Help! Brown vs. Swarthmore vs. Vassar

College Search & Selection
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<p>I disagree. OP, if you ultimately prefer Vassar, go there happily and do not for one second believe that it will put you at some sort of generic disadvantage. Brown and Swarthmore are great schools too but guarantee nothing. Go where you will be happiest and most productive.</p>

<p>FWIW, as an academic, I would never assume that a graduate of Brown or Swarthmore is automatically smarter or more capable than a Vassar graduate. Personally I am dubious about all this hairsplitting about prestige at the level of schools you’re considering. It’s silly.</p>

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<p>FWIW, I have a D who is just finishing her first year at Vassar. She has a 10 week paid internship in her major lined up for the summer, that she got through the college. Her current roommate is a gifted opera singer from nowhere Georgia, her roommate next year is a multi-racial, first generation college kid, her new boyfriend was homeschooled, her study buddy in French is an Iraq war vet, and the two LAX bros in the room next door are really nice guys. Although Vassar is not as diverse as her high school was, it is definitely not the homogenous place it was in my day. </p>

<p>Like the OP my D had some great choices, and I thought that the bigger name school that gave her a whizzy merit scholarship would succeed in wooing her- but the fit at Vassar was just right and she is thriving. The poster who said that ‘where you are happy is the best place for you’ is dead on. </p>

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<p>“Pamona may not currently be as “safe” a choice, but the risk of it not having a stellar (and equivalent) reputation over the medium to long term is IMO very low.”</p>

<p>I wouldn’t trust the opinion of someone who can’t even spell the name of the institution right. This person seems obsessed about the differences between the top 3, top 5, and top 10 liberal arts colleges. My experience is that any elite liberal arts college will provide you the opportunity to attend an elite graduate school, win a competitive fellowship, or work with some of the strongest employers in the country. There are reasons beyond the institution as to why Williams students might earn more money on PayScale than Vassar students (who are more involved with social justice and non-profit, which pay less). The three schools aren’t the gold standard for every single metric. Colgate does better on Payscale than ASP, Pomona does better in Fulbrights and Goldwaters than ASW, more PhDs are produced through Reed and Harvey Mudd than PAW. </p>

<p>There is absolutely no risk of going to Pomona compared to going to Williams/Amherst/Swarthmore- their grads are represented at all of the top graduate programs. For this thread- Vassar students might not do as well in grad school or fellowship placement, but again- it is much more likely to be a student thing than an institutional one. If you want to go to the best places, Vassar’s name will do you well. </p>

<p>You do want to find a place, however, where you can thrive. The institutional name doesn’t matter nearly to (virtually) any extent- if you get good grades, pursue relevant extracurriculars, and build your network well, any elite LAC will serve its purpose well. If you think you can thrive at Vassar more than you can at Brown or Swarthmore, go there!</p>

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<p>@NJSue, </p>

<p>If you look at Michael Dell, Steve Jobs, Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg you would conclude that you can go to a state flagship, small LAC in Oregon or a top Ivy, drop out and become one of the worlds richest men. There are also plenty of graduates of the Harvard Business School who have had unsuccessful careers. This is not about the outliers, but about the centers of the bell curves. </p>

<p>Unequivocally, to open doors to certain careers the reputation of the school makes a substantial difference and only a small number of elite schools make the cut. If the OP has the opportunity to make the cut, you are misleading her to suggest that this is splitting hairs. While many high school seniors think they know what they want to do, the reality is a substantial percentage change their mind while in college. Why encourage students to preclude certain career paths before they really know what they want to do with their only life when it isn’t necessary? </p>

<p>Furthermore, for most, the era of a single career for life has become a relic. In the new era of ongoing personal and corporate reinvention (with rapid downsizing and upsizing of institutions (of all types) to match product, market and economic cycles) employers are looking for a basis on which to rapidly screen out those who they don’t want to interview (the numbers of applicants are simply too great). Within this post 2008 phenomenon the SAT scores that had been discarded long ago are increasingly being requested of prospective employees of every age and the educational institution attended is being used as a proxy for evaluating intelligence and potential. Again, if it isn’t necessary, why recommend the OP bound herself with unnecessary potential constraints? </p>

<p>I am not arguing the merits or justice of what is outlined above, only that it is the new reality and it is only going to intensify. Unless there is a strong fit preference or finances preclude it, the wise decision is to attend the school that will provide access to the best opportunities, and that, generally speaking, is the one with the strongest reputation. </p>

<p>Of course, we can all go and naively bury our heads in the sand and pretend otherwise - it is only the OP that will pay the price. Perhaps, like those who are defending the indefensible, by following your advice she may place herself in the position of never knowing what opportunities she has missed. </p>

<p>Nostalgicwisdom, I am glad to know that in your perfection you have never made a spelling error. </p>

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<p>@am61517, What is this “cut” you speak of? You describe the world as if there are groups of wizened little men sitting in rooms deciding people’s destinies on the basis of their SAT scores and the USNWR rankings of their colleges. If that is truly the case (and I don’t think it is), then our economy and way of life are already finished and the student might as well follow his her/bliss before going to live under the bridge like the rest of us. Even the masters of the universe won’t be safe from the revolution (to be full-blown hyperbolic about it). Your world view is excessively bleak and, if true, the choice among three outstanding colleges really doesn’t matter for the OP or anyone else, because we’ll all have much bigger problems.</p>

<p>It’s true that “certain careers” (investment banking) favor certain schools, but the OP didn’t mention that as a possible career choice. “Reputation” and “opportunities” for an individual student vary. Students should know themselves. </p>

<p>I think it’s important for students to know that attending any college does not guarantee anything. I know of unemployed and drifting Brown and Swarthmore graduates. It’s a mistake to overestimate the effect of prestige on one’s future prospects.</p>

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<p>@NJSue, I couldn’t agree more with your point that attending a given school guarantees nothing. My key point is that if you have the opportunity, all else being equal, to avail yourself of an advantage that will remain with you throughout your life you should. For many careers, and perhaps even most careers, where the OP goes to school will make no difference (if you assume it is only the name that is different and the actual training is not differentiated), there are some where it will make a difference which is surmountable, and there are some where the difference will be extraordinarily difficult to surmount. I am only suggesting that, given that the OP may change her career aspirations, as many (if not most) students do, it may not be a good idea this early in her life to close off potential alternatives. If the fit preference is strong for one school and it will be a painful four years to attend another, I am not suggesting she shouldn’t choose the one for which she has a preference. She simply needs to be aware of the implications and made the choice judiciously. </p>

<p>With regard to your first point, what is being rewarded in the global economy is intellectual capital. The growing inequality in the US is based on the rest of the world taking the jobs of the less skilled in the US, and not necessarily the mercenary nature of the business, technocratic and even academic elite in the US (although I won’t argue that there isn’t a level of ethical corruption). What I am suggesting is that being as far as possible up the ladder of having developed your intellectual capital is what will protect you from being disintermediated by either increasingly skilled developing world workforces willing to do the same work for less or by technology. </p>

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<p>“Unequivocally, to open doors to certain careers the reputation of the school makes a substantial difference and only a small number of elite schools make the cut.”</p>

<p>All of the schools that OP is applying to are among these elite schools you speak of. All of them. I understand your point, but not in the case of an institution ranked 3 among LACs vs an institution named 10th. If this were a school ranked in the top 10 vs. the top 50, I might better understand where you’re coming from, but it’s not. Vassar, Swarthmore, and Brown all have the name brand and reputation to get their graduates to the best places; it depends on the student, however, to make use of that.</p>

<p>Unless you can more clearly demonstrate what WAS do compared to schools like Pomona or Vassar which might present a difference in opportunity, I’m not really seeing your point. Numbers have contexts to them, so context would be appreciated. </p>

<p>I also know from my own research, that, at least for Pomona, the institution is considered extremely high with graduate programs. I am certain that Vassar is too. The top grad schools come to recruit here, and they have said that Pomona students are among their strongest candidates and that they’re enthusiastic to get more Pomona students. I find it strange that your experience with graduate programs and such would create these questionable barriers between liberal art colleges (it’s very easy for me to justify with objective numbers, for instance, why Pomona is a better school in a variety of metrics than SAW) instead of appreciating all of them for the students and opportunities they bring in enhancing academia. If anything, that suggests a need to adapt your own focus. </p>

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<p>@nostalgicwisdom, as I said in an earlier post, I personally don’t see a substantial difference between the resources, educational quality and prospective reputations of Pomona (I will forever remember the correct spelling) and SAW. There is a sufficiently greater difference between SAW and Vassar. One simple aspect that is reflective of the difference is the resources the schools apply to all aspects of the educational experience. Please take a look at the following link which indicates the substantial difference (3 to 1) in the endowment per student and resources available from the endowment per student per year. </p>

<p><a href=“Thoughts on Education Policy: Endowments of Top 25 Liberal Arts Colleges”>http://www.edpolicythoughts.com/2012/01/endowments-of-top-25-liberal-arts.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>It is important to note that over the long term there tends to be is a strong correlation between endowment per student and reputation for both LACs and Universities. I say this recognising that reputation and endowment per student are mutually reinforcing and which came first differs by institution. </p>

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<p>I was wondering when am61517 would resort to this argument. Since he can’t prove that the gulf in prestige between two well-regarded liberal arts colleges is so extreme that graduates of one will wind up on the ash heap of history (at least his liberal arts education has given him a flair for the dramatic), he (or she) must change the conversation to “resources”. Go ahead. What are these vaunted resources Swarthmore has that Vassar doesn’t?</p>

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<p>@circuitrider, you really don’t see and appreciate the fact that causal factors drive future events, and that endowment per capita is a fundamentally critical causal factor?</p>

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<p>If anything, the list you provided demonstrates that there -are- differences between endowment and reputation. One interesting case is Sarah Lawrence, which has a tiny endowment of under 70 million dollars, yet managed (when still ranked by the USnews) to remain within the top 50 for its entire existence. Certainly was never in the top 10 or so, but nonetheless managed to compete with schools in the 40s that had substantially larger endowment’s per student. I don’t think its endowment ever exceeded 100 million dollars. If you think its reputation is lagging now, you can check out the HS counselor rankings (It’s not on the official list, but if it was, it would be ranked 28 or so.)</p>

<p>Wesleyan is another case-in-point: a school with a smaller endowment (per student) that nonetheless is extremely prestigious. </p>

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<p>@Guest15, everything you say is accurate and you have done an excellent job of pointing out outliers. Ironically, the five universities with the highest endowment per student are HYPSM and four of the five LACs with the highest endowment per student are SAWP. </p>

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<p>I find the idea that attending Vassar would not develop someone’s “intellectual capital” completely absurd. These arguments about endowments are like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. All of these schools mentioned on this thread are great schools that offer wonderful opportunities for their students. </p>

<p>Again, if it get to the point that only the 30,000 or so annual graduates of certain schools (Ivy plus AWS) in a nation of 300 million plus are going to get any meaningful opportunity, then we are already down the tubes and this website should be shut down.</p>

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<p>I don’t want to inject myself in the middle of this debate, but thought I might add some thoughts on the graduate school reputation issue. When it comes to graduate schools, it will be far more important how strong the departments are than what the prestige or USNWR ranking of the schools are. Graduate adcoms are smart enough to know whether the Brown Biology department is better than Swarthmore’s or whether Swat has a better English department than Vassar. And they even know about subspecialities within the departments, e.g. whether Victorian or Modern lit is where the department is strong. In this regard, if the OP is interested in sciences, I think it will be far more crucial to know how strong the departments are at Vassar and Swarthmore because Brown is going to be a bit stronger with its resources and funding for research. Humanities maybe there is a less of a difference between the 3. </p>

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<p>And how exactly is one supposed to determine that? Rankings and perceptions are subjective. </p>

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<p>@nostalgicwisdom‌ </p>

<p>One very easy thing to look at is the Ph.d’s of the faculty set against the rankings of the graduate institutions where they came from. Sometimes they come from low-ranking programs, and in that case you can usually just read a profile - at a strong institution, most of those teachers from low-ranking graduate programs are either…</p>

<p>A) Absolutely fantastic teachers</p>

<p>or </p>

<p>B) Academically accomplished in other respects - i.e, well-published or well-regarded in their field. </p>

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<p>Hi Aquarian, how you doing? Don’t blame you for abandoning this thread. Start another one if you want, we can talk about you!</p>

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<p>Here’s what I see and appreciate: That people don’t choose a college based on its endowment per student… Thanks, to the “high tuition/high financial aid” business model perfected by schools like Swarthmore, middle-class families are forced to pick the school that offers them the most generous tuition discount. That college or university may or may not be at the top of the USNews ranking. </p>

<p>Do the math; it’s not going to matter to the vast majority of applicants. First-gen students and students from poor families are going to get a strong bang for the buck no matter what top college or university they go to - studies show this. OTOH, families that can afford to pay full freight already have plenty of business and social connections of their own. In fact, they are much more likely to be net importers of prestige. Call it the “celebrity parent” factor.</p>

<p>That leaves approximately 30% of the remaining available admissions slots to people who fall somewhere in the middle in terms of income and status. These people don’t care about endowment per student. They care about getting the best deal. </p>

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<p>Greetings AquarianExpo!</p>

<p>Partly because I want to try out my new mechanical keyboard and partly because I have nothing else to do, I will give my thoughts on your post. </p>

<p>For the record, I applied and was accepted to all three of these schools, but I will be attending elsewhere. To start, I would like to say that Brown, Vassar, and Swarthmore are all top notch schools. Though saying “you can’t go wrong” sounds hackneyed, it really is the case. I have visited all three of these schools, and I would like to think that I have a pretty good understanding of each seeing as how I have read so much about them and talked with current students. </p>

<p>Right, so if you are interested in studying English at any one of these fine institutions here is how I would rank them: in terms of quality and rigor of their academics:

  1. Swarthmore
  2. Vassar
  3. Brown</p>

<p>However, the difference in academic quality is negligible at best. In all likelihood, it will vary by department. </p>

<p>In terms of prestige here is how I would rank them:

  1. Brown
  2. Vassar
  3. Swarthmore</p>

<h2>In my area (a wealthy suburb in NJ), everyone has heard of Brown, most have heard of Vassar, and some have heard of Swarthmore. However, if you ever find yourself in a backwoods area of Alabama you can rest assured that most people you meet will have never heard of Brown, Vassar, or Swarthmore. I do not think this is the wisest way to choose where one attends college, but you mentioned it so there is the perception of each college by prestige where I live.</h2>

<p>Right, now I will address some of the cons you mentioned.</p>

<p>At Brown, you said you might feel “intimidated.” You will not. All the Brown students I have encountered are smart yet down to earth. If you got into Brown, you belong there. Be confident in your abilities. It is much bigger than Vassar or Swarthmore, and this is what strikes me as the most important factor in a decision. It also has graduate students. Some people prefer a large university where they can be anonymous or have less people knowing what they are up to. Other people prefer a more close-knit liberal arts school where professors are more interested in the undergraduates. Finally, Brown is in a nicer surrounding area than the other two. Vassar probably has the most beautiful campus though I can see why some might favor Swarthmore’s campus. Beauty is subjective anyway.</p>

<p>At Swarthmore, you will probably have to redefine your definition of hard work. It does not have the open curriculum of Vassar or Brown, and this might be a deal breaker for you. The academics are so exceptional at Swarthmore that I do not really see the need to be taking classes at Haverford or other affiliated schools. It is probably the quirkiest place of the three, and I think it is fair to say that its students are rather stressed. That being said, it is a phenomenal academic school that is highly respected by any notable graduate program. </p>

<p>At Vassar, you will have the best campus and access to New York. From my understanding, it is not quite as cutthroat as Swarthmore, and this is a factor worth considering. It is true that it is not as highly ranked as the other two schools, but that is pretty insignificant. A graduate or law school will not differentiate between the rigor of these three schools. However, Vassar’s biggest drawback is of course the town of Poughkeepsie. Vassar is probably the most diverse in terms of its student’s sexual orientations and interests. In terms of the number of students, Vassar occupies the middle ground between Brown and Swarthmore. It seems like you would fit in at Vassar and Brown based on your post. </p>

<p>In terms of the overall vibe and student body, I would say that Brown and Vassar are more similar to each other than either is to Swarthmore. A visit or overnight stay at all three will probably make things much clearer. </p>

<p>I applied and got into all three of these schools, but I ultimately chose Princeton for various reasons. I wish you the best of luck in making your decision. You really cannot go wrong with either Brown, Vassar, or Swarthmore. They are all excellent! Do not buy into the petty elitism and obsession with prestige that is reflected in the posts of people like “Amc61517.” You will succeed at the school where you best fit and not necessarily the highest ranked one. </p>

<p>P.S. Please excuse my atrocious grammar as I am currently trying to do five things at once. </p>

<p>[-X [-X </p>

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<p>Thank you all so much for your helpful responses! I just got back from ADOCH at Brown and, while I had fun, did not feel a fit. The kids were really happy and fun, but I didn’t feel like it was for me. I found myself thinking about Vassar every time they mentioned the open curriculum! I’m just about to leave to go to Swat’s ride the tide, but all the comments about the level of stress really have me concerned and I think it might be too small. Thanks @Bubinski‌ and @BrownParent‌ for bringing me back into the conversation! </p>