Hazing at Vandy?

<p>Do his friends not invite him to events that they can invite him to? Or were they not connected enough at the time pledging began to continue that friendship when they got busy with the fraternity? Or are fraternities that narrow?</p>

<p>My D has friends in sororities … they do things together. Of course, my D’s experience might not be relevant to your S’s, because she would rather do just about anything other than go to a fraternity party. She has, however, found plenty of things to do on campus, in the community, with friends she has made. </p>

<p>It might be hard for your S if he really wants to be part of the greek scene, though. Can guys rush again? Girls can, but I don’t know about guys …</p>

<p>I think it’s very different for girls than it is for the guys. My D is in a sorority and they do have parties other than formal and semi-formal where some may take dates, but many just invite girl friends for a fun girls-night-out. The situation for guys appears to be very different and much more exclusive.</p>

<p>His friends who pledged dropped him second semester since they were always at the frat. He goes to some of the bigger parties, but never really feels comfortable since he is an outsider and is treated that way by the frat boys and the girls who are only interested in hanging around with frat boys. It’s a warped world since there’s no way to find other people in the same situation.</p>

<p>If he is interested, please encourage him to consider getting involved in activities. My D felt a bit out of place her first year, but when she became involved in several activities that interested her, she found her niche. There are other people like your S … it just may take some work to find them. What actually really helped my D was her semester abroad. She gained a ton of confidence in her ability to make friends when she knew absolutely no one. In addition, being on her own helped her to develop so many other skills. If possible, I highly recommend study abroad.</p>

<p>As for the boy who was dropped by his friends after they joined the frat, and he was rejected, perhaps the explanation for why they did that is in an earlier post in this thread:</p>

<p>

Once his “friends” bought into the system, perhaps that was their perception of him.</p>

<p>I want to bookmark this thread for reference when one of the general discussions about Greeks comes up again.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>You’re right. If your idea of college fun is an Model UN party on Friday night, then sure, there are things to do if you are not in a fraternity (girls don’t have to be Greek to enjoy the benefits of Greek life as much as guys do). Let’s be realistic though. When most people think of “fun” in college, regardless of your opinion on the matter, they think of loud music, beer pong, bar hopping, etc. And this is certainly true at a school like Vanderbilt. But even if that isn’t your definition, it’s still significantly more difficult here to find things to do socially than it is at a school not dominated by Greek life. </p>

<p>I’m glad that your daughter seems to have found her niche, but I’m sure it took her more effort than it would have at another school. And since one’s undergraduate career is only four years long, why go out of the way to make it more difficult when one could attend another school that isn’t as Greek-dominated? I’m simply trying to help prospective students who fear that the largely cutthroat Greek scene is not for them.</p>

<p>As a side note, I have plenty of guy friends who are utterly bored now because they have nothing to do on the weekends. Their story parallels that of topbrass’s son. It’s unfortunate, but sadly, it’s the nature of the school’s social scene. No sugarcoating can deny that fact.</p>

<p>With that said, however, I do predict that the prevalence of the Greek scene will diminish over the next ten years as Vanderbilt increases the diversity of its student body.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>This describes what I’m talking about. Someone’s bound to say, “Oh, well, they aren’t true friends.” Even if my best friend joined another fraternity, I would still feel like an outsider when around that fraternity, simply because of their exclusive, club-like nature. And that’s the main problem with Greek life here at Vanderbilt.</p>

<p>It’s not nearly as big of a problem at larger state schools, where fewer percentage of students are Greek. It’s much easier to have fun in similar ways that Greeks do without being Greek.</p>

<p>My son is at a state school with plenty of open parties every weekend. He has friends, but he is bored on the weekend … because he is not a fan of getting wasted. He would love to have as much to do as my D, simply by virtue of the fact that she is in a wonderful city with lots to do … and he is on a state school campus, in a campus town. So actually, it’s “easier” for her than it is for him.</p>

<p>My point is simply that not everyone wants to party, and I am also willing to bet there are partiers who party as independents.</p>

<p>

I’ve never understood this. 35 percent of guys at Vandy are Greek. Is it your assertion that 2/3 of Vanderbilt men have unhappy social lives? Why is the student retention rate so high, then?</p>

<p>Not giving you a hard time - I’d really like to understand. I realize I’m bringing an adult’s perspective to this, and you’re the one on campus every day, not me. But I agree with kelsmom that Greek life is important to people in Greek life, which is 1/3 of the men and 1/2 of the women at Vanderbilt (illustrating the old saying that “to a hammer the world looks like a nail”). It just flies in the face of common sense to think that such a large number of students have unhappy social lives at an institution with a retention rate of 97 percent.</p>

<p>That’s a good point. However, I’d venture to say that the retention rate remains high purely because Vanderbilt is the top-ranked school for many applicants who ultimately matriculate here. That is, if getting a degree from a prestigious school is a priority, then they would probably think that it’s worth staying here, regardless of any social woes they might have. That’s just my guess.</p>

<p>I guess I’ll add my perspective to it, having just read the article. I was accepted ED1 and was super excited. I’d heard that greek stuff was prevalent, but I figured it wasn’t a huge deal because I’m a social guy and I assumed that if I wanted to go to a party, I could. Getting wasted every single weekend doesn’t sound appealing, but going to parties, meeting people, and maybe having a few drinks does. So I’ll just say that I’m freaking terrified now. Someone said how their son or friend or whatever wanted to go to a party and literally was turned away, and I’m picturing that image in my head right now and getting really sad. Turned away from a party? I mean, a tiny exclusive little thing maybe, but a legit frat party? I’m obviously unfamiliar with what occurs, being a senior in high school and all, but i really really hope that isn’t the case. I’m probably not going to join a frat, or pledge as soon as I get there or whatever, considering I want to go to grad school, and getting good grades is much more important. I’m not super nerdy, nor was I a straight A student in high school by any means, (or popular for that matter), but I’d still like to think that i’d have a fun time.</p>

<p>I really thought that people at Vandy were friendly and, at the end of the day, brilliant. I can imagine some jackass high schooler turning away ‘lame’ kids from a party. Can going to parties and partying in general really be reserved for the select few? Seriously? I can understand not everyone wanting it, but I’d think that the kids who did want to would have no trouble finding a place every weekend. </p>

<p>It’s really something I was looking forward to. No cliqueiness or popularity, just everyone being friendly to each other. Now I know that sounds super naive and I know that isn’t true anywhere, but i would hope that people at vandy aren’t jerks, even the self important guys who run the frats. </p>

<p>I’m going to Vandy, and I know I’ll like it, but this thread really disturbs me. And the current student posters aren’t helping by their saying things like “the uncool kids dont have a right to go to parties.” Come on. Someone tell me I’m overreacting here.</p>

<p>Enjolias: First of all, I wouldn’t get too worked up over all of this. I am sure you will find your niche at Vandy. That being said, it can be a little cliquish at times, but I don’t think it is any different at other colleges. Frat parties are always a little less welcoming for non-member guys than they are for girls - no surprises there. Whether you pledge or not, there are other groups on campus that also have social functions and when you get to be a junior or senior living in a suite instead of a single or double, you can have parties of your own which many do on a regular basis. By getting involved in other organizations on campus as a freshman, you may find yourself invited to some of these parties. My advice would be to attend all the fraternity parties you want first semester freshman year while the houses are open to meeting potential pledges. You can decide then if it is for you or not. It’s college: there will always be parties. But it’s also Vandy: it’s tough academically and every frat does not have a party every weekend. It’s up to you to look for your social opportunities elsewhere if you don’t join a fraternity, but there are certainly other opportunities for social interaction outside of fraternity life. There are plenty of other kids at Vandy who have lofty goals for their futures and choose not to dedicate the time to fraternity life. Fraternities may be the most visible party scene, but it is not the ONLY party scene. As someone pointed out earlier, only 35% of the men at Vandy are in fraternities. The other 65% are NOT spending their time in the library all weekend, every weekend. You will find your place, just go with an open mind and get involved on campus. Good luck!</p>

<p>Enjolias, I love you right now (no homo). You pretty much said what I’ve been feeling ever since I was accepted. I’m not a really outgoing guy or extremely talkative until I know people, so I’m in the same boat you are. Plus, I hate… HATE drinking. I’ve tried it and it’s no fun for me. Not even with your best friends. Personally, my idea of fun was a good chess game. Hah, jk. Nah I always thought like just hanging out with guys and making jokes, playing sports was way more fun than drinking all weekend :confused: unfortunately, this really goes against popular opinion. You guys might’ve seen my other post on here, and I have to say, if I didn’t think Greek life was so bad here, I couldn’t care less if Vandy was a bit worse academically. It’s just the possible combination that:

  1. I have no friends and no social life.
  2. I have to study all weekend due to boredom and then ultimately do it at a school that might not be as renowned as other schools that have a majority focus on work and no play.</p>

<p>I have been around the Vandy board since 2005 when eldest son really wanted to go to Vandy and was admitted but decided to go to Duke instead. His reason? He loves to play in a symphony but didn’t want to be in a conservatory symphony so he was pleased at Duke where he also joined a frat and went abroad and learned to be fluent in another language and had many other non frat adventures with independent and Greek friends. In my opinion, Vandy is a much happier place to go non-Greek than Duke and many other places that are isolated in smaller towns. Durham is not nearly as safe and stimulating as Nashville which offers so much to scientists artists and people interested in government or education or business steps from freshman campus. </p>

<p>There were only 11,000 or so applicants back when eldest son applied and this year you are looking at 26,000 plus applicants. I know you smart ED admits can do that math. Vanderbilt is super national and international in its student body now and it is only accelerating. The students are bringing so much diversity and keen ability to campus it will make your head spin and most of them are rugged individuals with interesting back stories. Hey…some of you will be among the new class. Vanderbilt’s Greek life is part of its culture and is connected to alum and it history but the student body of 2011 doesn’t look very much like the alum of the past anymore. </p>

<p>I have lived in Nashville twice, once in graduate school, so I know it well. It is a truly inviting friendly city with endless things to do on weekends. My independent Vandy son tells me this week that his problem is that he has events four nights this week that he really doesn’t want to miss, some off campus and some on campus. And he goes to plenty of parties on and off campus. He studies on weekends some now in order to make sure he can go out a lot at night. He is at Vandy on merit dollars and even with his choice to be a second class (ha jk) independent student, he got completely buried by second semester his first year in all the activities he is interested in on campus. In fact, he was having so much fun he almost forgot to study for a few weeks. Not studying hard would be a huge mistake since everyone at Vanderbilt knows how to do the academic work required…you have to stay focused. </p>

<p>His second year housing plan includes students oh well, best not to say details but students who speak five different languages and students from every corner of the USA and outside of it and who make him seem like a hayseed and they are all great friends who are planning to travel together and who support each other even though they all have different special interests and talents. When he needs an ear or advice…they are there.</p>

<p>Guys there is always someone on this board like VandyDore–pretty much every year if you look back… or whatever his moniker is this year-- who ardently believes that life at Vanderbilt is “Greek dominated” and everyone else is "doing geeky UN activities on Friday night. (how was that for egocentric and snide? some welcome to admittees on the fence re rushing or who are already planning to be independent!) Please. Please don’t take the opinions of one person in a one frat about your lousy prospects for a fulfilled social life to heart on this board. </p>

<p>And another thing…don’t let his posts prejudice you too much against the students who are in frats and sororities either…there are plenty of really gracious nice people with multi faceted lives at Vandy who are Greek and who don’t believe that their Friday nights are so rarified and envied by those who aren’t interested. There are also probably lots of guys in his frat who would never post such sad tidings for those “second tier” students who may rush and not be invited into frats. </p>

<p>What are you going to do? Eliminate all great universities with Greek systems because you find it off-putting? that would be foolish. Who wants to eliminate UVA, Dartmouth, Emory and Chapel Hill on that basis. Don’t get psyched out re Vandy’s Greek scene. Instead congratulate yourselves for getting into a great research institution smack dab in a great town with great sports on campus and off campus and tons of concerts steps away. Vanderbilt has school spirit, a significant alum network and a fine reputation but it is also a place where people are gracious and the town is both relaxing and stimulating.</p>

<p>My advice to you is to bear up and tolerate those few Greek people who have such warped ideas about the specialness of their weekends and exclusive rituals-- as if the rest of the student body isn’t also “playing hard.” Some people with this attitude grow out of it and become really great classmates later on, so indulge them and try not to judge them too much but most certainly don’t cede your own judgment over to them. Believe me, if you eliminate Greek classmates from your social life you lose out because obviously there are great future adults in Greek organizations and vise versa. Stay open minded and open hearted whether you rush or not because all of your classmates are worth knowing. </p>

<p>And your classmates will evolve over four years time and will surprise you. As a parent, I know that you also never want to judge anyone too harshly who is only a freshman or sophomore in college because we are all works in progress. I would not care to be remembered forever for my limitations and insecurities at age 19 and neither will you. But there is a reason that the word Sophomoric is defined as deluded and immature. </p>

<p>The reason Vanderbilt is hugely targeted by some of the best and brightest and most genuine 18 years olds in the country is because it is a massively important institution in its region of the USA and you are going to feel it as soon as you settle in. The graduate schools alone bring all sorts of reality to campus daily and the undergraduate school is the best of small and personal and warm and friendly and large and diverse and stimulating. The place it big enough for you to change your mind, change your friends and change your major a few times and that would be normal.
you are going to have a wonderful wonderful four years and you are going to meet and get to know people who will be your friends forever. My son learns so much from his classmates and housemates and from the students who also staff the two or three programs on campus where he puts in his time outside of class. Although Vandy can’t be Haverford or Davidson re constant access to faculty, you won’t be disappointed there either. My son has had outstanding instruction in small classes with intimate lectures and in larger classes. He hardly ever comes home and travels on his weeks off and will be going abroad next year and living in another city this summer. He has gotten letters of reference from three or four teachers in only three semester for various things he tries to do–he doesn’t get every opportunity he tries for but some doors have opened for him and they are there for you, too!..the interviewing, applying and dreaming has only begun…there are many many new opportunities at Vanderbilt that you can’t even see yet that are there for you to take advantage of if you are thinking and have your eyes open.</p>

<p>Believe in yourselves and see the good in every one of your classmates on the Commons next year and be generous in spirit when a good portion of the student body checks out the Greek scene. You will be fine which ever way you go socially. Good luck sorting out the Calendar of Events that will arrive in your “in” box daily at Vanderbilt …competing with your five classes and with your many new commitments and friends.</p>

<p>Oh come on now, this is starting to get out of hand.</p>

<p>paupowpew and enjolias, please don’t take the negative posts to heart. I know for a fact you can stay independent (not join a fraternity) and be happy. I didn’t join one and everyday I think about how much fun I had at Vanderbilt. As far as frat parties, maybe I was just lucky, but I was never denied from one. If you’re not into frat parties, there are always dorm room parties or get togethers. I regularly hung out with other guys on my floor and girls from my dorm. There are plenty of other things to participate in as well - Casino Night, VandyLAN, Dance Marathon, concerts, movies, plays, fundraisers, sporting events, student groups, volunteering. The list goes on. Plus there is all of Nashville to explore. You are not going to be sitting on your butt studying and feeling sorry for yourself if you do not go Greek (unless that’s what you want to do). At times, there was so much going on that I had to be selective in my activities or I would have made some pretty bad grades. </p>

<p>Bottom line, don’t be intimidated or scared. PM me if you have any questions.</p>

<p>Here’s my theory on how you can tell whether a campus is dominated by the Greek scene: ask the students what you call somebody who isn’t in a fraternity or sorority. If they look at you blankly, the campus isn’t dominated by the Greek scene. If they say, “an independent,” ask more questions.</p>

<p>Absolutely stellar post #33, Faline2! As per usual - some of your posts about Nashville 5-6 years ago helped my d feel that she wouldn’t find it at all stifling or unwelcoming there. (And she didn’t. :))</p>

<p>I’m really tired of parents getting on here, who clearly have no idea what fraternity rush is actually like, and saying how terrible it is. It’s like saying you know what pledging is like here. Unless you go through it, you will never actually know.</p>

<p>Look, it comes down to this. If you rush more than 2 fraternities (like they tell you to at every vandy rush meeting) are a cool guy and not completely socially inept, you will almost certainly get a bid. I know all of you think your son is the most popular social butterfly, but if he didn’t get one bid, he just isn’t (unless he really ignored all advice given and rushed one fraternity from the beginning). Sorry if you don’t want to hear that, but it’s true. Joining a fraternity is not a right that you somehow get just by being accepted to Vanderbilt.</p>

<p>Yes, you can have fun not in the greek system, especially if you’re a girl. But if you like drinking and girls (like 99% of guys do), you will certainly have more fun if you join a fraternity.</p>

<p>

Your assurances certainly make me feel better…</p>

<p>To the OP:
Hazing at Vanderbilt is a reality but a dwindling one. Greek life has changed drastically in my 3 years here. A lot of this coincides with the increasingly strong academics and Vanderbilt’s push upward in the rankings. Since my freshman year, 4 fraternities have been kicked off campus/had their charter revoked. Sig Ep lost their charter freshman year, Phi Kap last year. Phi Delt got kicked off my freshmen year and are back. Phi Psi received 2 years of suspension and will return next year and DKE recently came off of two years of probation. Pi Kappa Alpha will be kicked off campus next year. Currently Kappa Sig, KA, AEPi, Phi Delt, Lambda Chi and ZBT are on probation. ZBT will likely be suspended for a long time due to a hazing incident. ATO just came off 5 months of probation. The school has attempted to water down the fraternity system by pushing for new “unhoused fraternities” which started with the creation of FIJI earlier this year. </p>

<p>Furthermore, school rules regarding pledgeships have changed. My freshmen year, the rules were limited. Granted, the same “rules” regarding hazing were in place (Vanderbilt has a no hazing policy; everything falls under hazing), but it was common to be pledging daily until 3 or 4 in the morning. Starting last year, the school instituted curfews at midnight on week nights and 3 am on Friday and Saturday. Now, as of last week, the Office of Greek Life demanded that pledges get one day of the week off from pledging and now the hours between 11am-4pm are “optional hours” where they don’t have to be pledging. In my opinion it’s a shame. The sleep deprivation was bad, and I’m glad that’s something they’ve worked to change, but many of the new rules cheapen the process and unfortunately for the pledges mean that the older brothers will feel that the new process is not commensurate with what they went through.
Just my opinion, but most of what I stated is a fact.
Feel free to PM if you have any other questions.</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>Exactly. It seems as if the only ones who refute comments stating that the school is Greek-dominated are parents in denial. We, however, are students who live here each day and see what occurs on a daily basis. I have plenty of friends who are Greek and plenty of friends who are not Greek. And those who are not Greek have a more difficult time finding things to do. Does they mean they don’t have fun? No. It just means that they have to be more creative (attending Belmont parties, etc.). Opportunities aren’t simply handed to them as much as they might have been at schools.</p>

<p>I’m sorry that I came off as snide with my Model UN comment. I said it to get a point across though. If you were to take a poll of the Vanderbilt student body, I would bet that a significant majority of kids say they enjoy parties where drinking is involved. Not necessarily binge drinking or “raging,” but at least some form of collegiate party atmosphere nonetheless. To say so otherwise would be somewhat naive.</p>

<p>The bottom line is that the Greek system here does dominate social life. Personally, I wish it didn’t. Does that mean that non-Greek students cannot have fun? Not necessarily, as evidenced by some examples in this thread. It just takes more effort.</p>