Heart vs. Head: U Chicago on Rubenstein vs. HLS @ sticker

Graduate School Law School
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<p>DS has been offered a Rubenstein scholarship (full tuition + $10K stipend) at U Chicago for 3 years (with no strings such as min GPA requirements etc). The deadline for committing to the Rubenstein is 4/15.</p>

<p>He also just got into HLS (his dream school), which does not give merit scholarships. We will not know about need-based aid at HLS for a while, however, since they do take into account parents' income, assets etc., I suspect the HLS package will be mostly loans. We are currently paying for another child at a private college, so that may help the HLS financial package. Our contribution toward law school will be $10K/year. </p>

<p>DS does not want to specialize in a particular type of law, does not want to work in biglaw/corporate, but definitely does want to work in public interest after law school, and wants to consider the LIPP program at HLS. We have instructed him to do exhaustive research into this, but not fall in love with it.</p>

<p>It is obvious from similar threads here as well as other forums that the only rational thing to do is to attend U Chicago and graduate debt-free. I do not need much elaboration on this point. My question is: Are there tangible/intangible reasons that would make one walk away from the scholarship and attend Harvard? Also, how risky is the LIPP strategy?</p>

<p>Thanks in advance.</p>

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<p>Congrats to your son on two excellent options!</p>

<p>I actually attended a school with a program very similar to LIPP and would qualify for its income/job requirement thresholds, but nonetheless declined to participate. Some of those reasons have to do with the particular track that I’m on, but some of them are general to such programs.</p>

<p>The two major concerns I have with LIPP are:
(1) It makes a very small exemption for spousal income, and then proceeds to count the rest of spousal income as your income for purposes of the program. If you get married, you risk losing subsidy support, and depending on how much your spouse makes you might lose LIPP eligibility entirely.
(2) It has a maximum amount of savings that you’re allowed to accumulate per year – so if you live very frugally on your small income, the school is going to want a piece of the savings as well. I believe that the total when I applied a few years ago was about $10,000 per year, but obviously your son should look into the details to verify.</p>

<p>These features, along with others, are because LIPP is a last-resort program meant to prevent people from having to default on their loans. It is not meant as a replacement for, or even a reasonable competitor to, a scholarship. Its aim is not to help make law school more affordable, but to serve as a last-ditch safety net if everything else goes wrong.</p>

<p>Under that view, the marriage structure and the savings structure are not a FAULT in the program. Somebody who marries a spouse with an income really can afford their loan payments better, and somebody who manages to save up money really can afford their loan payments better too. </p>

<p>But if you’re trying to use LIPP to compete with a scholarship, it’s going to look like LIPP is “punishing” you for getting married and living frugally.</p>

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<p>You could do some creative family living situations to take advantage of LIPP. Some folks basically do get married but refuse to make it official because the “penalty” is so steep, for example, and there’s probably some ability to alter spending and saving behavior between non-spouse spouses.</p>

<p>But LIPP essentially means: you can only take very-low (or very very high) paying jobs; you either can’t get married, or you have to have a very wealthy spouse who’s willing to pay your loans; you can’t build savings; and you have to stay in a very-low paying job, even if you don’t like that sector of work, for at least 10 years.</p>

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<p>Now, with that said, there’s one other point to make going the other way.</p>

<p>(The other thread you’ve seen is a bit different, because (1) that poster could probably increase his LSAT score to gain merit aid, and (2) we’re talking about different schools there.)</p>

<p>I know several people who were awarded Hamilton Scholarships, Columbia University’s full tuition. From the gossip I’ve heard, a very small minority of Hamilton recipients actually take them. In the circle of folks I actually met there were absolutely zero – and in fact, nobody I know seriously considered it over Harvard or Yale. I’m not 100% sure why.</p>

<p>There are some differences between Harvard and Columbia. Of note, some of the public interest jobs many students are interested in – international human rights, for example – tend to be filled almost exclusively by Harvard and Yale grads. Working at a high-level position in the executive branch won’t be quite so lopsided, but will also show a clear preference. Federal clerkships again will not be totally lopsided, but will show a clear preference for Harvard over Chicago.</p>

<p>We allude to the Hamilton a few times in these threads:
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/1094469-t14-vs-full-tuition-stipend-t20-school.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/1094469-t14-vs-full-tuition-stipend-t20-school.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/1103033-chances-hy.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/law-school/1103033-chances-hy.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>My post-2008 advice is “Don’t go to law school unless you go to Harvard or go for free.” Your son has both options available. </p>

<p>Some of the other posters make very good points about loan balances affecting the ability to get a house, qualify for a mortgage, or buy a car, even if the school is repaying the loans. Talk to your son about those things.</p>

<p>If your son starts law school at 22, he will graduate at 25, start paying loans at 26, and, if on HLS loan repayment, stop paying those loans at 36. Unfortunately, you are phrasing this as a “heart versus head” decision, but HLS will also mean a lot of “heart” sacrifices - if he hates law, he’s stuck in it because of the loans. If he meets his dream girl and marriage will ruin their loan repayments, then his heart will take a beating. </p>

<p>We are giving 22-year-olds the ability to bind their 35-year-old selves to decisions made over a decade ago, to the values that were in place at that time. Sometimes, it works out; other times, it’s an epic disaster, on the order of the Hindenburg crashing into the Titanic. But if you are doing a “heart versus head” analysis, I think you’re starting at the wrong place. It’s “22-year-old heart” versus head, and possibly also versus older heart, analysis. </p>

<p>If I were you, I would talk to your son and ask him to remember being 12. Then, imagine that his 12-year-old self did something amazing and fabulous, but that something still affected your son to this day. Then talk about how he has changed, his values have changed, and how his life has changed since middle school, and ask him to consider that signing up for HLS will be the equivalent of that.</p>

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<p>

Hey! Both me, thank you very much. :)</p>

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<p>[url=&lt;a href=“6 Keys to a Stellar Law School Resume - Professional Resume Writers”&gt;6 Keys to a Stellar Law School Resume - Professional Resume Writers]Harvard[/url</a>] is a bit more portable than [url=&lt;a href=“6 Keys to a Stellar Law School Resume - Professional Resume Writers”&gt;6 Keys to a Stellar Law School Resume - Professional Resume Writers]UChicago[/url</a>] but I can’t see paying a quarter million for the privilege. Especially given their overall employment outlooks aren’t all that different. Harvard is better than UChicago, but only marginally so.</p>

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<p>Congratulation for the wonderful choice your son is facing. Would he be visiting the schools? I believe there is an admitted student weekend on 3/9 for HLS and perhaps registration will still be opened. One thing to consider is the grading system at each school. I understand that Harvard has gone to a more relaxed curve, and many students view that favorably. I don’t have much more to contribute except to note that you did use the term of “dream school” to refer your son’s view on HLS and that should count for something. I know, tough but pleasant choices and congratz.</p>

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<p>Bluedevilmike, i think the yield rates of both Hamilton and Columbia are low. But both scholarships are offered to additional applicants and filled. From reading various blogs, I gather that many students do get substantial grants from H and Y, which would not be unreasonable to expect. I know that my D is leaning toward a sticker price choice but will not decide until visiting the schools.</p>

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<p>Thank you all very much for your detailed and well-reasoned posts and links, esp re impact of LIPP/LRAP on life’s realities. However, Bluedevilmike perfectly summarized the dilemma with “…very small minority of Hamilton recipients actually take them … nobody I know seriously considered it over Harvard or Yale. I’m not 100% sure why.” Is this still happening in the post-2008 era?</p>

<p>So far on the pro-HLS side: “dream school”, slightly more portable, marginally better, preferred for certain jobs (e.g. federal clerkships). </p>

<p>Padad, yes, he will visit both schools asap. Also, you said “many students do get substantial grants from H and Y, which would not be unreasonable to expect”. Are these data available anywhere, or should we search blogs like CC and TLS? Is there a way for DS to estimate (before 4/15) how much grant money to expect from HLS?</p>

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<p>""…very small minority of Hamilton recipients actually take them … nobody I know seriously considered it over Harvard or Yale. I’m not 100% sure why." Is this still happening in the post-2008 era?"</p>

<p>I will very cynically point out that some of the reason for this is a flaw in human psychology, not a well-reasoned choice. Here’s the situation: you’re 22 years old with an HLS acceptance in one hand and a Hamilton scholarship in the other. The pain of not going to HLS is felt immediately, and it’s easy for a 22-year-old to understand the drawbacks of not going to HLS. However, the pain from the HLS decision - i.e. those things BlueDevilMike talks about - are not really felt when you sign on the dotted line for loans. They are felt years down the road, and are poorly understood by people that age.</p>

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<p>As usual, bdm and ariesathena point out some very pertinent considerations about the wonderful choice your son is facing. </p>

<p>I presume that if your son would be on full student loans at HLS, that he would have to take some amount of private loans to finance his education. If so, please note that these loans are treated differently than Direct Loans with respect to federal and, to the best of my knowledge, university sponsored limited repayment/forgiveness plans for low income graduates. In addition, private loans may not be consolidated and spread over longer repayment periods and the deferral and forbearance periods differ as well.</p>

<p>If I was advising my children, having lived through a dreadfully long and arduous repayment period, my advice to my children would be to go to one of the best law schools in the country for free.</p>

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<p>It probably also has to do with family wealth. If the 'rents are willing the help out/bail out the young scion, then the decision is different. If the 'rents can cash in a few CDs which they forgot about years ago, the decision could be different. (But if I was the 'rent, I’d offer to give the kid the $250k in cash to start out in life.)</p>

<p>Alternatively, they could be extremely poor and then leverage Harvard’s need-based aid…</p>

<p>It would seem to me, however, that HYS is a no-brainer for someone who wants to gun for clerkships and academia (although Chicago does almost as well for academia as H). And as BDM pointed out, for those illusive ‘international law’ positions, H is the gold standard since pedigree matters a LOT more overseas.</p>

<p>That being said, for someone who wants to work domestically, a Ruby at Chicago is the no-brainer here (vs. sticker at H). (This is coming for a middle classer who will not/can not bail out the kids.)</p>

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<p>Thank you to those who replied today, including one PM, paraphrased below, with my comments after >>. Sorry, I cannot PM back, being a new member, CC ate my PM reply with a message saying “you do not qualify for sending PMs, because you have <15 posts”.</p>

<p>1) One concern is that these scholarships may perversely increase the pressure on recipients as they are expected to do well and may negatively affect their first job placement if they fail to meet that expectation. In contrast Yale does not utilize a grading curve and no longer provides class rank, and Harvard has relaxed its curve.</p>

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<p>2) I suspect that many of the award recipients come from families that either could pay or could obtain need-based grants. Thus, the scholarship may not be a major decision factor.
<< also stated by Bluebayou, probably true. Our situation is similar to Bluebayou’s.</p>

<p>3) I don’t actually know when HLS will award its aids. One could just forfeit the small deposit at a school. </p>

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<p>I will point out that if your son worked at big firms during the summers ($30K/summer), that would alleviate debt at HLS by quite a bit. At my law school, TAing undergraduate classes was paid very highly as well ($10K/semester). Of course, if he did that at Chicago, he’d then get to keep the money. </p>

<p>Obviously obtaining either type of position is not guaranteed, and some semesters maybe not even likely. Your son may not even be interested in big firm opportunities, since they may compromise his ability to pursue certain types of public interest jobs afterwards. But at my program, it would have been possible to earn as much as $100K through working. Again, to emphasize, this is (probably) not a difference between Harvard and Chicago, and so he’d just get to pocket that cash at Chicago.</p>

<p>Additionally, I went to a pass/fail program, so taking time away from studies to TA was extremely, extremely feasible. I can’t speak to whether students at Harvard and Chicago do that commonly.</p>

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<p>Do summer associates really earn $30k for one summer bdm?</p>

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<p>At big firms paying 160k per year that’s 3k per week. SAs are usually paid a prorated 1st year salary for their 10 weeks, so 30k.</p>

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<p>If you the parent don’t believe that you can afford to pay your son’s tuition, then your son will probably receive decent financial aid. There are many ways to estimate this in advance, and I think it’s important that you consider this factor before going into hypotheticals between the two schools. For example, you should consider the EFC on your son’s FAFSA, which is available now. If it is low, your son will probably get aid. I think there’s also a calculator online that uses similar metrics.</p>

<p>Incoming students from middle class backgrounds often qualify for significant financial aid, in which case HLS will look more appealing. On the other hand, if you can afford but don’t want to pay for your son’s law school tuition, then Chicago will look more appealing. </p>

<p>All else equal, there is a real difference between Harvard and Chicago, especially if your son doesn’t want Biglaw. For Biglaw the difference is negligible, but for clerkships, academia, DOJ, etc, Harvard trumps Chicago. However, there’s no good way to determine how much that difference is worth, and it’s definitely not worth 150k.</p>

<p>All of this is just my opinion. Congrats on your son’s accomplishments, and it is a luxury to have to make this decision. I am basically in the same position, and the above is how I have been thinking about the situation.</p>

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<p>RC, the problem is that most (almost all) of the aid will be in the form of loans. That’s (maybe) better than nothing (since otherwise you just wouldn’t get to go at all), but it’s the source of the problem we’re discussing.</p>

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<p>You are wrong on so many fronts. Financial aid for grad school (especially law/med school) is totally different than financial aid for undergrad. It is not unusual for a grad student who has not worked to have an 0 EFC on the FAFSA. This does not automatically translate to the student getting a lot of financial aid as schools that give need based aid will probably still ask for the parents income/assets through needs access. which looks at the parent’s whole financial picture. Also keep in mind that the student can borrow the full cost of attendance for law school (not that I am recommending that they do so).</p>

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<p>Uh, HYS makes you fill out the parental section of the FAFSA, which is optional otherwise (a little prompt comes up at the end). Once you complete this, the EFC is accurate. I just did this three days ago. </p>

<p>Also, blue, HYS (in contrast to other schools) gives out lots of grant money. I’m not saying that the aid will be 100% grants. But I don’t think that if you qualify for need-based aid, that HLS is going to give you all or mostly all loans. Do you have any numbers on how much of their aid is in the form of loans vs grants?</p>