<p>For some people, Gettysburg (for example) is a better school than Grinnell (for example).</p>
<p>For some people, Grinnell is a better school than Gettysburg.</p>
<p>For most people, it doesn’t much matter. What the student does after the student gets to college is a lot more important than where the student goes to college.</p>
<p>It certainly doesn’t depend on USNWR rankings, which are based on factors that have nothing to do with the quality of the education available to the motivated student - or much of anything else except prestige.</p>
<p>If I were in the OP’s happy dilemma, unless there was a compelling reason to select one over the other, I’d go with whichever was cheapest.</p>
<p>Sally,
You are fortunate if you haven’t noticed the few who doggedly insist that cheapest is best (even if the school doesn’t offer the major their child wants) and who cut/paste the same, 7 yr old review article, ad nauseum. The OP asked specifically about prestige of the schools. There are a few <em>very</em> persistent posters who will steer away from that issue. While in the ideal world prestige shouldn’t matter, in some cases and to some people it does.</p>
<p>I’d be fine with sending my D to any of the schools you’ve named if it was affordable (of course, I’m not even sure any of them are the real two schools in question). To me, the question is which school your S prefers, putting aside the rankings. Before the results were in, did he have a favorite? If he did, and the waitlist school was it, then of course he should go there. If not, then it’s harder, and I wouldn’t hazard an opinion without knowing the two schools involved.</p>
<p>jym, trust me–I get that. My kids go to a high school where perceived prestige is very, very important. And a big part of the reason people attach importance to it is so that they can have the “right” sticker on the back windshield of their Volvo, and congratulate themselves on having done everything correctly to get their kids into the schools they deem worthy. When you ask some kids (or their parents) why they are considering certain well-known institutions, there are often few SPECIFIC reasons other than “it has a good reputation.” Not “because I want to study with professor X” or “it offers fantastic research opportunities for undergrads” or “it has one of the highest rates of acceptance into PhD programs in classics” or “because I have no idea what I want to do and this will allow me to explore that” or even “because I have no idea what I want to do, it doesn’t seem to make sense to spend $60K a year to find out when there are other good and more affordable options–and I might need that money later.”</p>
<p>As for specific rankings, USNWR is a flawed authority on which schools are better than others (read the Malcolm Gladwell article from the New Yorker I linked on an earlier page of this discussion if you want to see why). The reliance on asking heads of colleges to evaluate peer institutions pretty much ensures that it’s the schools they have heard of from earlier years that continue to get positive rankings–even if the programs are declining or (as in the example of the Penn State law school) do not exist in the first place. There is little short-term mobility in the rankings for “up-and-coming” schools, no matter how innovative or impressive their programs.</p>
<p>OP, this may be difficult but may clarify things for you.</p>
<p>Can you set aside the rankings for a bit? Consider everything else you know about the schools, pro and con. Maybe even make a list. Without that one number, how do the schools look? </p>
<p>If the higher-ranked school is still the favorite, even without the rank, then you have your answer.</p>
<p>I think that it is really a question of fit and what is best for your son and your family. All of these schools are fine schools and without knowing the specifics, it is hard to provide advice especially as you have good financial package for each school and it is not a stretch dollar-wise to make it happen. Assuming that you have visited and toured the school you deposited as well as the higher ranked school, you have some idea of the campus culture at each and you’ve compared the individual department, curriculum, faculty, student opportunities, in my opinion, the ranking of each school should not be the deal-breaker. It would be where your son see’s himself most comfortable and excited about the courses and the opportunities.
By the way, this is a similar decision faced at the grad level too-whether for MA/Ph.D programs, law schools, medical schools, MFA programs. My older d deferred acceptance at one grad school, turned down two offers at other schools and happily moved off the waitlist at the school where she earned her MFA and out of all the schools she applied to, was the right school for her. It is one of the top #5 in the country in her field and while some of the others at the top might seem more prestigious, they were not right for her. Younger d’s bf just faced this decision-decide between two outstanding acceptances for Ma/Ph.D. program, along with many rejections, hold out for his waitlisted school or accept another prestigious program for MA only.</p>
<p>I think the “accepted of the waitlist” schools are definitely more prestigious and if there isn’t a huge money difference (i.e., if they are affordable), I’d definitely go with one of them. (I also kind of brissle at jym’s suggestion that people who suggest cheaper schools are ignorant psuedo-cultists. I’m a big fan of my cheap 3rd tier alma marter simply because I had an excellent experience there, but I recognize that there are some drawbacks to my decision and that often higher ranked schools can be better choices, if do-able financially. Despite acknowledging this, I <em>personally</em> would not change in my college decision).</p>
<p>With that being said, I think CCers in general over-estimate how much people outside of CC or academia know about schools outside of their state u’s, Ivy League schools, MIT/Caltech, and schools with really successful sports teams. Not saying that’s right necessarily, but I think that is reality. And yes, this includes most people who hire employees. My father used to hire engineers for a very large company, and I’d be quite surprised if he knew much about Carnegie Mellon, tbh. It can be a tipping point at some places in some industries, though. I don’t think it ever really hurts and may help when it counts.</p>
<p>psych, forgive me for laughing, but Carnegie Mellon is ranked higher for engineering than most Ivy programs (always in top 10). If he hadn’t heard of Carnegie Mellon, or Rose Hulman, then he was not doing a good job of recruiting engineers based on prestige.</p>
<p>Totally understand and agree with you, sally. I have often referred to the “prestige is top priority” mentality selection process as the “car window decal” selection, and it makes about as much sense as relying totally on the USNews, which, agreed, is NOT the way one should identify the value of a school. And it would be WONDERFUL if more students did the kind of research you describe, to look, for example, at the research the faculty is doing in the field they think they may pursue, or the opportunities available if their school of interest has a one month winter recess. Some students do this level of research, but not enough do. </p>
<p>You and I may agree completely that “prestige” or perceived “prestige” or a number on a list in a magazine or how it looks on the car window should NOT be the reason to choose a school, and this has been beaten to death in the almost 8 years I’ve been on this site. But if a parent and student can afford to make that a priority of theirs, whether or not it is the one we might recommend, it is their choice. I would not pick any school purely because it has the best name recognition any more than I would pick a school purely because it is the cheapest (unless it was all I could afford).</p>
<p>** ETA: Psych- I think you misunderstand me. There is nothing wrong with less expensive schools. Nothing at all. But I would never push the cheapest school on my kid, especially if it didnt even offer the major my kid wanted, unless it was absolutley the only thing I could afford. Cheaper is not always better. Of course in the college pricing game, it can be a difficult bouncing ball. But picking a school because is the cheapest, unless its all that is affordable, may make no better sense than picking a school because of the bragging rights for the decal on the back of the car.</p>
<p>Clay- my son spent his freshman year at the school to which he had been deferred and waitlisted. He was overwhelmed academically, lost his confidence, and began to feel that maybe they were right in not having accepted him off the bat. It was a rough experience, and he is transferring to a local college and commuting next year. I am sure there was a lot more to it, but he maintains it was due to being over his head academically. Be sure yours is up to the challenge of what might be a more rigorous course load, and wouldn’t prefer to succeed more easily at somewhere that might be a notch below.</p>
<p>Except that course rigor does not factor into any of the commonly used rankings.</p>
<p>And:</p>
<p>A study of course examination rigor at 40 research universities differing in undergraduate student body selectivity found, “Selectivity had no significant relationship with the percentage of examination questions asked at the higher-order levels of comprehension, application, or critical thinking levels. This finding suggests that more selective research universities tend not to give any more rigorous examinations than less selective ones. To the extent that rigor in course examinations reflects similar rigor in the instruction received (an association that cannot be determined from the study), it may be that undergraduate selectivity alone is simply not a particularly effective way of identifying universities that have demanding academic programs.” – Ernest T. Pascarella and Patrick T. Terenzini, “How College Affects Students, Volume 2: A Third Decade of Research.” San Francisco: Jossey-Bass, 2005, p. 80</p>
<p>Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Not all of us may want to admit it, but none of us truly know what goes on from one classroom to the next, nor do we really know what are kids are doing to prepare for homework and exams, and we certainly are not privy to the exams themselves and cannot possibly compare them from one university to the next. </p>
<p>I admit that in my son’s case, it probably was a lot more than just academic struggling that caused him to want to transfer. </p>
<p>Despite the study cited above, I still believe that the calculus course that was so difficult for my son at his university had to be somehow different than the one his friend who is at a school way down on the rankings list took. A dear friend’s son who transferred from a top ranked (non-Ivy) university to a middle of the road reputation university explained his viewpoint to my son. At the first university, the pace in the classroom was really fast, which often left me behind, because everyone was incredibly smart and “got it”. At the school I am at now, I’m the smartest guy in the class, and the material is covered much more slowly, since everyone else seems to have a hard time. Here I have a 4.0!</p>
<p>And before everyone gets all preachy - I am not saying that is a good thing for everyone. It’s just one 21 year old’s view of the world. Take it as you may.</p>
<ol>
<li> Grinnell/Macalester/Careleton may be similar in US News rankings… but they are not similar in terms of life on each campus. To start with, Grinnell is quite rural, Macalester is in the heart of a large urban area. </li>
</ol>
<p>For a prospective poli sci/econ major, location may be important in terms of off-campus opportunities, jobs, internships, volunteer opportunities. </p>
<p>Since the OP did not choose to name the school, it’s hard for us to give advice – your son will have to figure that out on his own. But I have some suggestions below.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>The other thing we don’t know is how near you live to the colleges in question. Urban/rural also has some relevance here, as well as your son’s feelings about distance from home. How will your son get to each college? How long will it take? Will he be able to come home for thanksgiving or other short breaks? Does he want to?</p></li>
<li><p>In terms of major: look long and hard at what each college offers to and requires of poli sci/econ majors, as well as the general ed requirements for each college. Look to see what opportunities are offered to students. What courses are offered? What guest lecturers come to campus? What type of internship opportunities or programs are available? Some of this information may come from looking at an events page on the college web site for the past year – some may come from really digging through relevant department web pages, faculty bios, etc. Also, look at the size of each department, number of tenured faculty, number & range of courses offered, required course sequence. What about AP credits, particularly in Econ - if your son has AP credits, look to see how each college will handle them. Will he be exempted from the intro level courses? Can the AP be used to fill a general ed requirement or a specific requirement for the major? </p></li>
</ol>
<p>Now is really the time to focus on the academics – not how “hard” things will be but on what the experience will be like. </p>
<p>Your son may want to go to a site like Ratemyprofessors and see if there are reviews of the profs who typically teach in those departments. </p>
<ol>
<li>Your son’s SAT scores are irrelevant to how well he will do in each college. My son had SAT scores in the top quartile for his first college (a US News top 50 LAC) – but did poorly. My daughter’s scores put her in the very bottom quartile of her college (a US news top 30 LAC), but she graduated near the top of her class. Both colleges were clearly under-ranked by US News and were quite rigorous – the difference was in attitudes toward school work and study habits.</li>
</ol>