Hi CC folks, my D just got accepted to Barnard, Haverford and Smith. We’re happy with the results but she’s torn, and we’d love some input from the CC community.
My D is an artist and musician, an intellectual, an academic heavyweight, an activist. She’s interested in art, womens issues, english, music, dance. She’s quiet and a bit awkward socially, and is looking for a mixed campus of down-to-earth, friendly students that are engaged and serious about their studies. She likes Haverford bc it seems friendly and academic, but worries that it’s not artsy enough. She doesn’t need the whole campus culture to be counterculture (in fact she disliked Oberlin for being too “alt”) - but needs at least something of an artsy/ activist/quirky population to keep her from feeling isolated. Thoughts? As for Barnard, she loves the academics and the urban access but has heard that the community isn’t super-warm. Also, with the number of communter studetns she wonders if she’ll have the intimate campus experience she wants. Smith seems like it has it all - the arts, the activism, the community feel, but the location isn’t ideal - far from a city and its opportunities (mostly art and music shows), plus it’s a much longer trip from home in San Francisco (direct flights to NYC and Philly).
She’s also into St. John’s College (the Great Books school) and Whitman in WA, waitlisted at Tufts and Vassar.
We’re planning overnight revisits for Haverford, Smith and Barnard, and is right now visiting St. John’s. We’ll se what that yields.
Parent of Barnard grad here. Also from SF Bay area.
I’m confused by your comment about “number of communter [sic] students” — I left your spelling error because I’m not sure if you meant “commuter” students or something else – but Barnard definitely is NOT a commuter school. AFAIK, first year students are required to live in campus housing unless their parents are local, but the vast majority of students are coming from other places. Because of the high cost of rents in NYC, very few students move off campus in later years – it’s just not cost-effective. All first years live on the quad, so it is definitely a residential college experience.
That being said, it is an urban school, so student life tends not to be campus-centric. While there is plenty to do on campus (including Columbia) … there is more to do off, much in very easy walking distance - and if not easily accessible via subway, bus, cab, etc. NYC is vibrant and intense, and I think Barnard is probably best for students who strongly goal-oriented and independent minded. So I can’t tell from your description whether Barnard would be a good fit for your DD or not. (My DD was a NYC or bust type, and still lives & works in NYC 7 years after graduation.)
I wouldn’t really consider the Barnard community as artsy or quirky although many of the students there have arts backgrounds and interests.
Barnard is by far the best school out of those three. If she wants to be in an academically rigorous environment, you can’t get more intellectual than Barnard/Columbia. Plus, if jobs and prestige are important to her, then Barnard would be the best. Barnard women get degrees from Columbia, graduate at Columbia University graduation, and take classes/ join clubs/pre-professional societies/sororities/sports teams at Columbia. The connections and network she will make at being at one of the top universities in the world as well as NYC will help her a lot.
Most people at Barnard also intern during the year, so getting jobs is super easy. Also, the community is very warm at Barnard and almost no students commute at all. I think around 99% of students live on campus and if they do not live on campus, they live in apartments super close by. Barnard has produced so many famous alums in the activist and artistic community. Also, I have heard it’s hard to meet boys at Smith but at Barnard it is super super easy to meet boys since it is an undergraduate college of Columbia University and in New York City.
Parent of a first year Smithie here. I think a visit to all three is wise. My D loves Northampton and the area surrounding Smith. She tries to get off campus daily - visiting NoHo as well as Amherst via the bus system. Even though they are small towns, there is a lot to do and see. It certainly isn’t New York or Philadelphia. But she has not felt that the community size is limiting. She visited Bryn Mawr and thought NoHo/Amherst had more to offer because she could more easily access it.
My D has enjoyed her courses and has found them challenging. I suspect that the academic opportunities at all three colleges will be excellent. Two weeks ago, her history professor took her and another student to a lecture at Amherst College. The Amherst College religion department then took the three of them out to dinner at a “fancy French restaurant” after the lecture. She sat at the table listening to them discuss “end time” theories of different religions. While I am sure that these opportunities exist at other LACs, I think it requires the student to say “yes” to the invite and get out of their comfort zone. Smith has provided that opportunity for my D. She is contemplating either a philosophy/history/english/religion major - sometimes the open curriculum can make it hard to focus.
I don’t know how “warm” Smith is. I think some of the students place high grade expectations on themselves. This has never been an issue for my D as she is more learning focused than grade focused. She reports life can get pretty stressful around exam time and I think the pressure can be contagious. However, they seem supportive of each other.
The pressure is there but she does not feel anyone is competing with her directly. Again, I suspect this is the same at all three colleges. However, she has found friends and, even though she never dated in high school, a boyfriend who attends UMass. I never would have thought it.
We are from Central California. The flights are horrible. Bradley airport to Smith is easier to navigate than Boston.
Just want to clarify - by “on campus” at Barnard I am including university-provided housing that is physically located in buildings that are outside the campus boundaries – some are right across the street, some are located blocks away. My DD loved living 10 city blocks away her senior year — and in some ways had the benefit of an off campus feel – but it was in a building with many other Barnard students, managed by Barnard Housing. And it really wasn’t farther than some students who attend schools with very large campuses have to walk from their dorms to classes which may be located at the other end of their campuses.
While my DD would agree with @NYCGirl33 about Barnard course rigor, I imagine that Haverford and Smith students (and their parents) would not. All 3 are peer institutions that pride themselves on strong academics. Barnard currently has the lowest admission rate, so harder to get into – but any one of the choices would be fine academically. It really comes down to fit – and I do think that the travel is something to consider. My daughter had to return home unexpectedly once in a semi emergency – and also ended up traveling overseas multiple times during her college years - so easy access to 3 major hub airports was a nice benefit.
I think the overnight visits are a great idea. They all have different vibes and she might find that one really fits her better than the others. I can tell you that Haverford does have an artsy/ activist/quirky population and that it is not on the same scale as Oberlin. And that there are intellectual and friendly students there. I don’t know enough about Barnard or Smith to really compare them. We did visit Barnard, however, and my D didn’t get a “warm” feeling while on campus (but that doesn’t mean it’s not there), nor did she feel like she would enjoy that urban environment. If you daughter prefers urban, though, as many people do, I will say that Barnard definitely delivers. Hope this helps.
“Warm” just isn’t part of NYC culture – it’s not that people are unfriendly, it is that they live in an environment where cultural norms are different. But it might actually suit a student who considers herself socially awkward, because there are fewer social expectations to meet. That is, people are unlikely to take offense (or even notice) if she doesn’t smile and say hello when passing someone on campus - and if she is naturally introverted, that can be a nice respite.
Just chiming in to say – the essence of Haverford is the experience of community – the Quaker traditions strongly influence mutual respect and accountability, which creates connections. Haverford traditionally (I say, as a BiCo community member from the '80s) had strong visual arts and BMC had strong dance. The beauty of Haverford and Bryn Mawr is the BiCo community – easy cross registration, cross majors etc., as the campuses are, literally, 1 mile apart. You have a morning class on one campus, lunch, class on the other. Or class on one, class on the other, lunch etc. Haverford is about 20 minutes from Philly by commuter rail, though the last train of the night can be earlier than some college night owls realize – we all had stories of being “stuck” in Philly after missing the last train out. Both schools are intellectual, BMC tends to be quirkier.
Can’t go wrong with any of these three, all excellent educational opportunities.
@NYCGirl33 “Barnard is by far the best school out of those three.” Can you provide evidence for this? Haverford students have higher SAT scores on average than both Barnard and Smith students, and whereas Barnard does have its relationship with Columbia, Haverford also has a relationship with Bryn Mawr, Swarthmore, and Penn.
@tonroxmysox Haverford’s acceptance rate is 21% and Barnard’s is 14.8%. Don’t get me wrong both are great schools and I did not mean to offend you! Also, Haverford’s relationship with Bryn Mawr, Swarthmore, and Penn is very different than the Barnard/Columbia relationship. First off, its much further away than Barnard and Columbia are from each other and none of those schools share faculty/have the same degrees. The relationships aren’t the same. Barnard is affiliated with Columbia and the gates state “Barnard College of Columbia University”. The other schools are in a consortium.
@NYCGirl33 As @midwestmomofboys articulated well above, the relationship between Haverford and Bryn Mawr is extraordinarily tight. Many of the departments are synced up so that one school houses them. For example, religion is at Haverford whereas archeology is at Bryn Mawr. Also, I don’t want to turn this thread into only a comparison of student strength because OP shouldn’t make their decision based solely on that, but I had to respond to your claim that Barnard is “by far the best.” Haverford’s new acceptance rate is 19%, which is yes 4% behind Barnard’s. Acceptance rates are arguably the easiest admission statistic to game, although Barnard is indeed a very selective school. Just to refute your claim that Barnard is academically superior, here are the SAT scores of the entering class of 2020 (which is a good proxy for the strength of students).
Barnard 25th to 75th percentiles:
SAT Critical Reading: 640-740
SAT Math: 630-730
SAT Writing: 660-750
ACT Composite: 29-33
Haverford 25th to 75th percentiles:
SAT Critical Reading: 660-760
SAT Math: 660-760
SAT Writing: 660-760
ACT Composite: 31-34
One thing I have to say about Smith and Haverford grads is that they proudly say they are Smith and Haverford grads. EVERY Barnard student/recent grad I know endlessly touts Columbia, including listing it as a college on their LinkedIn profile and their resume. Yeah, I know the 2 schools are connected but…just saying.
I think the people at USNews would disagree with the claim that Barnard is the best of the three by far.
I don’t say that to be snarky – I just don’t want the OP to be misled.
They’re all good schools that happen to be in good partnerships or consortia, making them even more outstanding than they are on their own (which is more than adequate…).
@doschicos – it’s next to impossible to attend Barnard for 4 years without also attending Columbia (U).
And your anecdotal experience aside, my DD’s linked in profile lists “Barnard College” as her college. I think that’s simply the way Linked In works – you pick a school that matches their index – see https://■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■■/school/19150
But in the “experience” section – yes it says Columbia. That makes sense considering she held leadership positions in Columbia student associations & had a paying job working for a Columbia academic department.
Rather than reviving this tiresome old Barnard v. Columbia debate, suffice it to say that Barnard is a semi-independent subsidiary of Columbia, and any student at Barnard will by definition also be a student at Columbia U, and will receive their degree from Columbia U.
For the OP’s daughter that can be a plus or a minus, because it is highly likely that along the way the student will experience various academic issues which tend to be common in larger research universities, like large classes with recitations and labs led by TA’s, papers being graded by TA’s and disputes that sometimes arise from that. You could take the position (as we did) that Barnard represents the best of both worlds: LAC + research U, women’s college + co-ed — or you can take the position that Barnard doesn’t provide enough of of whatever it is that the student was seeking in an LAC or women’s college.
But anyone who thinks that Barnard courses are any less demanding or rigorous than the courses offered across the street by virtue of the sign on the school gate simply hasn’t been there.
My niece is a freshman at Barnard and loves it! She is definitely an activist and a serious student (Andover girl) and has been having a great experience. Good luck!
Thanks for all the good thoughts, everyone. It’s true, I think, that Barnard is the most well-known and prestigious of the three, but prestige is a much lower priority to my daughter than social and academic fit I think. And I think all three schools look like a decent academic fit. They all seem to have strong programs in the areas that are most interest her: studio art, art history, english and gender studies. Classes are mostly small and the students engaged. (Correct me if I’m wrong or you think there are significant differences in quality here.) Therefore, it seems to me that social fit will be the real issue. As she’s an introvert I think she’s counting on lots of campus activites and organizations to help her make friends - so that will be important. She mentions joining (or forming) a band, doing set design on a play, volunteering with a campus group, things like that. She wants a vibrant campus with lots going on - lectures, concerts, events. If Barnard is not as campus-centered, maybe that’s a problem?
The stats about Haverford are interesting - higher scores and GPAs are in some ways more revealing than acceptance rate (which in any case is, as you say, under 19% this year). Then again, high SAT’s don’t always mean interesting or engaged students - they sometimes mean kids that have been programmed since birth and have stopped taking risks. Which isn’t saying they aren’t an indicator - they are. But they are just one factor.
Hmm, the campus visits next week will be very revealing. Do you thing we should also visit our waitlist schools, Tufts and Vassar, to see if they should be high priority? I hear if you tell admissions they are your first choice you have a better chance of getting a spot. Or should we just focus on the schools my daughter is admitted to?
I would not complicate things by adding WL schools to the revisit decision process. It’s impossible to know if the list will move. You can communicate that it’s your first choice by email, and it may help - if serendipity makes your daughter the demographic they are looking for. If Vassar or Tufts go to their list, it could be for boys.
If you getthe call, you may want to drop everything and rush there, but it won’t be any different than going on your own now as WL students cannot attend admitted students events.
Looking at the stats of admitted students to compare schools really isn’t helpful – Barnard is very holistic in admissions and seems to greatly value diversity of background – my daughter’s test scores were terrible - 27 ACT - but she graduated at the top of her class. My daughter was probably admitted because of quirks in her background - she attended a performing arts high school and spent a semester as a foreign exchange student in Russia— she also had a strong GPA but far fewer APs than many student, because of the impact her half-year abroad had on course scheduling, and also weak STEM offerings at her artsy high school. But the point is-- the ad com wasn’t looking at her test scores, they were looking at her essay about her experience living in Russia. And they were assembling a class full of diverse, interesting, and often worldly students. These are not students who prioritized studying for standardized tests. You can look at the Barnard results’ threads and see that there are plenty of very high stat kids who get turned away.
In fact, I’ve been watching the Barnard forum for more than 10 years now–and while I avoid weighing in on “chances” threads, I can always tell which ones are the most likely to get in by the way they describe their EC’s.
Also, if your daughter wants to find clubs and activities on campus, she’ll find them. It’s just that It won’t be a situation where there is some event on campus and every student on her dorm floor is attending it – because there is so much to do, on campus and off, that the students are likely to be going different ways and doing different things.
And keep in mind that “off campus” includes all the cafes and shops immediately adjacent to the campus – whenever I visited and walked with my daughter down Broadway we’d run into people she knew at just about every street corner Physically that is not part of the campus, but it definitely has the feel of being part of the campus.
All that being said, however, I’m not sure that Barnard would be a good fit for your introverted daughter. You know that essay prompt, “majoring in unafraid”? – to me that really captures something quintessential about Barnard – and while I think an introvert could thrive at Barnard, I do think the student needs to be proactive and take initiative.
@ jennisgarden. I personally would not visit waitlist schools. Why make a complicated decision more complicated with factors that may not matter? If the status of a WL school changes, then you can consider.
I find this thread very interesting, mostly because of the Barnard feedback. Barnard is a great school in a city that millions of kids would like to study in. NY is great. I would suggest to you that the acceptance rate for Barnard is a combination of NY and the association with an Ivy. Yes they are related, but when Columbia has a 6% acceptance rate, there are many good students who will apply to Barnard as either Plan B or as a side door to an Ivy (completely reasonable strategy). I would suggest that the honor code keeps a lot of “what the hell” Common App submissions down at Haverford. I haven’t asked / studied this, but it feels odd that Swarthmore would have a 10% acceptance rate while Haverford’s is nearly double (19%). They are similar is look and feel, with Engineering being the one major academic difference. I suspect the Honor Code scares some folks off, which arguably makes it that more valuable.
The comments (including yours at #15) state that Barnard is the most well known and prestigious. If you have daughters that have been academically successful who might consider NY for college, Barnard (and Smith) comes onto your radar. If you have boys…unless you looked as a woman when you were younger…you wouldn’t know Barnard at all. Haverford definitely isn’t a household name brand, but it has almost fanatical support from those who attended or know of it. In the general population (especially outside the Northeast), neither carries much of a brand.
Statistically Haverford is the more difficult school to gain admission. Ignore acceptance rate (as you suggest). One poster noted that her daughters ACT was horrible (27). At Barnard, that score is 1 point below the 25th percentile, meaning it’s absolutely in the range. At Haverford, it’s 4 points below the 25th percentile, placing it outside the range.
All of these schools seem like they would fit your daughter. One thing Haverford has that some introverts really appreciate is the Customs Program. Basically, all freshmen come approximately a week before school starts. Each hall constitutes a customs group, with three older students who live on the hall the whole year (no RAs) and other older students who participate in activities with the specific Customs Group. One of the main points of Customs is to facilitate bonding for freshmen, and it gives most people an automatic friend group. I haven’t done it justice here, but you can read more about it at this link: https://www.haverford.edu/customs
