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<p>This is precisely the kinds of differences we were all intuitively referring to as we talked about these schools. I didn’t know the numbers, but this doesn’t surprise me in the least. Live and learn!!</p>
<p>Filling in the “gap,” Franklin & Marshall is 28-31 for midrange ACT scores with 48% of the students submitting the ACT falling between 30-36.</p>
<p>I haven’t read all the responses, but if it were my son part of the decision would be based upon where he thought he’d want to get a job later. The local PA colleges would fare better around where I live as many locals wouldn’t recognize the others. Around here a school is as good as their football team - otherwise, an LAC needs to be local (within a few states - perhaps regional would be better) to be known. People give preference to hiring from local schools IME. If he wants to live in a region closer to one of his waitlist schools, going there is likely to be a better choice. If he wants to live elsewhere, then going to the more nationally recognized school would be more helpful. </p>
<p>Stats-wise, I don’t see much difference between the schools. A couple points isn’t going to make a hoot of difference. Name on the degree and whether it’s known or not where one wants to work might.</p>
<p>To me, it is not really the score ranges that are the key differences, but the ‘type’ of student that enrolls at each school. You can have students with great test scores but not intellectual in the least bit. You can have students with not as great test scores but very intellectual and wordly (I am thinking of Earlham College).</p>
<p>Grinnell, Macalester, Carleton seem to get an ‘intellectual’ type student. </p>
<p>Gburg and Dickinson from (what I have read) seem to be very, very, very pre-professional.</p>
<p>The only one in that collection that’s compelling to me is Grinnell. Grinnell and its graduates are pretty well known in the Northeast. I’d never heard of Dickinson. I thought Macalester was Canadian. When I hear Carleton the only thing I can think of is the drab sound of “This is Carleton, your doorman” from that television show with Valerie Harper. Gettysburg, never heard of it, either. Maybe they’re all NKOTB.</p>
<p>I must be strange (or have been hanging out on CC too long). I knew all those schools. I’m somewhat surprised F&M has basically the same scores as Grinnell and Macalester.</p>
<p>“I’m somewhat surprised F&M has basically the same scores as Grinnell and Macalester.”</p>
<p>That’s because it doesn’t. It’s test-optional. Applicants with low scores don’t report them, so they don’t drag down the school’s range. I’m all for test-optional admissions, but there’s no way to compare the score range of an optional school to that of a school where tests are required.</p>
<p>I knew all of the schools too, I must confess. </p>
<p>I think that picking a regional school on the basis of where a 17 or 18 yr old kid thinks s/he might want to live 10 years from now is…not wise, to say the least. Keep your options option is my mantra.</p>
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<p>And this is where I would think - there’s no need at this point for my kids to “commit” to living in any particular part of the country, who knows what the future will hold; which is why I would personally say go to the stronger school, even if it’s unknown in certain parts, because I believe a stronger school will ultimately wind up providing more opportunities. After all, if the criteria is “will get a job in XYZ Metropolitan area,” that leads you pretty much to state flagships and other well-known schools, which may or may not be good depending on the area.</p>
<h2>"You can have students with not as great test scores but very intellectual and wordly (I am thinking of Earlham College).</h2>
<p>Agree with Haystack on this…the kids I know who have gone to Earlham are exactly as you describe.</p>
<p>I don’t think future factors are predictable, including the loyalties of some unknown personnel person or future boss.</p>
<p>My S chose Williams because it inspired him. He thought he was going into music at the time. Now he is going into a grad program in Art History, a field in which Williams is very strong. But he had no way of knowing this at the time. All things being equal (by that I mean money) we should encourage our kids to stretch and be inspired. Whatever that means for the OP’s son. And yes, some kids are freer and more inspired by staying amid their family at a more local school.</p>
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<p>I knew all of the schools too, but it’s due to being on cc. If I were to ask random kids (or teachers) at the school where I work, very few would have heard of any out of our area. Ditto that with the neighbors, our circle of employers, etc. People who hang out here on cc tend to think that everyone knows every school, but it’s really only true in academia. In the rest of the world, people know what they come across and are biased toward that which they “know” is good over the unknown.</p>
<p>If one picks a school that is unknown they ARE hindering their chances at getting a job in a regional area. It’s not a case of only hindering if one chooses regional and opts to work elsewhere. One is making a choice. Go to Grinnell and try to get a job where I live and I’d wish you luck. Graduate from Gettysburg or F & M and you’ll get an interview (note: I live VERY close to Gettysburg). The opposite would happen elsewhere.</p>
<p>Think of all the posts on that thread where people mention comments made to them from people who didn’t know the college their chaps were going to (smile and nod thread). Many of those making the comments being talked about are doing the hiring.</p>
<p>No one local heard of son’s UG, but the grad programs and job market for him, they certainly did. His friend just graduated MIT PhD program, and her UG was Carleton. When she came to MIT, she was invited to live in apt with former Carleton UGs. Obviously, that school is respected by grad programs.</p>
<p>Grinnel and Mac are well known in CC community. Any future employer can look up a college in a minute.</p>
<p>My guys have selected colleges farther from home than is typical as well. Their schools are well known for what they want to do, so it’s more important to us than getting a job locally (which they aren’t likely to do). We’ve educated our fair share of friends and acquaintances to “new” college names, but I’ve few delusions that many will remember them (maybe, with middle son’s choice). </p>
<p>While future employers could look up a college, around here, in these economic times, they don’t. Most do their first sort through applications in seconds and are looking for colleges they know. They have plenty to choose from, so why look up one they don’t know?</p>
<p>It’s a choice, either way. Each family/student needs to choose what is important to them. It’s a fallacy to think the choice won’t have implications. Most students I work with want to live locally - close to family, etc. If that’s their priority, going to a locally known school is a plus. For those with other aspirations (like my guys) choosing a school known for getting them there is more important.</p>
<p>Avoiding the “must stay here” mentality is important to me. S’s school is close by and that is its one disadvantage - I would have liked him to experience a different part of the country for undergrad.</p>
<p>I told mine they couldn’t look within 2 hours of home… but I relented and let both consider one (each) close by. I’m happy they’ve chosen farther away (12 hours and 6 hours by car respectively), BUT, we’re not as “set” locally as most in our area. Neither of us (parents) are from this local area and we want our guys to see more of the world, then settle where they want. Since they aren’t looking for local jobs, this works. Both are headed toward fields where they’ll be able to get jobs (somewhere). If they wanted to come back here to work, it’d be tougher. We’d have to network a bit.</p>
<p>For most, if they want to stay local, it’s easier to go to a locally known school. Different strokes for different folks.</p>
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It seems to me that you should consider what would be likely to happen in parts of the country that aren’t near either Grinnell OR Gettysburg. In such places, the place with the better national rep will be better. In this case, that’s Grinnell.</p>
<p>My D did not want to venture far. We live in a very distant (2 hrs)of NYC, and her goal was always living in NYC. Can’t say it hurt her to be close. She loves cities, and spent part if junior year in London, which I found redundant, but it was what she wanted. Her school does have a national reputation (more this week because Obama was the commencement speaker.) I would have preferred that she venture further afar, but she knew what she wanted.</p>
<p>S went to very rural MA six hours away, but I don’t think it changed him. He did eventually get a car and move himself in and out, and that offered life skills.</p>
<p>I did not want D so close by, but it was fun to pop in on a random weekend and take her out to brunch. She loved not losing touch with family and friends, but I really didn’t see any loss in independence as I had been afraid might happen.</p>
<p>I think the only requirement is that a school be academically sound.</p>
<p>I was glad that only one of her friends ended up in NYC, and it was a different school. One was uptown; one downtiwn, and they only saw each other about twice a semester. The point is, we want things for them, but they may want different things for themselves. I think their preferences should rule, even if it’s the local state u where they see their high school friends.</p>
<p>I went to school with high school friends and married someone from my high school who I hadn’t known while in high school. I must say, there were many benefits I could never have anticipated like being able to see both families on Thanksgiving.</p>
<p>Both kids are back, living at home and about to earn a masters at the local state u. Living at home is the only way they can afford it. I can’t see how it’s stifling them, though I do think it’s stifling me, LOL.</p>
<p>“If I were to ask random kids (or teachers) at the school where I work, very few would have heard of any out of our area. Ditto that with the neighbors, our circle of employers, etc. People who hang out here on cc tend to think that everyone knows every school, but it’s really only true in academia. In the rest of the world, people know what they come across and are biased toward that which they “know” is good over the unknown.”</p>
<p>I have actually done that - told random people that I was interacting with (at a coffee shop, at a Fedex store, at a Radio Shack, etc) that I was doing an experiment and could they name what they considered the top X universities / colleges in the country. Most of them look at me as though they’ve never considered the question at all. You get Harvard, sometimes you get Stanford; here in Chicago, you’ll get Northwestern but not because they’re really familiar with it and have an informed opinion - it’s more just top-of-mind “oh, that’s a school for smart kids.” Sometimes Notre Dame comes in there, too. If I then say, well, what about Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, Brown, Duke, MIT … yeah, maybe they will recognize a few of those names, but just as likely maybe not. But so what? It’s completely folly IMO to care about what the man on the street knows / thinks, because their opinion is based on not really knowing or caring about the subject at hand. Look, most people in Chicago know of DePaul and Marquette and don’t know of Brown or Swarthmore or Dartmouth. Would that be a compelling argument to send your kid to DePaul or Marquette over those other three? Of course not. The uninformed opinions of most people aren’t meaningful. Which is exactly how I consider the person who says, “Well, I’ve heard of Dickinson, it’s down the street, I know some people who have gone there, seems decent enough - what’s this Grinnell thing? Carleton thing?” They aern’t educated in the topic - which is fine and their prerogative and they needn’t share the same interests as me - but then why should I care about their opinions? More people know WalMart than Neiman-Marcus, too - doesn’t make WalMart’s clothing nicer.</p>
<p>I don’t think you are doing justice to the academic stature of Dickinson, Gettysburg and Franklin and Marshall.</p>
<p>You could say East Stroudsberg and make your point better. </p>
<p>PA is blessed with many schools that have excellent academic reputations. Dickinson was founded in the late 1700’s. I’m not sure of the historical factors that catapulted Williams in its academic reputation and not Dickinson. Perhaps it was just that it was in MA and not PA, and there were more schools in PA. Lehigh and Lafayette are others.</p>
<p>They do not have the selectivity of Swat and Haverford, it’s true (leaving aside Bryn Mawr for a moment), but some of that is historical accident. Dickinson, for one, has one of the largest and most beautiful college libraries. Gettysburg is known for Civil War Studies on a national level (well duh!), and I’m sure Franklin and Marshall has a great calling card too.</p>
<p>As I’ve said, I prefer group two, the waitlist selection, but in this particular case, I just don’t think the difference is great enough for some of the analogies.</p>
<p>The folks who started Amherst thought Williams was too provincial and remote and would never amount to a hill of beans. The prez and half the faculty left during the night with students and some say half the library. The schools are now friendly rivals (well my Eph would argue not friendly at all, but I do think there’s some humor there), but every year Williams is rated #1 and Amherst not I think it’s a humorous victory for reductionistic thinking.</p>
<p>I’m not sure which of the second set of schools I’d choose, but it’s just because they have a bit more glamor to me. I might not feel that way if I saw Dickinson’s library.</p>
<p>My point is that although the point of a “national reputation” is a good one, it is not a commanding one, and I’m not even sure it’s a completely accurate distinction in this case.</p>
<p>Williams folks fly pretty might under the radar too, but no one their doubts the caliber of his/her school, even after folks confuse it with William and Mary.</p>
<p>I’m sure it’s because from my vantage point, Grinnell and Carleton have been known as outstanding schools attracting the very best and the brightest from all over for years and it’s amusing to me to read the northeast-centric viewpoint that they are johnny-come-latelies. I GET the northeast-centric viewpoint, having been raised in it! I also have to say, the kids who I know (kids of old friends of mine who are still in PA) who are going to F&M are just … nice, reasonably smart kids, but not top-tier level kids academically. Just not at the level of kids that Grinnell and Carleton have been attracting for years.</p>