Help! Complicated HS Curriculum/Administration Issue

Parents Forum
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<p>Often teachers have suggestions for improving organizational skills. If the precalc teacher was disappointed not to have been consulted, perhaps the teacher was waiting to hear from the student that the student was ready to work on his organizational issues. Perhaps petitioning the teacher for a seat in the front row would have had a happier outcome. Talking to teachers about his concerns is an important skill for your son to develop and will benefit him in college.</p>

<p>I'm really sorry that you experienced this. It's too bad the GC didn't know the rules when you first moved to change classes.</p>

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<p>Having heard the reason for the D's in the class, my inclination would be to put him back into the program math class and start working on his organizational skills. In the long run this teacher probably did him a favor by not cutting him slack on this.</p>

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<p>I am truly appreciative of everyone's efforts on my son's and my behalf. I've gotten a lot of good advice and I have calls in to both the principal and the AH precalc teacher and am waiting for calls back.</p>

<p><<teacher called="" back="">></teacher></p>

<p>The teacher called back and I ascertained that he is willing to take DS back into his class provided DS commits to "putting the time in" to do the work necessary to succeed to the level that DS finds acceptable. The teacher also agreed to accept homework from DS every day regardless of whether it is kept by the teacher or handed right back to DS. He asked what DS wants to do and I told him frankly that husband and I had told him he had a choice between going back to the Program or switching all his classes and leaving the Program entirely and that DS was still unable to get past the injustice of it all at that time and it was our hope that he would choose to go back to the Program on Monday. The teacher said he couldn't see where there was any injustice--I told him husband and I both agreed with DS that their not allowing him to take one class that was best for him while not taking the other that is not his best option is indeed unjust, and we agreed to disagree. Awkward. I get the impression the teacher doesn't believe son does the work....</p>

<p>The message that I left with the principal was that last night was a rough night and I wanted to know if he'd had any interaction with DS today and I'd like to talk about it a bit more. When I left the message I was going to ask if he felt I should talk to the teacher. In the meantime I decided to go ahead and talk to the teacher and you all agreed, so I did. So I guess I'll just let the principal know about our conversation and that we've left the ball in DS's court and that we will support his decision. I will also ask about speaking with someone about helping with organization. Thanks.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
How would I go about this?

[/quote]

We used a tutor who was a middle school LD teacher. And yes we had all of ours tested for LD issues after the same sort of issues kept cropping up in very bright S's. It turns out we have a streak that runs through the family of processing issues. They had a hard time writing down assignments from the board, a phsyical issues with tracking from board to paper, writing the wrong things down, missing things, transposing others. It would take them too long so they would not do it and then would try to remember. Since they were bright that worked until they got to the level where it was too much to remember. </p>

<p>So the tutor was not a subject matter tutor, but an organizational and processing one. Worked with the kids and the school. Taught the kids how to organize and study so that it worked for them, not some cookie cutter approach the teacher was advocating. We also had to use some technology to assist them. Teachers cooperated for the most part and had assignment sheets printed for them. And the coaches who had a program where they had to have their teachers sign that they were turning work in in order to play. The 2 S's that we found this early and they had the tutor were successful in making the process work for them in college. The one that did not have the help ran into the problem in college where we could not help and flunked out. </p>

<p>There are learning centers, testing centers at universities. and tutoring companies that can help if you are anywhere near a metro area. Not sure about in other areas. If you have no testing facilities you might try to find out if teacher do tutoring and get one that is not in your child's school. But by having the testing done and making the school process a 504 plan, we made the school cooperate with us.</p>

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<p>My guess is that there is no discernable pattern to the AH calc teacher's homework collection policy and that this is done on purpose. The teacher doesn't want to have to collect homework every day, taking away class time, but wants to make sure that the students have done all the homework. So he collects it at random times. Kind of like the "pop quiz" philosophy.</p>

<p>The only "pattern" your son needs to follow is the one that says "Do your homework each night and bring it in every day." That's where your S needs help.</p>

<p>I'm also not surprised that they won't give your S a pass on AH Physics. Although they could have articulated it better to you, my guess is that the other math class doesn't teach everything they ened to know to keep up with AH Physics. Calc and physics are so closely linked in concepts that it's no shock to me that the classes are linked. It's not as if they're linking English and physics!</p>

<p>I agree that the bigger issue is your DS's lack of organization and inability to have his homework with him at all times. That needs to be worked on or he will have serious difficulties in college.</p>

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<p>Singersmom, I believe I have read some of your posts relative to processing issues before and they have resonated somewhat. What you just posted really makes me wonder...I did mention testing for processing issues to the principal when we talked yesterday (probably because of having read some of your posts). I will follow up on that today.</p>

<p>Chevda, you may be right about the pattern/pop quiz thing. One would think there might be curricular discrepancies at issue with the AH vs. regular classes; I asked that and was told that was not an issue, nor were there administrative issues. They are unable to articulate a reason beyond, essentially, "just because" or "that's the way it's always been in the ten years I've been here". I feel it's the school's purpose to appropriately educate my son and if there are no incompatibility issues between the two versions of the classes, I don't believe the reasons for removing my son from the class that he's thriving in and that was appropriate for him last week are anything but arbitrary. It's a conscious decision to not meet his specific needs because "we'd have to do it for everyone". My son's response to that was, "that's logically false because if everyone needed such an accomodation there would clearly be a need in the community that the school isn't meeting and if there are one or two kids a year, it's not a situation where they have to do anything for everybody." But that's moot. We've already conceded we're not going to get what we want and think is right.</p>

<p>What's heartening (and I hope my son will see it that way) is that we may be able to help him with organization and the teacher is open to that.</p>

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<p>Keeping my fingers crossed that your son agrees to the plan proposed ;)</p>

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<p>Just got off the phone with the principal. He's given me a phone number to call to get my son tested. I've called and left a message--they're closed on Friday afternoons.</p>

<p>TGIF</p>

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<p>Thank you, Mominva and everyone else!</p>

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<p>Long post alert!</p>

<p>I agree with the posters who have said that the underlying issue is your S’s organizational problems, which are most likely due to his ADD. It is good that he is now on medication and that the medication has helped, but sometimes a kid with ADD needs more than medication. It sounds as if your son could really benefit from some simple mandated accommodations. He can get these accommodations with either a Section 504 plan (as Singersmom07 did) or an IEP (Individualized Education Plan).</p>

<p>My DS, also a high school junior, has a 504 plan with some straightforward and widely-accepted accommodations that would probably also help your son. For example, DS has preferred seating, which means he gets to sit in the front row. The idea is to minimize distractions. This is especially helpful for my DS in math class.</p>

<p>Teachers are also required to give DS all the homework assignments in writing. This is to prevent the scenario where he misses the assignment (either altogether, or some important details) when the teacher orally tells the class what the homework is as they are all packing up and heading out the door! (For a kid with ADD in a noisy class, this is a killer.) The teacher can meet this accommodation by, for example, giving DS a hard copy list of all the assignments for the week (his English and History teachers do this anyway, for all the kids), or by posting the assignments online. DS’s school uses Blackboard for posting assignments online, and his math teacher is particularly good about using that resource.</p>

<p>Another accommodation that helps ensure that the student knows what the homework assignments are is to have the student write down the assignment in a planner and have the teacher initial the planner. DS had this accommodation in elementary school; it works best when there is only one teacher for most subjects.</p>

<p>My DS doesn’t happen to have the problem of forgetting to hand homework in, but this is a common problem with kids who have ADD. It sounds like a particularly difficult problem with your DS’s math class, where the teacher is inconsistent in requiring assignments to be handed in, and the noisy environment can prevent your DS from hearing the request to do so. It is common to have accommodations for this issue in 504 plans or IEPs. The teacher could be required, for example, to specifically and directly remind the student to hand in the work, rather than just calling out a general request to the (noisy) class.</p>

<p>My DS is also allowed to hand in homework late without penalty. (He has until the following Monday.) This is not an optimal accommodation, because the homework piles up and still has to be handed in. But if he has had a particularly difficult week for whatever reason, it gives him the weekend to catch up, and is a helpful backup.</p>

<p>Another very common provision in IEP plans is to have the student meet on a regular basis (every day, even, if that seems necessary) with someone designated to help students with organizational problems. Although my son does not use my service, it is provided in his school by a Learning Specialist. In some schools, this service is provided in what is called a Resource Room. Ideally, the learning specialist or resource room person will be a go-between with the student and teacher if there are issues like homework not being handed in, even though the student did the work. </p>

<p>We are fortunate that the administration (specifically, the Counseling Department) and many of the teachers in DS’s school are very willing to work with students to help them succeed. These administrators and teachers focus on the substance of the students’ work, rather than penalizing them when they are trying their best but have difficulty with organizational skills. I try to reciprocate by not requesting accommodations that put an undue burden on teachers. This has really not been problem; it is just not that difficult for a teacher to make sure that the student sits in the front of the class, or to put the assignments in writing in an accessible manner, or to give the student an extension of time when he or she really needs it. (This can be a very real problem, though, with teachers who don’t “believe” in ADD, and think students with organizational problems are simply lazy. Believe me, I have run into that, especially when DS was in elementary school.)</p>

<p>Is your DS in a public school? If so, there should be someone in the school administration who is in charge of Section 504 plans or IEPs; it’s required by federal law. (I believe it is also required for private schools, but my kid is in a public school, so I am not up on that issue.) Find out who that person is (as another poster said, it may be the Special Ed person), and talk to him or her. If there is no one in your DS’s school who deals with these issues, contact the Superintendent’s office; maybe it is handled at that level in your district.</p>

<p>I have to say, 504 Plans and IEPs do not always work in every case. For various complicated reasons, DS failed AP Spanish this past semester. The teacher and the administration did agree, at least, to let him drop the class and substitute an elective for this semester. But we will have to deal with that F on his transcript come college-application time!</p>

<p>If you want to look into 504 Plans and IEPs, there is quite a bit of information online. A couple good places to start are Wrightslaw.com and UniquelyGifted.org.</p>

<p>One last point! Colleges are also required to accommodate students. I think that there is much more of an onus on the student to advocate for him- or herself, and some colleges are better than others at dealing with students that are in need of accommodations and services, but the services are definitely there.</p>

<p>And finally, a P.S. -- I expect that some posters might object that accommodating students is just mollycoddling, and that the student should just be forced to get his or her act together. From my perspective, this is not what is going on. I have two sons, one a college freshman who has no organizational problems whatsoever, and the other a high school junior, the one I have been talking about in this post who has ADD (among other problems). Both my sons are, I believe, equally bright, based on things like their (extremely high) standardized test scores. Both kids have had teachers who thought my older son was a great student but that my younger son just didn't try or didn't care. Ironically, though, I can see that my younger son, due to his ADD and other issues, works MUCH, MUCH harder than my older son! My older son dashes off his work and gets great grades, while my younger son struggles for hours to stay focused, and could be penalized -- but for his 504 Plan -- if he didn't get all the work done on schedule. And because teachers sometimes can't (or won't) see him struggling, he sometimes gets stuck with the lazy-kid label. (Fortunately, though, that is not as much a problem in high school as it was in elementary school.)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Just got off the phone with the principal. He's given me a phone number to call to get my son tested. I've called and left a message--they're closed on Friday afternoons.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>As to the testing – your DS’s ADD diagnosis alone should be enough to qualify him for a 504 plan with some helpful accommodations, without any further testing. </p>

<p>Further testing could be very helpful, though, to diagnose any additional problems. I would just suggest, though, that before agreeing to use the tester recommended by the school, you should check that person's qualifications. What you want is a good neuropsychologist who has experience testing children who are having difficulties in school. </p>

<p>Even if the school-recommended tester seems qualified, you might want to at least consider having the testing done instead by someone whom you choose and hire. That can be expensive, but it might be covered by your insurance. (Ours covered about half of it.) </p>

<p>As Singersmom07 mentioned, you will have a lot of options if you live in or near a metropolitan area. You can get specific recommendations on a listserv such as the GT-Special</a> Mailing List.</p>

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<p>Make sure your son, in trying to make his decision, realizes the difference in a D+ that is the result of missed assignments and a D+ that is from not understanding the material. I think that kids can take the denial of a place in an upper level course personally and interpret it to mean that they aren't cut out for that level of work. When my son was in high school he and two other kids were cut from an AP class, that they had been scheduled for and which had been approved by the guidance counselor, because of space considerations (but of course that wasn't the official explanation). The kids went through a bit of self doubt before figuring out what was going on. One kid got another teacher to fight for her, I had to personally get involved to help my son, and I think the third student decided to go along with the decision.</p>

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<p>SodiumFree -- I am amazed at the excellent plan that your school is implementing for your S. Bravo! </p>

<p>OP -- I agree with the posters who are urging your son to keep taking the higher level class (since he is clearly capable of doing the higher level work) and focusing on organizational issues with support from the school if possible. It is very common for schools to see LD kids with organizational issues, and there are some very common, accepted ways to help kids with these, although every accomodation and support plan is tailored to the individual kid. On the bright side, once a kid begins to learn some organization skills, and sees how well the new skills facilitate doing well in school and reducing anxiety, he may begin to develop techniques that will make his life easier inside and outside of school. The seating change and finding a way to have the teacher OK the son's planner to be sure the assignments and due dates are recorded there would be a great start if the teacher won't -- short of being required by a 504 plan -- provide the assignments in writing or on line.</p>

<p>Make sure that the testing report you receive includes a concrete list of the specific things that should be done to accommodate your son and why. If it affordable for you, sometimes it is helpful to have testing done by an outside psychologist who is not affiliated with the school district, so the only agenda will be helping your son. (Although I certainly don't mean to impugn school-employed psychologists!)</p>

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<p>Agree with staying in higher level courses and outside testing. First, getting in line for school testing was too long and a bright student merely getting "c/d" was way down the list. It was expensive but worth it. Pediatrician gave the referral. The outside tester did give specifics, and in our case one of them was to have a portable computer so S1 could type instead of write. Apparently different neuro pathways are used. When you type well you are not looking at the hands/paper and transferring your focus point. Make sure you get a customized recommendation. These issues can be very individualized. </p>

<p>Make sure he does not feel like a failure if he needs some accommodation. It is like needing eyeglasses to see. No one would call him stupid or lazy if he needed glasses to get his work done. Also, if he does not get help, he may as likely not do well in regular class either. If you are dyslexic, it does not mater if you are reading Dick and Jane or Einsteins theory of relativity, the same scramble happens. However, if you are bright and have the right tools, you understand Einstein and are bored with Dick and Jane. It is a point that is sometimes hard for the school to get. .</p>

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<p>
[quote]
This is to prevent the scenario where he misses the assignment (either altogether, or some important details) when the teacher orally tells the class what the homework is as they are all packing up and heading out the door!

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Okay, have you bugged my home? This is almost verbatim what my son says happens. He has taken to writing on his hand (when he does hear) on his way out the door with his packed up things.</p>

<p>I was one of those people who didn't believe in ADD. My disbelief prevented me from addressing his issues all these years. This conversation reminds me that I actually had DS's hearing tested when he was in third (or was it second--he had the same teacher both years) grade because the teacher said he wouldn't pay attention to her and he said he didn't hear her (again, a noisy environment in an "open school" in a combined 2/3 class). He had the best hearing of anyone the facility had ever tested. </p>

<p>We talked about boys' brain development and the teacher started using some strategies (clapping loudly, calling out names) to break through the background noise and get his attention. He was also allowed to read or play on the computer when he was done with his work so as not to disturb others. In first grade he was allowed to diddle a toy helicopter eraser below his desktop when he was finished with his work so as to not distract those who were not done. </p>

<p>Thank you, thank you, for your long post, LowSodium. That must have taken a lot of time--it brought me to tears.</p>

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<p>Ridiculous.</p>

<p>Son took AP physics last year (an easy A for him) and is taking Intro to Calculus this year. He did not need calc for AP physics so obviously your son does not either. I often wonder who makes the rules!</p>

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<p>Re: SodiumFree's awesome post- one caveat, colleges may be required to aid LD kids, BUT the definition of who gets help changes. Throughout K-12 it is based on the premise that the kid needs to be aided to work to their POTENTIAL. In our UC DD who had extra time for all timed tests with a 30 point processing deficit has not received any adjustments because she does not test below the equivalent of 80IQ points. </p>

<p>In university the kid has to perform without accommodations below average- the catch 22 is that DD would probably not have been 4.0UW, AP scholar, great SAT without accommodations, she would have been 10-20% lower as she did not finish the SAT even with extra time (but her score with extra time was in the same range as her sisters who don't need extra time- so she did not get an extra boost, just an appropriate boost)</p>

<p>DD has had to pursue undergrad and grad school goals with NO ACCOMMODATIONS, so don't bank on that. I do hear that some private LACs will accommodate more readily so do check those university options.</p>

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<p>Navigating the waters of HS politics is never easy, in your dealings with the school try to keep your goal in mind- if you goal is to do the best for your child then try to ignore the injustices, make no effort to fix the system or point out it's problems as you will not get any brownie points for this :D</p>

<p>I agree with the people above, if their system says it is all or nothing, you son has to make the choice of all or nothing, which is better for him. It sounds to me like he is capable of the work, so I would try for all with some sort of adjustment- like he turns in his work every day, the front row seat idea is great.</p>

<p>If he is able to do the work and just needs help with organisation then think how much worse things could be in a class that is boring to him, he may really tune out there; the big issue I see in changing out of the advanced program is the change in friends and that influence.</p>

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<p>Somemom - No brownie points? Yes, of course, you are right. Point taken.</p>

<p>DS is now home and I have shared much of this thread with him. He was completely jazzed a the idea of having all his assignments on paper and a seat up front. He thinks those two things would make a big difference for him. He also feels, for the AH precalc class, he needs triple the time alloted. In all honesty, this may have as much to do with the tests as with the test taker--this has always been and issue in the past for lots of kids with this teacher's tests. (DD did have barely enough time on his tests but always felt badly for the large number who did not.) DS came home wanting to shake up his schedule a little more so as to be in "regular" classes with friends he found out are in those classes and if that doesn't work out, go with the "regular" classes as proposed by the school. I'll get him to take a look at this thread over the weekend and make a final decision. It's really on him to decide what to do and I think, if he reads all the great comments made here, he will make a reasonably informed decision.</p>

<p>Again, many many thanks to all who took the time to respond.</p>

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<p>Schmoomcgoo, I’m so glad that my post helped! I was actually worried that I got too carried away and that people would be rolling their eyes. But your original post really caught my attention because it reminded me so much of my own son, so I just start typing!</p>

<p>I have also wondered about the diagnosis of ADD, both in general and as applied to my son. Part of my uncertainty is that DS’s symptoms could be explained by another condition that I am certain he has. (That condition is Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome [DSPS]. Now there’s a diagnosis where I can see people’s eyes rolling in disbelief from a mile away! But that’s a topic for another thread.) Anyway, one of the things that convinced me of the validity of the diagnosis in general – that there really is such a thing as ADD – is that research has shown that the brains of children with ADD are different from those of kids without the disorder. (See, e.g., this article.) To me that is strong evidence that this is a real condition, and not a character defect!</p>

<p>As to whether my own son has ADD, one of the things that convinced me was reading the book Driven to Distraction by Edward Hallowell. The book includes case studies of real people (with their names changed), and so many of them reminded me so much of my son. (Like your son having the same difficulties as mine with teachers giving out the assignment orally as everyone’s heading out the door. By the way, my son has also used the write-the-assignment-on-his-hand technique!) </p>

<p>It also helps, of course, that the professionals who have evaluated DS over the years have all been in agreement on this diagnosis. He was first evaluated in third grade, at the suggestion of a caring teacher; that is when he was first diagnosed with ADD. In order to maintain his 504 accommodations, he has been tested every three years since then. So this diagnosis has been confirmed by two neuropsychologists (we moved at one point and had to switch to a different professional), a psychiatrist (for when we tried medication last year), and a neurologist (recently, for another go at medication; the first time round, the side effects were too much for him). I know that there are those who think that the diagnosis is handed out too readily, but at some point I decided to trust the professionals whom I had worked so hard to find!</p>

<p>Anyway, as to somemom’s caveat as to accommodations – or the lack thereof – in college, I have to admit I’m not really knowledgeable about that. But I have been trying to get up to speed, since it is something we’ll have to deal with soon! I have heard and read that some schools are better than others. For example, Goucher College in Maryland was recommended by my son’s current neuropsychologist. Just earlier today I read an article, in The Center for Learning Disabilities’ newsletter, that talks about colleges that are attuned to and committed to working with students with learning difficulties. (See here). </p>

<p>As long as I’m here, I have a great resource to recommend: the blog[/url</a>] and websites ([url=<a href="http://neurolearning.com/%5DNeurolearning.com%5B/url">http://neurolearning.com/]Neurolearning.com[/url</a>] and [url=<a href="http://mislabeledchild.com/%5DMislabeledChild.com%5B/url%5D">http://mislabeledchild.com/]MislabeledChild.com</a>) of Drs. Fernette and Brock Eide. If by any chance you happen to be in the Seattle area, I would strongly recommend that your son by evaluated by the Eides. I know of people who have traveled from the East Coast for this purpose. I have even considered it, but the expense was too daunting. I met the Eides a couple years ago, when they came to my older son’s school to speak, and I was very impressed by them. In addition to being very knowledgeable, they are also very kind and insightful.</p>

<p>One last thing: extended time on tests – both standardized and regular classroom tests -- is a common (maybe the most common) 504 and IEP accommodation. My son gets time-and-a-half, but I know of kids in his school who get double time. It has helped my son a lot. It’s also interesting to compare him with my other son, since they have taken some of the same tests. For example, they both took the New York State Regents Exam in Biology (actually at the same time, because my older son did not take Biology until he was a junior), and got the exact same score. My older son never considers that my younger son has an unfair advantage with the extra time, because he (older son) would simply never use that time. But younger son uses every minute of it! I figure it just gives him the time he needs to show what he knows. As Singersmon07 pointed out, extended time, and other accommodations, are like eyeglasses for kids whose vision is not perfect. With eyeglasses, those kids can see as well as anyone else. With some simple accommodations, kids with learning differences can show the world what they know.</p>