptable to graduate from Smith as scientifically or mathematically illiterate, a premise I find questionable at best. </p>

<p>I do admire the efforts that Smith has made as women's college in trying to make the campus more science friendly by creating new departments such as engineering and the plans for the new science center. It is still a tough row to hoe to get students to take classes in these fields, particularly women, and the jury is still out whether women's colleges will accomplish that objective with greater success that coed schools. </p>

<p>I never questioned the fact that LACs can provide a more balanced curriculum of humanities and science classes than a research university. I questioned whether LACs could provide the same level of RESEARCH as research universities and I remain unconvinced that they can. So, in the end, from my perspective, it is a trade-off between breadth versus depth. My daughter will make that trade-off based on her own interests not mine. She does not want a pure premed track, neither does she want to be at a disadvantage when applying to med school when the time comes.</p>

24

<p>Congrats on the Zollman from a Zollman dad! Mine called us from Florence today, where she continues to have a blast. She is taking a class at the university on the history of musical instruments (right up her alley), and flying to Bratislava in a couple of weeks, on her way to standing room at the opera in Vienna, and to visit her Hopkins House friend who is doing Jewish studies in Prague.</p>

<p>I just can't say enough about the education she has received (gee - I'm already wist-fully speaking in the past tense!), and, financially, the Smith folks have been very helpful to us (especially as my wife is now recovering from breast cancer.)</p>

<p>Cellardweller - I actually as a general matter would agree with you about the research opportunities. However, I can also tell you that, as a Zollman-STRIDE, my d. had a research opportunity specifically built around her interests where none had previously existed. The result (for a musicology/Italian studies major) was a production score of the first opera ever written by a woman, performed at Smith as part of the Five-College Opera Consortium, and which, with introductory essays, is pretty likely to be published next year. I know something (at least a little) about the record of publications that have come out of STRIDES working in Steve Williams lab, and I wonder (I don't know, I just wonder) whether these kind of paid research opportunities exist for first- and second-year students at most research universities. </p>

<p>Good luck with the choices! (Isn't it great to have 'em?)</p>

25

<p>Congratulations to your D, Cellardweller!</p>

<p>The two schools are so different from each other than I imagine that your D already knows in her heart which would be better for her. Are you still waiting on other schools?</p>

26

<p>Thank you mini and Momwaitingfornew:</p>

<p>I do agree that the Zollman + Stride may open options not otherwise available at Smith. This is certainly one exciting area my D will try to explore further over the coming weeks.</p>

<p>On the other hand, she is still trying to recover from the shock of acceptance to MIT which is longshot for anybody. </p>

<p>She is still waiting for Yale, which was her top choice and where she was deferred in the early round. She loves the Hogwarts style of the school and the residential college concept. Yale would appear to offer the best of both worlds (LAC feel + research) but she is not holding her breath.</p>

27

<p>I can tell you that for my d., in the humanities, Yale had nowhere near the level of opportunities for research that Smith has. I once was a TA and grad student at Chicago, and, other than undergrad theses, undergrads had NO during-term research opportunities there either (and certainly no paid ones) - that's what they paid me "the big bucks" for. </p>

<p>But, again, the sciences may be very different. Make sure you kick the tires.</p>

28

<p>
[quote]
On the other hand, she is still trying to recover from the shock of acceptance to MIT which is longshot for anybody.

[/quote]

Being a legacy helps, oui????

[quote]
But the reality is, it is perfectly acceptable to graduate from Smith as scientifically or mathematically illiterate, a premise I find questionable at best.

[/quote]

In the spirit of "individual liberty and largeness of opportunity" Smith College has since 1970 had no distribution requirements for graduation. In the interest of "discipline" each student must complete a major, to give depth to her studies, while to guarantee breadth she must take at least 64 credits outside the department or program of her major. As for "system," the college assigns each beginning student a faculty member as academic adviser; each student later chooses a major adviser. Students, in consultation with their advisers, are expected to select a curriculum that has both breadth and depth, engages with cultures other than their own, and develops critical skills in writing, public speaking, and quantitative reasoning
<a href="http://www.smith.edu/acad_prog_liberalarts.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.smith.edu/acad_prog_liberalarts.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Smith's open curriculum rests on the conviction that students need to be active participants in their own educations. Smith's curricular structures reflect the ideas that education should be responsive to each student's particular intellectual interests and desires; that education is a process of intellectual growth rather than the static transmission of knowledge; and that the development of moral character is as important as the honing of intellectual skills.</p>

<p>The Smith Curriculum encourages students to learn the knowledge and ways of thinking of a range of academic disciplines, to practice habits of self-reflection and empathy for others, and to examine and articulate the moral convictions that will guide them through life. The advising at Smith is extensive and highly commendable. The women attending need to be perceptive, open-minded, questioning, articulate, and intelligent. And to gain latin honors status at graduation, the women must take some distribution credits from different academic areas. I would be certain that a Zollman scholar has that type of individual love of learning, and would most certainly, through her acceptance at Smith, take courses outside her comfort zone. Brown has had this type of curriculum for many years, and is quite happy with it. The selection and variety of students that Smith accepts does play a major role in continuing this open curriculum. These are bright, articulate young women who don't need a college to tell them which courses they need to take. The greatest learning comes at the moment of biggest risk. Smith College seems to know this and has two policies in place to encourage students to take risks: the open curriculum and the pass/fail grading option.</p>

<p>Smith has experienced gradual shifts in majors and course enrollments over the past
twenty years, with declines in humanities and social sciences offset by increases in the natural sciences and engineering as well as in interdisciplinary programs. With 30%of students majoring in the sciences, Smith far outpaces the national figures for the
proportion of undergraduate degrees to women awarded in the sciences (18%). Among the graduating class, approximately 20% earn Latin honors, and 7% earn departmental honors, recognizing successful completion of an honors thesis. These rates have been fairly steady over time.</p>

29

<p>"But the reality is, it is perfectly acceptable to graduate from Smith as scientifically or mathematically illiterate, a premise I find questionable at best."</p>

<p>I think it is indeed the case that one could graduate from Snith as scientifically or mathematically illiterate, but I can say with some degree of certainty, having attended a school with ticky-tacky distributional requirements (Williams) and taught at one with a core curriculum (UChicago) that neither of these approaches would necessarily save one from the same fate. </p>

<p>I think the more important question is the degree of responsibility given to students to decide such matters. In 7th grade, I was required by the august faculty and administration at my school to spend 6 weeks with a sliderule, thought critical for my future worldly success as an educated citizen. By 10th grade, they were already becoming heirlooms. ;)</p>

30

<p>As a humanities person, it bothers me that many science-oriented schools allow their students to graduate "humanities-illiterate." (I know little about MIT, so I'm not attacking it specifically.)</p>

31

<p>what's good for the goose, is good for the gander!</p>

32

<p>So, for me, it is funny - I graduated from a well-known math/science magnet school in NYC, and in 9 years of college and grad school following, never took another math course (and still haven't). So now I do quantitative analysis in my work - go figure. </p>

<p>At Oxford (where I spent two years), undergrads only study a single subject. An English major will never set foot near a science lab (I didn't even know where they were!) They figure that breadth is the responsibility of high schools.</p>

<p>(Let's not get into a discussion of the merits of high schools these days. ;))</p>

33

<p>Although this reflects my personal bias, I find the most interesting scientists to be semi-fluent in the arts/literature, and the most interesting humanists to be semi-fluent in the sciences. </p>

<p>Can you tell that I'm a strong proponent of a liberal arts education?</p>

34

<p>Never would have guesed it!</p>

35

<p>Momwaitingfornew:
I agree with you that a well rounded college education is most desirable. It is true that in Europe (where I grew up) college education tends to be very specialized, and that high school serves the purpose of providing breadth of education. I recall taking philosophy, three foreign languages and economics as required subjects in high school in France, packed in an 8:00 AM to 6:00 PM school day. A French kid after the Baccalaureat or a German kid after the are much better prepared for a post-secondary education than US high school kids. (which is why they often get sophomore standing when enrolling at US colleges). </p>

<p>While I know LACs where all math/science is optional I don't know any tech schools where student can avoid the humanities altogether. At MIT a minimum of 25% of all classes have to be in the humanities. I don't know about schools like Caltech.</p>

36

<p>Mini:</p>

<p>I agree that it is hard to mandate litteracy in any subject. </p>

<p>Among schools with a pure core, Columbia is often touted as having the broadest curriculum. The problem is the core has largely remained unchanged for 50 years, and one could argue if it still provides a relevant education. The other downside is that you really don't have any choice even if you happen to have mastered some aspects of the core already. Harvard seems to have more of Chinese menu approach to its core, where a popular choice for the science requirement is the study of dinosaurs. </p>

<p>MIT as many other schools has chosen to have general distributional requirements in a number of fields outside of one's major. They seem to go through a significant review of these requirements every ten years or so to account for changes in needs. Should a mechanical engineering major for instance be required to take chemistry and biology classes, should biology majors have to take a computer programming class, should study of a foreign language be a requirement, how many writing intensive classes should be required, can the humanities requirements be packed in one discipline or should they be spread across several areas. </p>

<p>Finally you have the open curriculum schools like Brown, Smith and Amherst. I can see that format useful for some students with a clear perspective on what they want to learn and the maturity to choose wisely. For the less organized it can be a disaster. My niece is a junior at Brown and I still have no clue as to what she is actually studying. (I don't think she knows either). This free format certainly does nothing to encourage kids who were already math or science phobic in high school to experiment with these subjects in college. It is often precisely why these kids choose a school with an open curriculum.</p>

37

<p>"This free format certainly does nothing to encourage kids who were already math or science phobic in high school to experiment with these subjects in college. It is often precisely why these kids choose a school with an open curriculum."</p>

<p>I agree - up to a point. Yes, you can avoid science, or literature, or history in an open curriculum, but I'm not sure the students at Smith, Brown, and Amherst are likely to do that. These are the types of students who love learning for learning's sake.</p>

<p>I don't know much about Amherst, but I know that Brown and Smith encourage students to take academic risks by allowing the pass/fail option. This allows students to take courses they might ordinarily shy away from, for fear of failing. </p>

<p>I've discovered that Smith's learning environment <em>really</em> encourages academic risks, particularly in the sciences. Part of that comes from the "nurture women" philsophy. As I've said elsewhere on these forums, my daughter, who is extremely strong in writing, literature, and foreign languages/cultures, has decided that she might like to major in neuroscience. If you had asked her in high school whether she would major in science, she would have said, "No way!" Smith has brought out the confidence in her to take the risk of a difficult course of study.</p>

<p>Also, you cannot graduate with Latin Honors (the cum laudes) unless you take courses that satisfy distributive requirements. This includes both a quantitative course and a natural science course. (Other requirements: art, foreign language, history, literature, and . . . someone can help me here.) So, yes, you can graduate from Smith without having ever taken a science or a literature course, but you cannot graduate with honors.</p>

<p>I don't think it's necessary for all undergraduates to take biology, chemistry, and physics since individuals have different strengths and interests. I'm guessing, CD, that since you are a graduate of MIT, you have an affinity for the sciences and/or math, but surely you cannot expect every college graduate to have that same leaning. I agree that it's important for students to sample other disciplines, but I don't think it's necessary for them to go into depth in areas that are not their major.</p>

38

<p>Social science is the seventh. :)</p>

39

<p>From a previous post:
In the spirit of "individual liberty and largeness of opportunity" Smith College has since 1970 had no distribution requirements for graduation. In the interest of "discipline" each student must complete a major, to give depth to her studies, while to guarantee breadth she must take at least 64 credits outside the department or program of her major. As for "system," the college assigns each beginning student a faculty member as academic adviser; each student later chooses a major adviser. Students, in consultation with their advisers, are expected to select a curriculum that has both breadth and depth, engages with cultures other than their own, and develops critical skills in writing, public speaking, and quantitative reasoning
<a href="http://www.smith.edu/acad_prog_liberalarts.php%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.smith.edu/acad_prog_liberalarts.php&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Smith's open curriculum rests on the conviction that students need to be active participants in their own educations. Smith's curricular structures reflect the ideas that education should be responsive to each student's particular intellectual interests and desires; that education is a process of intellectual growth rather than the static transmission of knowledge; and that the development of moral character is as important as the honing of intellectual skills.</p>

<p>The Smith Curriculum encourages students to learn the knowledge and ways of thinking of a range of academic disciplines, to practice habits of self-reflection and empathy for others, and to examine and articulate the moral convictions that will guide them through life. The advising at Smith is extensive and highly commendable. The women attending need to be perceptive, open-minded, questioning, articulate, and intelligent. And to gain latin honors status at graduation, the women must take some distribution credits from different academic areas. I would be certain that a Zollman scholar has that type of individual love of learning, and would most certainly, through her acceptance at Smith, take courses outside her comfort zone. Brown has had this type of curriculum for many years, and is quite happy with it. The selection and variety of students that Smith accepts does play a major role in continuing this open curriculum. These are bright, articulate young women who don't need a college to tell them which courses they need to take. The greatest learning comes at the moment of biggest risk. Smith College seems to know this and has two policies in place to encourage students to take risks: the open curriculum and the pass/fail grading option.</p>

<p>Smith has experienced gradual shifts in majors and course enrollments over the past
twenty years, with declines in humanities and social sciences offset by increases in the natural sciences and engineering as well as in interdisciplinary programs. With 30%of students majoring in the sciences, Smith far outpaces the national figures for the
proportion of undergraduate degrees to women awarded in the sciences (18%). Among the graduating class, approximately 20% earn Latin honors, and 7% earn departmental honors, recognizing successful completion of an honors thesis. These rates have been fairly steady over time.

[quote]
This free format certainly does nothing to encourage kids who were already math or science phobic in high school to experiment with these subjects in college. It is often precisely why these kids choose a school with an open curriculum.

[/quote]

I disagree with this. This works vice-versa as well. An open curriculum school is not for everybody; just those who value an opportunity to choose the courses they find interesting, and who have the maturity to handle the situation. Fortunately, the women that Smith accepts are those kinds of students.</p>

40

<p>CD:"My wife is a very active alumni". Actually, she's a very active alumnA.</p>

<p>I know this thread has gotten very far from the intentions of the original poster...who must be wondering who all of these old farts are dragging up old threads....but just want to note that MANY LAC's have some kind of distribution requirements..which include math and science...we've been through that before on another thread. </p>

<p>And...anecdotally...the young people I know attending Brown and Smith did not choose the schools because of the lack of general education requirements...and all have taken humanities, social science and science courses.</p>