@TallyMom2017, I agree, the German & Swiss apprenticeship system is terrific if you want to be a banker or software developer, etc.
I thought that the living expenses in that article seemed absurdly low. Maybe of you share a 80 sq. meter apartment with 3 other people and cook with cheap groceries all the time (though they do have Aldi).
@PurpleTitan: Living expenses depend a lot on the region. The example used in the article was Cottbus, I believe - I read it a few days ago on FB. This is a former East German industrial and mining city close to the Polish border. While I think that you get a better university education there, student life is a lot nicer in Heidelberg, Freiburg, Tuebingen or Munich. And, of course, the cost of living is a lot, lot higher. I’d say 1000 Euro minimum/month. As taxes are extremely high for German workers, even people who didn’t go to university or whose children don’t go, subsidize the rest. I’d say about 20 percent of German high school graduates go on to university. Oftentimes, even people with Abitur follow the trade route because it means immediate income and hands-on learning.
Also, due to the EU “butter mountains and milk lakes” food is generally subsidized. My usual grocery cost per week back home for one person is about 30 Euros/week for items that would cost me at least 100$/90 Euros here in the US. It’s not so much a question of Aldi vs. Edeka or big city vs. small village; food in general is a lot cheaper.
I think a few opinions here might change after reviewing the site for issues such as English, services, and amenities at TUM. http://www.tum.de/en/about-tum/our-university/
European universities are not full fledged residential schools but they answer to a different set of expectations from its targeted base of students. Some are located in large cities such as Munich, but others are located in towns where the school is the main “industry” with plenty of private services. One example is Leuven where KUL is just as famous as the small brewery that started in 1366 to become the biggest in the world. Of course, KUL was founded only in 1425.
Those schools are hardly community colleges.
I don’t know about others, but my opinion hasn’t changed. TUM is the equivalent of GTech. Well-respected powerhouse for engineering and other STEM (like GTech, doesn’t offer much besides STEM and business majors). Also a relatively big sink-or-swim public with lots of big lecture classes, lower spending-per-student than the private Ivies/equivalents (in fact, TUM spends less per student than GTech), and a fairly high attrition rate. Has a higher student-faculty ratio than GTech. Just as TUM is the best technical institute in Bayern as well as Germany, GTech is the best technical institute in GA as well as the Southeast.
I don’t see anything in that link that couldn’t be said about GTech.
Mind you, a GTech for virtually no tuition is certainly a bargain for the right type of student (the motivated self-disciplined type), but it’s also not a school where you can expect a lot of hand-holding or individualized attention.
However, TUM is also one of the better universities in Germany. Most would be more on the SUNY-level.
BTW, here’s what the TUM website doesn’t tell you (mind you, I wrote what I wrote before reading this reddit):
http://www.reddit.com/r/IWantOut/comments/2lzw7q/is_higher_education_in_germany_really_free_for/:
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[–]ultimomono 20 points 7 months ago*
I’m sure you know this, but free doesn’t mean that anyone can get in… Degree programs that are in demand require very high entrance exam scores. Perhaps in some cases foreigners can get around that, but then the boom will get lowered in class.
I studied almost for free in Spain and France and it was just as eplusi said. The “catch” in the European system is that there’s zero handholding, zero grade inflation, very difficult required classes that you can’t get out of (some of my classmates had to take the tough ones three or more times to pass) and a huge attrition rate. Here it’s all in Spanish. I would imagine that it is the same in most good German programs. I never met another American in my degree program (though there was one rogue Canadian).
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[–]eplusl 4 points 7 months ago
On the phone so I can’t do a proper quote. “zero handholding” - - this is important. When it’s free, there is no budget for extensive one-on-one counseling, no leeway with teachers. You can get a great education but the key word is “get”. You have to move your ass.
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[–]EbilSmurfs 2 points 7 months ago
Sounds like my college. 50% graduation rate, Common to repeat difficult classes, and the exchange students who came were not surprised at anything about our school. They said it was like going to school in Germany.
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Oh, and anyone looking for a cheap LAC should look at Mount Allison.
In-state prices. Stupendous number of Rhodes Scholars.
Virtually unknown in the States (but that’s true of many LACs anyway).
Students with chronic health conditions, especially type 1 diabetes, need to carefully check their potential health insurance situation before getting excited about studying abroad. My daughter was not able to attend a wonderful conservatory in the Netherlands for grad work, because she could not find adequate coverage (and in most cases was refused entirely by insurers) due to her type 1 diabetes. Interestingly, even Fulbright scholars are not insured properly for type 1 or other conditions that require ongoing care. Ditto many other grant and scholarship programs.
If it is a pre-existing condition, it isn’t insurance, it is a certain cost.
I studied at several European universities (not Germany though) and this it is my experience:
-Classes were big but not always. They were bigger in the beginning of the semester and lot less in the end of the semester when students lost interest. Classes that are “electives” can be really small. I had classes with only 10 students. I also had an elective that was independent study and it was just me and my adviser. Classes that were branded easy were empty since students just read the textbook to pass the class.
-Exams were very hard but you only needed 50% to pass the class. There were no multiple choice in anything. Usually there were 4 long questions with variety in difficulty. If a student had the basics he/she could answer 2 of them, maybe start the third. A good student could answer 3 of them and maybe start the 4th. A score of 85% was thought great.
-I had never have an issue approaching professors. Especially newer ones were very eager to meet students and make sure people will sign up to take the electives they taught 
In general I felt that the teachers were on the look out to find interesting students.
-I was recruited several times to do undergrad research and I was NOT an exceptional student. It was not hard at all. The universities were big but somehow not all students were interested in that stuff. The grand majority of the kids just wanted to get a degree.
S will be spending his junior year at the Technical University of Berlin. He’s studying mechanical engineering. He is attending through is US university exchange program and thus will continue paying his US tuition. Thought I’d give a bit of perspective.
First off, Berlin has about 140,000 students. The Studentenwerk and similar non-profits which manage dorms/student housing represent about 10,500 units. So, dorms are very hard to come by. Dorms tend to on the outskirts of town. A 40 minute commute to the University is considered ‘close in’ by German standards.
This means heading out into the WG market which requires some German speaking and reading ability. The costs given in the article are just silly. A WG room with ‘kalte meite’ might be advertised at 300 Euro but the ‘warme meite’ which adds on minor things like utilities, Wi-Fi a place to park you bike (yes bike, not auto) will easily bring this to 425 Euro. That’s if you want to live in a reasonable part of town. If you don’t mind stepping over a few drunks when coming home from class late at night, well you can get that cost down somewhat. Also, WG’s are often not furnished so now the student will need to purchase the basics of life like a bed, desk, chair etc. In their freshman year.
Most kids have an adjustment period freshman year. That’s why most US universities insist freshman live on campus. This is so they will be able to do simple things like eat, laundry, get to class, and continue with dorm based orientations and socialization. It’s been shown that this type of introduction and hand holding during the first year increases retention and success. (Yes, we helicopter our kids way more than most Germans can imagine).
None of this happens in Germany. If you get a dorm that’s 40 minutes from campus you can’t just ‘dash in for a quick lunch’. If you rent your own room then you’d better figure out the logistics of running your life ASAP. Something many a US high school graduate might have a bit of a difficult time doing 3 months after graduation!
If the student is pursuing a US accredited degree, such as engineering, German course work might not be accepted in the US. S will be taking a few non-engineering courses. These need to be taken at the Berlin Humbolt University, since the TU is just that – a TECHNICAL institution. These GE courses needed to be approved by ABET. He had to provide documentation as to the syllabus and specific course work (no “Schiller for Soccer Players” courses accepted). He had to give documentation as to the length and number of essays a particular GE course would require.
As someone else had mentioned, the German school system gets all the GE’s out of the way in high school (Gymnasium) so the University study program is almost completely restricted to the major.
I have one relative who failed engineering math in freshman year at a German university. There really aren’t many second chances. He left the program and went to a more trade oriented school.
S was independent, self sufficient and capable beyond his chronological age in HS. He speaks and reads fluent German and we have family support in the country. I wouldn’t have considered sending him freshman year to start his college life without at least some of the support structures we have taken for granted.
Be sure to really really look at what is involved.
Delete … wrong user account!
Sounds like a big American state school with less hand-holding, flexibility, and athletics (and with less spending per student than even most flagships, likely less services as well).
@xiggi, since you were extolling the virtues and prestige of TUM, I fully expect you to start extolling the virtues and prestige of GTech/UMich/Cal/UCLA/UW-Madison as well. After all, what does TUM have that those American publics don’t have?
PurpleTitan, all of the above is fine. My posts never intimated that TUM or other European universities offer a better option than schools such as GTECH and its peers. They offer a different option that might be attractive to a family that is too rich to qualify for most aid or scholarships but too poor to not have to care about. There are majors that work better than others. The linked story was about TUM and Physics. That seems to work. It might not work for someone interested in a different major. This said, I had an interest in Rhetoric, I might look forward to spending some time at the ULB Brussels – not an immediate choice on these shores.
To be clear, despite holding a E-passport and access to most European universities at a discount, I did not pursue any of the options as a registered student for the UG as there was no financial incentives in MY case. Others might look at it differently. Many have heard about schools such as St Andrews as they present options to students who did not get the sought-after US fat envelopes. Missing HYPS -or being rescinded for plagiarism at H- and landing a spot at the Royal Kate’s university carries prestige.
There are different paths to the top of the mountain, and some did well by following the advice of the Great Amherst poet.
PS A recent graduating class of civil engineers at the KULeuven I mentioned above heard the following message for a well-known dredging company. “The good news? We are making an offer to everyone of you. The bad news? Every job we offer is abroad. Congratulations!” Most students had multiple job offers. Anecdotal as it is it would be a mistake to think that there is no recruiting nor advising at those schools. I am also quite certain that the freshmen class was many times smaller than the graduating class. And perhaps that is an angle we ought to reconsider (and abandon the pronation to graduating percentages in certain majors.)
Also take a look at the MBA schools and Europe and see how they fare in recruiting and salaries.
@xiggi, pretty much all of the top MBAs in Europe would cost money. LBS and INSEAD are not cheaper than American counterparts (though INSEAD is shorter).
Agree that there are potentially good cheap opportunities abroad for the right kind of kid.
I’d peg St. Andrews as equivalent to W&M. At 17K or so sterling, you could argue that it could be a good deal, however.
^^ PurpleTitan, are you deliberately being dense? Did I not mention before? Could one consider costs, the potential benefit of a directed major, the three years bachelor’s degree, the experience, the foreign languages, a more global view of the world, and a few more.
Do not think that I am missing the implications of your posts, but this is not a discussion about privates versus state university, a Stanford vs Cal, or a LAC vs Brown or Dartmouth. You do know that I attended a LAC that is long on amenities and what some like to consider babysitting, hand holding, or chaperoning. Before making my final choice, I was looking forward to attend my local PUBLIC flagship as I loved the school (still do minus its football coach) but that does not mean that I would have packed my bags to attend any of the schools you listed.
It’s all about personal choices. Isn’t that the way it works? Some make “weird” choices. A kid I grew up with attended no fewer than 6 universities ranging from Israel, Lithuania, France, Germany and China, before finally obtaining a PhD in the US. His total expenses were below what one year at my school(s) amounted to. I would NOT have done it, but it worked for him.
The top MBA programs do indeed cost money – a lot of money. Some think that the ROI is better at the ones you mentioned or at the Spanish ones.
There’s one more issue. If you are an American and plan to come back to the US, it can be hard to get a job. In lots of fields now, it’s almost necessary to do some internships or a summer job. The vacations at the German schools don’t match up with the internship programs or summer jobs in the US. I don’t know about Germany, but some EU countries have strict limits on how much foreign students can work. I’m not suggesting working to make money; I’m just saying that if you go to an EU school, it can be hard to work out internships and summer jobs in either the US or the EU country. And getting a job after graduation without work experience is becoming increasingly difficult in the US.
Before prices went up, one of my neighbors, now in her mid 30s, got a degree from the U of East Anglia. In certain fields–and hers was one–it’s among the best universities in the world. But when she came back to the US, she had a very difficult time getting a good job. There’s no on-campus recruiting for US companies, no alumni network, etc. She ended up giving up and returning to the UK, where she immediately landed a good job.
I know it’s a sample of one, but still…it’s something to think about.
Huh? I think I know of “the Great Amherst poet,” but what advice are you talking about?
@jonri, actually, in my (limited, granted) personal experience, it appears it can be EASIER for Americans who studied abroad to find jobs in the US. That exotic degree automatically set these young people apart. Internships are common in Europe, and these grads had job experience before they left schools - it was required for their degree.Plus, these internships are often for international companies known and recognized in the US. I know four Americans who studied overseas - two in Maastricht, one in Israel, one in France - and none reported having problems finding jobs. All say employers were impressed by the out-of-the-box thinking and willingness to take on risk and face tough situations: qualities they admired.
JHS – Here you go! Inasmuch as I like The Wall better, this is the one to which I was making an oblique reference after using the words different paths to the top of the mountain:
Robert Frost
TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;
Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,
And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
My son has an internship at a large German auto company before he starts his year at BTU. There internship programs are again very different from ours. His paperwork asked whether this was a mandatory or ‘of free will’ internship. Huh? Still not clear on what that meant.
Proving his enrollment status in the US institution also required special handling since, again, the systems are very different. He also will need a work Visa which has several hoops of it’s own through which one must jump.
A while ago there was a very interesting discussion on BBC radio. A German professor detailed the differences in the two university systems. First off, the German
system does not integrate with their businesses nearly in the same fashion that ours do. So much of US based university research is corporate sponsored, this is not the case in Germany. So while research opportunities exist they are again much more limited. It also limits introductions to these companies and their industries via the universities.
Beware of the ‘research opportunities’. S is currently working in a lab at his large US research institution. He’s doing repairs on multi million dollar equipment and generally keeping the mechanics going. IMO this is not ‘research’.