Help! Complicated HS Curriculum/Administration Issue

Parents Forum
1

<p>Here's the story:</p>

<p>DS is a high school junior with a 3.0 gpa UW who has been in a advanced honors math, science, and technology program for the past 2.5 yrs at his school (it accounts for two classes--AH physics and AH pre-calc during his six period day). The program is part of a national consortium and is highly respected in our state. In AH pre-calc he got a D+ for the first semester. When it became apparent he was getting the D+, I talked to my son about switching out of AH to "regular" pre-calc; we agreed it was a good idea, but no plan was made. </p>

<p>On the next school day (which was the first day of the new semester), I went to his guidance couselor (who is new this year) and asked to make the switch. She agreed it was a good idea and proceeded. He was able to keep his schedule the same except swapping 3rd hour spanish for 5th hour with the same teacher. I surprised DS with the news after school. It's all good. Yesterday--9 school days after the switch--DS gets called to the guidance office and is told he must also drop AH physics (which he did okay in 1st semester and currently has an A in--and he loves it). He protests and the guidance counselor tells him to take it up with the program's director. </p>

<p>DS goes to director after school and is told he has to leave AH physics if he leaves AH pre-calc. Period. Why? Because. DS calls me and tells me what's happened and asks me to come and talk to director. Director tells me same. No reason beyond, they're Program classes and if you leave one you have to leave the other. "Curricular problems? Administrative problems?", I ask. "He can't be in one, he has to be in both...or none." I ask if an exception can be made. No. Why not? Take it up with the principal. Principal seems receptive--will talk to director and get back to us. Gets back to us today--DS must leave AH physics, switch to different APLAC class, and is also in new spanish and pre-calc classes--all his friends are in his other classes and, above all, there seems to be no reason he can't be in AH physics beyond "that's the way it is". There was some mention of the program's definition vis a vis the consortium, but DS (and parents) are okay with DS not being designated as a Program kid any longer...and none of us understands why son's continued inclusion in AH Physics would jeopardize anything relative to the Program's status in the consortium (it does not accredit or certify in any way, in fact it states "dedicated to transforming mathematics, science, and technology education, is to create synergies among schools engaged in educational innovation by shaping national policy, fostering collaboration and developing, testing, implementing, and disseminating exemplary programs" and, come on, it's a school--shouldn't they want what's best for my son? It should also probably be noted that the AH pre-calc teacher is apparently miffed that DS didn't talk to him prior to switching classes (DS didn't really know it was going down, but perhaps I should have talked to him--it didn't occur to me that it would come as a surprise, given his grades.)</p>

<p>Okay...so, thanks if you've read this far...and: What do you think? DS wants to take it further and go to the superintendent on principle; it's wrong to not allow DS to pursue the most rigorous coursework.</p>

<p>Mom and Dad want son to drop it; even though we agree with DS that it's wrong that he be excluded, we feel he jeopardizes losing the goodwill of the principal (who has pledged a strong college recommendation that DS and we will be able to read and who has chaperoned DS on a 9 day school trip) and the AH pre-calc teacher (who also teaches AP Calc) and the Program director (who doesn't really matter to son directly, but can affect the life of AH physics teacher, who also teaches "regular" physics and is an all-around great guy.</p>

<p>Again, opinions? Insights? Many thanks.</p>

2

<p>I would probably make them produce a written rule in the course selection guide that mandates AH Physics is linked to AH Precalc. And even if it is, I don't see any reason to make your son change his entire schedule to get the appropriate math class. </p>

<p>Why do you think he got a D in math? If it is a problem with the teacher, could he take the same class with a different teacher? That might make all the difference, especially since he has been successful in the honors math and science courses up until now. </p>

<p>That said, our school does not mandate AP Calc as a prerequisite for AP Physics, but it really is. You need to know some calc almost immediately to do the physics and kids who don't are really at a disadvantage. Maybe they feel that some pre-calc is needed at minimum?</p>

<p>I agree that you have to watch out for vindictive teachers and administrators. Maybe your son has never been burned before and doesn't realize that this could actually happen.</p>

3

<p>Schmoo - I'm very sorry, but you already have your answer. Yes it's unfair. Yes it's arbitrary. Yes it needn't have ended up this way. But IMHO a pyrrhic victory isn't what your S needs right now.</p>

4

<p>I would drop it. If the school is saying it's a combined program and you have to take both courses to take any, and it's gone as high up as it has without a change, then I don't think it's going to change without negative repercussions to your son. I have seen enough situations where teachers/administrators were miffed and the kids suffered to learn to pick battles carefully, and this would not be one I wanted to fight. It's unfortunate, and it doesn't seem fair, but I can tell you that the criteria for honors and AP classes at our HS aren't terribly fair, either. Unless you're tracked into a certain program starting in 3rd grade, it's really hard to qualify for the most rigorous classes in our high school. You'd think educators would realize that kids mature at different rates, but apparently not. . .</p>

5

<p>Well, can he go back into the higher level math class? Perhaps get him a tutor (meet more than once week, maybe even daily after school). If your son is capable of getting an A in Physics-- he is capable of succeeding in calculus, he just may need more support to get there.</p>

6

<p>Thanks for reading and responding, ikf.</p>

<p>My son will be in precalc either way, it's just he (and we) prefer the honors class he's been in and don't think the switch is in his best interest. Unfortunately, there is only one AH pre-calc teacher. He also teaches AP Calc, which DS can take next year regardless of which pre-calc class he completes this year.</p>

<p>He got the D largely because he misses turning in assignments or turns assignments in late a lot. He misses handing in an assignment or two in APLAC and AH Physics too (so, he's not the most organized kid in the world), but those teachers are forgiving (probably because it's not habitual like it is in AH pre-calc). His problem with handing in assignments in pre-calc has a lot to do with a noisy classroom and an inconsistent turn-in policy--not all assignments are collected and DS doesn't always hear the call--sits in assigned seat in back and teacher doesn't ever change seat assignment. He does okay on quizzes and tests and could get at least B's IF he handed in all the assignments on time. In 2.5 years with this teacher it has always been a problem. </p>

<p>NewHope - Thanks for the reinforcement. I so wish it wasn't this way. I've actually managed to raise a principled young man. In advising him, I have gone 'round and 'round with him about all the possible scenarios. He says he's going to be in an APLAC class where the kids don't care (one who's in his new pre-calc class told him, "you can sit with us--we call it the do nothing class"); all the Program kids are in the other APLAC class because that's what fits their schedules. He will be with some of those kids in AP Econ only. All other classes will be with non-Program kids, some of whom he will have a passing acquaintance with. And he won't be in the AH Physics class he belongs in for no good reason and his parents--the people who have always told him to stand up for what's right, that it's not good enough to walk away when someone's being mistreated, but one must stand up for that person--are making him accept being mistreated. I'm having a really hard time stomaching it myself--how can I expect my mushy-frontal lobed, very angry teenage son to swallow this?</p>

<p>Anyway, he's off at school as of a few minutes ago and, since it's Friday and there's a group presentation in APLAC and a test in physics, the plan, as we left it with the principal yesterday was to go to both those classes and start the switch on Monday. DS's plan as of midnight last night was to go to APLAC so as to not let down his partner and come home after "even if I have to walk home" (two miles in freezing weather with no coat). We did not talk about it on the way to school today. He refused breakfast saying, "no thanks, I'm not hungry," which is the usual, and we rode in silence to school. We arrived right behind one of his best girl friends (his girlfriend's best friend), who is an underclassman and completely out of all DS's academic loops, he said with mild enthusiasm, "it's Adrienne", and I watched him knock her gently with his shoulder twice, bouncing apart and coming back together each time, as they walked together up the pathway.</p>

<p>There's even a nice dose of irony in this situation. My husband is a PhD engineer exec in charge of all things this school "Program" purports to stand for (advancement of science, technology, innovation) for a large corporation that is the area's biggest employer. My SIL is an AP science teacher who consistently wins grants (one very prestigious one) and was a finalist for state teacher of the year this year (in a far away state), and my BIL is chairman of a science department at a top LAC. Talk at our dinner table very often centers on science, technology, and innovation. Could there be a family more in tune with this Program's aims?</p>

7

<p>
[quote]
Well, can he go back into the higher level math class? Perhaps get him a tutor (meet more than once week, maybe even daily after school). If your son is capable of getting an A in Physics-- he is capable of succeeding in calculus, he just may need more support to get there.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Yes, at least we think he can, but DS really doesn't believe he can succeed in that class. I proposed exactly that to DS and, as of midnight, he considered but rejected that option. I hope he can get his head around that idea this weekend. Of course, that does mean a fair amount of catch-up, but he does say "they've just been doing logarithms", so maybe it is do-able.</p>

<p>Mdoc, thanks for your input. It does help to know others think the same way. It's not even that we are asking for admission to a class, we're really asking that he not be kicked out of one they put him in to begin with.</p>

8

<p>
[quote]
He got the D largely because he misses turning in assignments or turns assignments in late a lot. He misses handing in an assignment or two in APLAC and AH Physics too

[/quote]

Schmoomcgoo you have an underlying issue that needs to be addressed. It may not even matter if he is in the lower or higher level class. He has hit the brick wall that comes eventually to those smart kids (usually S's) that can't get organized. Good that it came now and not in college like S3 for us. The teachers that are forgiving are not doing him any favors. </p>

<p>Work with a tutor, a testing group or an organizational specialist to help him figure out how to manage what he has to accomplish. </p>

<p>I know this was not your original question, but it is more important to his long term success.</p>

9

<p>
[quote]
Work with a tutor, a testing group or an organizational specialist to help him figure out how to manage what he has to accomplish.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How would I go about this? I'm sure I can find a tutor, but I don't understand how a tutor would help with organization. What kind of testing? (He does have a clinical diagnosis of ADD, for which he began taking medicine at the beginning of 2nd quarter. His grades improved significantly or markedly in all classes except precalc. The new precalc teacher doesn't collect homework at all, but goes over it in class and will allow re-takes for up to 89% credit, but only if the student can prove he's done all homework. Great plan for my kid. DS is very frustrated by his inability to discern any pattern to AH precalc teacher's collection of homework.) There are "organizational specialists"? How would I find one?</p>

10

<p>I vote for giving AH pre-calc another try, too. That may not be the best math class for your son, but the alternative is a whole raft of not-quite-appropriate classes in everything else.</p>

<p>As arbitrary and unfair as the whole system seems, I think you have to acknowledge that you made two, maybe three, serious and avoidable mistakes here. (1) The D+ was a message, and instead of communicating with the person who sent it, your family disrespected him and went around him. I don't think you meant to do that, but it's what you did, certainly from his viewpoint, and probably from the viewpoint of the program director (who probably thinks he should have been consulted, too). (2) Granted, you were putting the rabbit in the hat, but after the first paragraph of the OP I thought "The kid's going to get kicked out of his physics class." Asking whether the two classes were linked should have been pretty obvious. I would be really surprised if the kid didn't know that. (3) There's too much Mom taking charge here. Granted, sometimes that's the only way to get things done, but Son didn't even have a chance, and if Son had gone about it the kid way, he would almost certainly have been advised about this problem in advance, and you could have dealt with it as a non-crisis.</p>

<p>My best advice, based on what I'm reading, is to crawl back to everyone with your tail between your legs and apologize profusely for screwing things up as a helicopter parent, begging them not to take it out on your son, and promising never to "go down to the end of the town without consulting them" again. (Hope people get the literary reference.) And engage the math teacher about what son needs to do to succeed in his class.</p>

11

<p>
[quote]
Hope people get the literary reference.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't, but I get the rest, so I'm taking a pass! ;) So you really think I did too much? I've always felt like I haven't gotten involved enough...or maybe more accurately, soon enough. I spoke to this teacher at "Back to School Night" on the second or third day (night) of second quarter. My daughter had this teacher for five years, two of which my son also had him. I do understand now that he's miffed, but, frankly, I would have never guessed this guy would give a rat's patoutie! He is available before school every day and son has taken advantage of that, (daughter did too) but it really doesn't help. He's not inclined to change his homework collection (nor am I suggesting he should for my kid), and that's the source of DS's problems. DD is pretty quick and brutal in her assessments of DS's academic issues and even she agrees this teacher is no help when it comes to extra help and his homework collection does make things difficult; says he's "really smart, but not a very good teacher". Anyway, no rapport at all. Why would anyone think he'd care? But, okay, he does care. I can put my tail between my legs and apologize honestly. As for the director, I wasn't aware she was part of the hierarchy for these purposes (I'm still not sure). I thought she was "just" the head of the program in terms of it's connection with the consortium (she is) and perhaps a team leader administratively for the teachers. I've never talked to her before except when she's been the teacher on the other side of the desk at back to school night.</p>

<p>And yes, son did know the two classes were linked. His dad and I didn't believe him--it sounded preposterous to us. And the guidance counselor didn't know. And the computer didn't know.</p>

12

<p>^^^ (two posts up!) That's my very favorite children's poem. Thanks for giving me an excuse to go back and remember it. </p>

<p>(For anyone who missed this in their own childhood - see AA Milne's poem about James James Morrison Morrison Weatherby George Dupree.)</p>

13

<p>My sympathies to you and your S. We have a linked program like that.(AP English Language and AP US History). You can't take one without the other; you can't drop one without the other. Ugh!</p>

<p>And our school is very tough on letting you out of regular ed class if you are getting a D+. My daughter is struggling in Russian 3 and getting a D+, despite working fairly diligently every night on Russian. She clearly has hit a wall in this subject. We tried to switch into a semester elective for the second half of the year. But, nothing doing in our school! However my daughter is being a trooper. She has accepted that she may very well get a D in the subject and that will badly hurt her GPA. She just has gritted her teeth and re-adjusted her college list!</p>

14

<p>[From memory, so maybe not 100% accurate]:</p>

<p>James James Morrison Morrison
Weatherby George Dupree
Took great care of his mother
Though he was only three
James James said to his mother
"Mother," he said, said he,
"You must never go down to the end of the town if you don't go down with me"</p>

<p>James James Morrison's mother
Put on a velvet gown
James James Morrison's mother
Went to the end of the town
James James Morrison's mother
Said to herself, said she,
"I can get right down to the end of the town and be back in time for tea."</p>

<p>King John put up a notice:
Lost, or Stolen, or Strayed
James James Morrison's mother
Seems to have been mislaid
Last seen wandering freely
Quite of her own accord
She tried to go down to the end of the town -- Fifty shillings reward</p>

<p>James James Morrison Morrison
(Commonly known as Jim)
Told his other relations
Not to go blaming him
James James said to his mother,
"Mother," he said, said he,
"You must never go down to the end of the town without consulting me!"</p>

<p>James James Morrison's mother
Hasn't been heard from since
King John said he was sorry
So did the Queen and the Prince
King John, somebody told me,
Said to a man he knew:
"If people go down to the end of the town, well what can anyone do?"</p>

15

<p>The missing assignments issue seems to be the real problem here. Could you perhaps set up a conference with the math teacher, your son and yourself to talk about it and come up with a plan? I have a friend whose son seems to be very bright and personable but he just flunked out of community college and is working part-time for minimum wage. In high school he didn't turn in assignments so he got bad grades which then resulted in him not getting accepted to the state university he wanted to attend. He enrolled in a community college hoping to transfer but between not turning in assignments and missing classes he flunked out after a year. Now he is saying he never learned how to study. I doubt you will end up with such a disastrous result but better to address the problem now before it gets out of hand. </p>

<p>I have to add a disclaimer that I did just switch my son to a lower chemistry class due to low grades. He was turning in the homework, studying for the tests, going for tutoring etc but stilll doing poorly. So I just didn't see an alternative. But your son sounds like he can handle the math class if he just gets organized on the homework stuff.</p>

16

<p>The important thing, in my opinion, is whether the AH physics class and the other class to which he would be transferred cover the various topics in physics in the same order over the two semesters.</p>

<p>If they don't -- for example, if electricity is covered in the second semester in the AH class and the first semester in the other class, while optics is covered in the first semester in the AH class and the second semester in the other class -- this is an extremely strong argument for keeping him in the AH class. If he switches, he would miss learning about some topics and get duplicate instruction in others.</p>

<p>But if the two classes cover topics in the same order, it's hard to justify keeping him in the AH physics class if it's policy to have kids either in both AH science and AH math or neither.</p>

17

<p>Well, I vote for the OPs son to get back to all the original classes AND to deposit his homework on the teacher desk every day, either on the way in or out of class.</p>

18

<p>There are some great summer programs that teach study skills, organization and time management. Perhaps your DS would really benefit from one of these? These issues are probably best addressed before college.</p>

19

<p>
[quote]
Well, I vote for the OPs son to get back to all the original classes AND to deposit his homework on the teacher desk every day, either on the way in or out of class.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree completely. There are techniques for accomplishing this having to do with colored folders and the like. Kids with IEPs get help with this kind of technique all the time. Ask the special ed people at the school for suggestions. </p>

<p>He'll have to master this skill eventually. It would be a crying shame for him to screw up all of his other classes if he gets the material and is getting a bad grade simply because of not turning in homework.</p>

20

<p>I do not have an advice or a solution , just a comment:</p>

<p>The book I am reading right now (what an eye opener) states several times that derailments in one subject often spill over to others. Also, once you step away from the most challenging coursework, it will be very difficult to get back to the most challenging courses in that subject.</p>

<p>But every kid/family is different. Good luck !</p>