<p>^ the OP thinks her parents would be paying a ton of money. That does not mean they will; some people don’t bother applying for aid because they assume they won’t get it, only to find out that once they do, the university is very generous with them. Stanford’s financial aid extends to families making up to $200k. It’s very possible that the OP’s family makes more than that, but the price tag really shouldn’t be a deterrent for applying to a (dream) school, especially given that financial aid is extremely complex and difficult to estimate without going through the process (the CSS profile is a nightmare for a reason).</p>
<p>I’m surprised that Stanford doesn’t offer a film major as they have many film-related summer classes on campus.
My dad graduated from there and he is very big on filming, which ended up helping him get in.</p>
<p>I live very close to Stanford and it is a gorgeous school. The education is fantastic and the people are wonderful. My dad loved Stanford so much that he moved us all back here. He went to Harvard for grad school and it just wasn’t the same. I’m sure you’d enjoy Stanford; everything about it is perfect, even the weather.</p>
<p>The OP is also an international student. International students, unless they are very needy, tend to get the short end of the stick with financial aid… top universities prefer to give financial aid to US residents before giving aid to international students. Most likely, unless the OP is a US citizen living abroad, he will not get great financial aid. However, it doesn’t hurt to apply for financial aid. Some universities are not need-blind for international students, so it will be important to see if Stanford and Amherst are need-blind for international students.</p>
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<p>Not really. I mean, you can’t get an exact number, but you can get a pretty close estimate. Ultimately there’s a mathematical logic that drives the ratio.</p>
<p>Look, suppose every student took exactly 4 classes per semester, exactly half of which were large classes and exactly half of which were small classes. Then you’d have exactly as many student registrations in small classes as in large classes, right? But it would take far more small classes to achieve that result, because by definition every class in the 50-99 student category would have more than 2.5 times as many students registered in it as every class in the 2-19 range—and some much more than that. Follow me? And every class in the 100+ category would have at least 5 times as many students in it as every class in the 2-19 category—some much more. So bottom line, just to have parity in student enrollments between small and large classes, you need to far more small classes.</p>
<p>But of course, everyone doesn’t take exactly 4 classes per semester; some take more, some take less, and they take them in different mixes of large and small classes. But that doesn’t matter. If on average students are taking exactly as many small classes as large classes, there still need to be far more small classes than large classes. And that’s true whether the average number of classes per semester is 4, or 4.5, or 5. Follow me so far?</p>
<p>But we can work that logic in the other direction, too. If we know how many classes there are in various size categories (which we know from Stanford’s CDS), and if we make reasonable assumptions about the number of students registered ON AVERAGE in that size category, we can estimate the ratio of students in small classes to students in large classes. I think xiggi agrees with me on this. Where we differ is in what we think are reasonable estimates for the different size categories. I initially chose the midpoint in each size range (e.g., an average of 15 students for classes in the 10-19 range) whereas xiggi wants to push that estimate toward the high end of the range for the smaller classes. And I initially chose 75 as the average size for classes in the 50-99 student range, where xiggi I presume would choose some number closer to 50. </p>
<p>I can’t prove my estimates more accurate, of course. But I don’t need to. Even if you use xiggi’s estimates, you’ll see that that students at Stanford spend about as much time in large classes (50+) as in small ones (<20). And this runs contrary to the prevailinng mythology that one of the benefits of elite private universities is that you’ll spend most of your time in small classes. It just ain’t so; at least, not on average, and not in the aggregate, though certainly there will be individual instances where that’s true. </p>
<p>My point is, if you want small classes, choose a good LAC. Because at most major research universities, you’re likely to end up spending a LOT of time in large classes.</p>
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<p>Even better, go to the schools’ on-line schedules of classes to see what the class sizes are in courses that you are likely to take if that is important to you.</p>
<p>Major also matters. In a large school, choosing a popular major like biology often means being in 500 student freshman and sophomore chemistry and biology lectures, and even junior and senior level courses will be large. But a math major who enters already advanced in math and ready to take honor sophomore level math as a freshman, followed by junior through graduate level math later, may find all small classes in his/her major at the same school.</p>
<p>“could you point out some of the differences between such LACs and places like USC/Stanford? anything that would be valuable info”</p>
<p>For one, size: LACs are smaller in campus size and number of students. A small school can feel familiar/cozy or incestuous/stifling. A big school can feel exciting/diverse or overwhelming/uncaring. It all depends on your perspective and personal experiences, but there are people who simply prefer the big vs. small. Amherst in particular has the reputation of being very intellectual, while USC is traditionally associated with the film school and big time sports. It’s an excellent school as well, but hasn’t had the reputation for academic excellence nearly as long as Amherst or Stanford. LACs tend to be more focused on undergraduates; the big research universities - USC and Stanford
included - focus a great deal of their attention on graduate programs. You are less likely to get a class taught by a TA at an LAC, where easy access to professors is one of the key selling points. There is also the obvious difference in culture/weather: USC and Stanford are in California, which by nature tends to be less formal and more outdoorsy. People can wear shorts almost 10 months of the year in both places. Which reminds me of what a professor once said, when asked about the difference between Stanford students and Harvard students. He had taught at both places. He said Harvard students were more nakedly ambitious, Stanford students just more naked ;)</p>
<p>erica, very difficult to answer as Amherst and Stanford are extremely different. It’s hard to imagine that they would be tied for 1st place. What was it that led you to narrow your choice to these two in the first place? </p>
<p>Amherst is not really in the middle of nowhere. It’s a lively small town with a large number of college students. Stanford is more suburban than urban. It’s somewhat closer to San Francisco than Amherst is to Boston or New York, but not significantly.</p>
<p>Would it be possible for you to visit these two and a few others before you commit to ED or REA? The test I always use is to ask yourself, “If I apply RD to college X and don’t get in, I’ll always wish I had applied ED/REA.” </p>
<p>I might suggest that you also look at Swarthmore, Pomona, Brown and Columbia.</p>
<p>For what it’s worth: including Stanford’s 200+ introductory seminars changes the class registration figure drastically. As I said before, since Stanford’s introsems are administered by the VPUE and not the registrar, the CDS doesn’t include them; it says ~68% of Stanford’s classes have fewer than 20 students, but including the introsems brings that to ~75%, which matches the number that Stanford’s literature says. Since introsems are capped at 15-16, that makes another few thousand student-registrations, and so counting those means that the student body, on the whole, spends ~25% (depending on the seminar offerings) more time in large classes than in small ones.</p>
<p>But again, looking at the student body as a whole isn’t nearly as useful as looking at what the average student experience is, and to calculate that we’d need additional measures like average # classes per student, etc.</p>
<p>What are your stats, OP? Do you have a reasonable chance of admission to these schools? What other schools are on your list , especially ones that offer the majors you are interested in?</p>
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<p>BCK, I just looked at my “model” and the numbers I used were</p>
<h2>520, 541, 116, 85, 54, 116, 75</h2>
<p>–9, --15, -25, 35, 45, -75, 200.</p>
<p>I think that the smaller classes such as 1-20 are usually close to capacity. </p>
<p>HTH</p>
<p>These two schools are so fundamentally different that I can’t believe that a decision between the two would really come down to the class size issue.
Most students would count themselves lucky just to get accepted by either school.</p>
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<p>Hmmm . . . using those figures, I get:</p>
<p>Small classes:
2-9 students: 520 classes X 9 students/class ave = 4,680 registrations
10-19 students: 541 classes X 15 students/class = 8,115 registrations
Subtotal: 12,795 registrations in small (<20) classes</p>
<p>Large classes:
60-99 students: 116 classes X 75 students/class = 8,700 registrations
100+ students: 75 classes X 200 students/class = 15,000 registrations
Subtotal: 23,700 registrations in large (50+) classes</p>
<p>That’s nearly twice as many registrations in larger as in small classes. Or, averaging the total over the entire student body, students taking on average nearly twice as many large as small classes.</p>
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<p>So you’re saying Stanford has 200+ classes of <20 students it’s not including its CDS? I’m not in a position to dispute it, but if true it would seem to suggest breathtaking incompetence on the part of the Stanford administration, since the percentage of small classes counts so heavily in the US News ranking: 30% of the “faculty resources” category, which in turn counts for 20% of then entire ranking, so 6% of the total. Why would they shoot themselves in the foot by underreporting their percentage of small classes?</p>
<p>But if we use xiggi’s estimates of the average number of students in each size category, it does affect things, but it doesn’t change my bottom line conclusion. Then we get:</p>
<p>Small classes:
2-9 students: 520 classes X 9 students/class ave = 4,680 registrations
10-19 students: 761 classes (541 + 220) X 15 students/class = 11,415 registrations
Subtotal: 16,095 registrations in small (<20) classes</p>
<p>Large classes:
60-99 students: 116 classes X 75 students/class = 8,700 registrations
100+ students: 75 classes X 200 students/class = 15,000 registrations
Subtotal: 23,700 registrations in large (50+) classes</p>
<p>No longer approaching 2-to-1 large-to-small class registrations, but still roughly 50% more large than small.</p>
<p>I know about the introsems for reasons I won’t disclose publicly (for anonymity). Not including the introsems is not incompetence on Stanford’s part, in any case, since the 75% figure is what Stanford puts in all its literature that it sends to students - which is what matters. Stanford doesn’t care about US News rankings (in fact, the president has criticized the rankings and called for other universities to stop filling out the US News data survey), and in the end a 6-7% difference wouldn’t have a meaningful impact anyway.</p>
<p>I don’t know the exact distribution, but just from my experience with large classes, 200 is probably a gross overestimate; only 2% have more than 120, and it’s very rare that you come across a class that’s larger than 200. There are some large intro classes that I can think of - CS 106A or Econ 1A, but they’re very much the exception rather than the norm for 100+ size classes.</p>
<p>annasdad: my parents are willing to pay a quarter of a million (if that’s what it takes) for the pretige of the college because that’s the only thing they can count on. that’s the only thing that will get me a job when i graduate and return to Korea. i don’t want to live forever in the states, but i don’t want to get a college education in Korea when i could get one of the best in the world by attending a college like Stanford or Amherst. colleges in Korea no matter how great just don’t compute. to foreigners like my parents, and foreigners like the people in my home country who’d be looking at me to hire me after graduation, the ****ing name is what matters. do you think i like it? do you think i like having to study my ass off to get into a pretigious school because i can’t stand the thought of studying in a backward education system like the one in korea? my parents will be paying precisely for the name of the college. if they pay much less for a college just as good that is less famous, that money and four years of studying will all go to waste anyway because no one is willing to hire a kid from a foreign college that doesn’t have a name. please, for the love of god, please don’t go calling people foolish when you don’t even understand half of it.</p>
<p>How do your parents feel about other schools like Dartmouth, Duke or Penn? If you’re considering schools as different as Amherst or Stanford, then you might as well throw every other elite school out there into the mix.</p>
<p>my list:
for early: Stanford or Amherst
Williams
Brown
Columbia
UPenn
NYU
considering USC and U of Chicago for my majors</p>
<p>this thread is already old, don’t know if anybody else wants to read it, but here’re my stats:</p>
<p>School: english-based international school in germany</p>
<p>Rank: 4/128 (there are some big time over acheivers here. but all the top 3s are applying to Oxbridge)</p>
<p>GPA: 7.00 with the IB scale. IB Full Diploma Candidate. High Honors all through 10th & 11th
(classes (11th & 12th):
IB English A1 Higher Level
IB Physics Higher Level
IB History Higher Level (European option)
IB Art Standard Level
IB Math Standard Level
IB German ab initio (SL)
Theory of Knowlege</p>
<p>EC:
editor-in-chief of school newspaper
correspondent for an student-run, student-financed magazine
The Hague International Model United Nations
Royal Russell Model United Nations
Student Libaray Advisory
Kalahari Education Experience (service program, we go to the Kalahari desert in africa)
Varsity Tennis</p>
<p>standardized tests:
TOEFL: 113 on iBT when i took it in 8th grade. that score’s expired now so i have to take it again.
SAT: 2090 when i took it for the first time in june. with how much i’m studying for it now i expect at least around 2250 in october.
haven’t taken any subject tests. plan to take physics, world history and literature in november for the RDs. of course, studying like a true asian for them. </p>
<p>my counselor says that i do have a “reasonable chance” of getting in, but i feel somewhat skeptical because my counselor’s fairly young and i can’t deny that i’m not extremely confident. i intend to get the best grades possible, aiming for all 7s, for the first semester of my senior year. been working on my application essay for almost a month now, pretty pleased with what i’ve got, it’s a personal essay about being raised by my grandparents who were nice to me but hated each other (both my parents worked), that sort of thing. i can expect good letters of recommendation from my German teacher who was also my Theory of Knowledge teacher this year, and a good one from my art teacher too. they’re both american and understand the common application process betther than british/german/other european teachers. i’d ask my english teacher since she teaches the subject closest to my majors but she’s the really fair but harsh type, who will say all the good things but also won’t water down any bad things she sees. still pondering whether she’s a good choice to ask a letter from, maybe some colleges like a bit of honest criticism instead of all bubbly enthusiastic stuff… and also getting a short paragraph from the advisor of the school paper that my counselor promised to get into her letter somehow.</p>
<p>katliamom: lol that last bit made me laugh… i guess from all the replies the first thing i need to do is really figure out what type of college i want to be in for four whole years… i just have had an interest in both Amherst and Stanford for a long time, no particular reason for being picky with either but i haven’t realized exactly how much different they are.</p>
<p>*my counselor pointed out that problem as well, my being a foreign student. no, i don’t have a US citizenship. i know Amherst has a need-blind policy for international students, but i don’t know about Stanford. my parents make a reasonable amount of money, but i do have two younger sisters plus my mother’s been taking a three year sabbatical from her law firm (my father being stationed here in Germany and all) and the minus in income may help with financial aid. my counselor said too that everything just depends on calculating the numbers and submitting requests and forms. she says there’s no sense in just dropping the idea of financial aid just because i’m a foreign student, but that i do have to lower my expectation from the start, i probably won’t get a lot even if i get some.</p>
<p>aerobug: thanks for the reply:) good to hear Staford’s such a pleasant school.
momrath: thank you. it won’t be possible for me to visit any of the colleges on my list, though i’d love to:P</p>
<p>And just as a note: please do consider taking the time now to shorten your list. I was told to apply and see what happens, and ended up having an extremely stressful time deciding because I got into all of the ones I loved. So do take the time now to prioritize and visit the schools you love, because if you are indecisive now, it won’t go away! best of luck deciding :)</p>