Help, daughter, graduated Princeton 09, now wants to be a doctor

Parents Forum
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<p>Hello everyone!</p>

<p>Any old timers out there? If there are, you may remember me and my red-headed daughter. Well, she graduated from Princeton last June, majored in psych and neuroscience, and took a job at a medical equipment company. She's been learning the clinical side of their business, and just recently has been attending some surgeries. More and more, she thinks she wants to become a doctor. A surgeon. Even a neurosurgeon.</p>

<p>This is something about which I know nothing. First, there are a couple of classes she would have to take to meet the pre-med requisites. Second, well, then there's medical school. I don't even know how long this takes or what it costs. And, third, cost is now an issue. Her undergrad was all paid for thanks to generous and foresighted grandparents. Medical school she will have to fund herself. Yikes.</p>

<p>So can anyone give me a quick scan of the territory? Are there any really big reasons why this is not a good idea? How much debt will she rack up? How long before she starts actually working? </p>

<p>Thank you all in advance. The usefulness of cc cannot be underestimated. And how are YOUR recent graduates doing?:)</p>

<p>(p.s. I also posted this in pre-med topics, but I thought I'd come straight to the parents in case that's a better way to get the kind of feedback I need. Ahem, Curmudgeon?)</p>

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<p>Okay, first of all, I really know very little about this. That said, if a person wants to be a doctor, and has the ability to get into med school and succeed there, I don’t think there is a financial downside, if that’s what you’re asking. Especially for someone relatively young. Although some types of doctors make less than others, I think over a lengthy career they almost all make back the med school investment (which is substantial). </p>

<p>Some people say that the health care bill or other changes will cut into doc’s salaries, but I don’t see it. I think doctors will always make a very good living.</p>

<p>Now, as I said, I know very little about this. But I do have a couple of colleagues who worked almost 10 years as engineers, hated it, worked out the numbers, and ended up going to med school in their early thirties. They seem to think it will pay off, both financially and in other less tangible ways.</p>

<p>Hopefully somebody who actually knows something abut this will answer now :)</p>

3

<p>

One of my majors is neuro and our introductory science classes (gen chem, organic chem, general physics, calculus, stats, molecular bio) all cover the requirements for med school. Although I am not a pre-med student I was told when I declared my major that it covered all the pre-health requirements if I ever choose that field.</p>

<p>Second, Med school IS really expensive but most med students pay for it through loans. It will take your daughter 4 years to complete med school and then she will move on to Residency. Residencies are paid (but not a lot) and if she chooses neurosurgery, hers will be long! But of course neurosurgery is a very well-paid field that is always in demand.</p>

<p>Third, you should know the application process for applying to med school takes a while so until then I’m assuming she will continue at her present job and still has time to think over her decision. </p>

<p>Also, please don’t fret about specialties (like neurosurgery) right now because Med students choosing specialties are similar to Freshmen choosing majors in college - they typically come in thinking one thing and it changes a lot. </p>

<p>Good luck to your daughter!</p>

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<p>Hey Alu,</p>

<p>I think that is great! Good luck to our little red haired girl :slight_smile:
Can’t give you much help on this cos Chicky’s going to law school.</p>

<p>If she does not have all of the pre-reqs, I would recommend having her looking into doing a post bac</p>

<p>[Postbaccalaureate</a> Premedical Programs - Search](<a href=“http://services.aamc.org/postbac/]Postbaccalaureate”>http://services.aamc.org/postbac/)</p>

<p>[Admissions</a> | Columbia Postbac Premed](<a href=“http://www.gs.columbia.edu/postbac/admissions]Admissions”>Postbac Premed Program Admissions | School of General Studies)</p>

<p>I would also recommend checking out the pre-med board. I am quite sure that some of the doctors in the house and CC faithful who are parents of med students will chime in and answer whatever questions you have.</p>

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<p>nephew had to apply three years, accepted 3rd year, matriculated to med school, 2010.
Sister says that the private medical schools are cheaper than the public schools because of their fatter endowments. She estimates $60K/year minimum at a public.</p>

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<p>D is not interested in med school, but she got an email from Columbia regarding their post bach program the other day (sybbie’s link). It sounds like a really good program, and it is possible that they might even have financial aid - I know a young man who started a second bachelor program at Columbia this year ('10 grad) & it’s completely paid for - many schools do not provide grants for PB or 2nd bach, but since some do it’s worth trying to find those!</p>

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<p>$60,000 tuition only.</p>

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<p>I’m not sure about cost… California has 5 public medical schools and it’s difficult to find out what tuition for medical school is at any one of them. Looking around online, I think I found that tuition and fees are $30,781 at UCSF (an extra 12K or so for out of state students).</p>

<p>Harvard’s tuition for med school is $45,000. There’s also another 3K in fees before you add in the cost of books, supplies (how much is good stethoscope?) and, oh yeah, living expenses. </p>

<p>Med school is 4 years, and you don’t get summers off to make money. Internship and residency years pay very poorly, but at least you can defer your student loans then. But only if they’re official student loans. Typically, students will avoid certain types of medicine (pediatrics, internal medicine) that are lower paying if they have crippling amounts of debt to repay. You don’t want to be in that situation! </p>

<p>Do lots of research, be smart in where you’re applying, and cross your fingers about getting in!</p>

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<p>Here are the links if you’re curious:</p>

<p>[Harvard</a> Medical School: Costs](<a href=“http://hms.harvard.edu/admissions/default.asp?page=costs]Harvard”>http://hms.harvard.edu/admissions/default.asp?page=costs)</p>

<p>[Student</a> Budget | UCSF Student Financial Aid](<a href=“http://finaid.ucsf.edu/application-process/student-budget]Student”>Student Budget | UCSF Student Financial Services)</p>

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<p>Medical school is 4 years. My information is old from when I went through, but don’t think it has changed all that much. Generally the first two years are classroom work. The summer after first year may be ‘off’ and potentially can earn some money. The third year and 4th year are clinical work in the hospitals doing different ‘rotations’ through different specialties and they are all year round starting in June immediately after the end of 2nd year (hence not able to work). Tuition and expenses are available on websites. Books and supplies are not cheap. Also, in the 4th year, one spends a fair amount of money flying around the country for residency interviews which are required, not optional. </p>

<p>Would strongly encourage state med school option if self funding. Also have MD/PhD programs (MSTP, Medical Scientist Training Program) which are generally paid for by the school. Also, the military used to have pretty generous programs where they would pay for your school if you indentured yourself to them afterwards for a few years. Its not an unreasonable program, and the military unfortunately always needs neurosurgeons (see: wars) </p>

<p>Residency (int med, general surgery, pediatrics, OB/gyn) after med school ranges from 3-5 years with basic pay (much less than minimum wage on per/hr basis). If you want to subspecialize, one does a fellowship, also with basic pay (cardiology, gastroenterology, transplant surgery, Cardiac surgery, pediatric nephrologist, high risk OB etc) is another 2+ years after that. There are hybrid programs like neurosurgery which is generally 1-2 years of general surgery followed 5 or so years of neurosurgery training. People sometimes do research in there somewhere in addition :).</p>

<p>You can PM me if you want to know about some salary ranges in terms of looking at loan repayment options. I can tell you my 80K loan back in the 80’s was 120K+ by the time I started repaying after finishing my fellowship in the 90’s and started my first real ‘job’ at age 35. I looked at it as a small mortgage, and while it was a pain, it was not crippling. The difficulty is in paying off this money while having a very late start in retirement funding, college savings, and a real mortgage.</p>

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<p>Well, I just wanted to say “hello.” (one old-timer to another)</p>

<p>I can’t add all that much and nothing at all current :). But I will say that my ex-H decided to pursue medicine a couple of years after getting his Harvard undergrad. He fought his way into UC Berkeley, not in any degree program, but to take the missing coursework he would need in the sciences. Did that in a couple (few?) semesters (who remembers? I’m <em>old</em>). Went on to a top medical school; thence to private practice and teaching med school as well. </p>

<p>Can be done. Is a long haul.</p>

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<p>It IS a long haul… but there is nothing longer than spending your 40’s working in a field you hate because you hadn’t figured out what you loved in your '20s.</p>

<p>So I say look with your eyes open but don’t let either age, time, or potential debt stand in your way.</p>

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<p>

</p>

<p>I know plenty of physicians in their middle years who do not love what they do. Entering medicine, vs other areas, in your 20’s does not make one immune from the fact that it is impossible to know how one will feel about their chosen line of work after the wear and tear of 20 years of toiling in it. In fact, I would make the argument that those entering medicine have less of an idea about how the medical life really is, than in many other fields. It’s much easier to romanticize being a doctor than it is, say, an accountant.</p>

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<p>UCLA med school costs (which will probably be similar to the other UC med schools)</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.medstudent.ucla.edu/offices/fao/budget.cfm[/url]”>http://www.medstudent.ucla.edu/offices/fao/budget.cfm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>COA runs about $55k per year for instate. </p>

<p>Books for med school are VERY expensive. A student can easily spend $9k+ on med school books alone.</p>

<p>As for pre-reqs for med school.</p>

<p>Your D may already have some/most of the pre-reqs for med school. Did she take two semesters of Organic Chemistry (not the ones for non-majors)? Did she take two semesters of general bio and general chem (again, not the ones for non-majors). Did she take Physics? Calculus? </p>

<p>If your D used AP credits for some of these classes, she may have to take the next levels.</p>

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<p>Physician here. Your D will need to take the MCAT, she needs to be sure she has the prerequisites and letters of recommendation, probably from her Princeton professors. Don’t worry about her being out of college already, this sounds like a more mature decision for her. Hopefully she had stellar grades in college. Her best bets for admissions will be in her home state, even private schools usually get some state funding and take more instate students. She should not worry about getting into a prestigious school, just to get in is an accomplishment. Her Princeton mentors/advisor would be people for her to contact with their thoughts on where she may be competitive.</p>

<p>Disclaimer- the following is based on memeory and not meant to be complete/totally accurate- just a general idea.</p>

<p>Medical school is 4 years. The first two are the basic science years with some clinical exposure. Courses include anatomy (eg gross, neuro, developmental, histology), biochemistry, physiology, pharmacology, microbiology, pathology, physical diagnosis and others. The clinical two years include hospital rotations in internal medicine and subspecialties, pediatrics, general and subspecialty surgery, psychiatry, obstetrics, gynecology, anesthesiology and outpatient care. Typically students get to choose electives their 4th year. There will be national tests of knowledge, the exact ones depend on the school. Tuition is paid for 4 years. She will discover which field she most likes and then decide which specialty to actually pursue.</p>

<p>Residency follows medical school. There is a matching program that involves students making a ranked list of specialty programs they would like (after visiting them and having interviews during vacation time taken during the school year) and everyone in the country finding where they placed on a day in March. Residencies start July first and run for a 12 month year, ending the last day of June for 3-5 and more years , depending on the specialty chosen. Not sure- but at least 2 weeks vacation per year likely. She can count on working- being “on call” for holidays, not every one every year, but she is likely to have hit them all before she finishes. Most states need a completed first year of residency for licensure, plus passing all parts of a national test. Residents are paid while doing the work. The salary will be high enough to pay her living expenses and probably to start paying off any loans.</p>

<p>After residency a physician goes into practice. Usually there is also a specialty board one can take to become “board certified”. Therefore most physicians in practice are in their 30’s when they begin. With such a long process and so many hours spent physicians need to be in it because they like it, not just to make a good living- there are easier ways to get rich.</p>

<p>For those who like it it is most definitely worth the years spent. It is a lifetime lifestyle, not a job one leaves behind at the office. If she is interested she should definitely go for it now. There is time in medical school for her to change her mind about her specialty as she learns more about the various options. Do not worry about the time or expenses, your D will eventually pay off any loans. She also has a current job and so is ahead of many. Most women in medicine find time for marriage and family.</p>

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<p>I followed a path similar to your daughter’s.
In the first year after graduating from college (I guess she’s in her second), I decided I wanted to work in the mental health field and gradually became convinced that I should approach it via medical school.</p>

<p>I had NO pre-med courses. However, truthfully, the basic requirements are not extensive. I had to take biology, chemistry, physics, and organic chemistry. I was able to fit in bio, chem, and physics in extension school classes at the school I’d graduated from (I was still living in town and working for the university) while working part-time during the day. That took one school year. (I made my decision in the summer time and was able to start in the fall term, so it took one school year to knock out those courses.) My organic chem class was a full-time endeavor during a summer session.</p>

<p>Having completed these courses, I was able to sit for the MCAT and complete my applications. I am not sure whether I worked with the med school advisors at my undergraduate institution–I think I didn’t, because I’d left town by then. Although I believe I did arrange to get a letter of recommendation from the pre-med advisor, who, luckily had been the master of my house so he knew who I was.</p>

<p>The application process takes place in the fall of the year prior to matriculation (usually the undergraduate student is a senior in college), so I had a year to work full-time and save up some money. I lived with my parents that year and earned what I could. I also took a math class because there were some med schools that required one–they didn’t need to see it on the application; they just wanted you to have taken it by the time you got there, and it wasn’t needed on the MCAT. (In the end, I went to a school that didn’t require math.)</p>

<p>As it happens, my parents were able to help with tuition (it was ~$8K or so…this was the stone age) and I got married right before starting med school so my husband helped with living expenses.</p>

<p>All this to say…it’s not impossible or unheard of, and although a formal post-bac program certainly is helpful with administrative matters, it may not be necessary. I think coming out of Princeton (with a good record, I assume?) will be helpful.</p>

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<p>Hi alumother!
Long time, no see! Congrats on your dau’s graduation and employment. No small feats!!</p>

<p>A few quick questions-
How many premed (prereqs) did your daughter already take as part of her undergrad experience? I would guess with a neuroscience major she probably had at leas a bio and chem or 2 with the corresponding labs. A wuick look at wiki [Pre-medical</a> - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-medical]Pre-medical”>Pre-medical - Wikipedia) gives you a list of the general premed courses. Wiki talks about several schools that offer a post-baccalaureate program/route to med school which is exactly what your dau might need. Take a look at the AAMC [Postbaccalaureate</a> Premedical Programs - Search](<a href=“http://services.aamc.org/postbac/]Postbaccalaureate”>http://services.aamc.org/postbac/)</p>

<p>Does her current employer offer educational support? Will they pay or help pay for her to take any of these courses? One can hope…</p>

<p>Then its on the the MCAT’s, after the course requirements are met. Some med schools offer funding for very desirable students, but thats not like undergrad. And agreed, state med schools are more affordable. What state is she currently an official resident? Does she plan to stay there? </p>

<p>Lots of questions-- sorry. Good luck!</p>

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<p>Some notes:
-Shadowing during surgeries is great, and your D should continue that and document the hours.
-Your D will need a good amount of clinical experience as well (e.g., EMT, working/volunteering at a hospital WITH patient contact, etc)–this can likely be done on the weekends or off hours from work.
-Research experience is also helpful, especially for top tier schools. IIRC, Princeton requires a thesis (?), so if your D did a research thesis, that will probably help.
-Med school apps go through a central processing service (AMCAS for MD schools outside of TX, DO schools and TX schools have a different services)
-The process starts over a year before you actually enter med school–apps should generally be submitted as soon as AMCAS opens in, IIRC, June. Thus, given the time to obtain clinical experience, your D may not enter med school for 3 or more years.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>[Scripps</a> College : Post-Baccalaureate Premedical Program](<a href=“http://www.scrippscollege.edu/academics/postbac/index.php]Scripps”>http://www.scrippscollege.edu/academics/postbac/index.php)</p>

<p>Scripps’ program is much better established than Columbia’s, and cheaper, too. But, frankly, if all she needs is a couple of pre-reqs, she could just as well take them at a community college. She already has a a Princeton degree, and working experience, so the Post-Bac prestige isn’t going to help in the least. </p>

<p>Figure $250,000 for med school. Not-so-great salaries for the next seven years (8-9 for neurosurgery.) About $300,000+ debt by the time she starts making real money. (And woe for her if she starts a family in the interim.) You do it because you are driven to do so. And nothing else will satisfy. (A community college-educated nurse, who had the money for Princeton, but invested it instead, and then works steadily to age 50, will be financially ahead of the average doctor these days.)</p>

<p>Do it for love of it.</p>

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<p>Hey, Alum – nice to hear that your daughter is on to another great adventure. I know very little about medical school but I wanted to throw out a shout of solidarity. (I originally wrote “consolidarity” which actually seems more appropriate. :slight_smile: )</p>

<p>Like the offspring of so many of us old-timers here, my son is plodding through graduate/professional school and whole new subset of anxieties and triumphs, not the least of which is looking ahead to a worrisome job market and a mountain of debt. Most of his classmates (07 graduates) are in the same situation. They’re following their aspirations but it’s a long road to a meaningful income.</p>

<p>My son has a friend who went directly from highschool to medical school in Europe and now at 25 years old is a full fledged physician earning an adult salary. He’s thinking of doing advanced specialty study in the US where he will be a full 10 years younger than most of the American doctors.</p>

<p>Nevertheless, no regrets from any of us for the fine liberal arts education. Maturity comes with a balance of risk and dreams.</p>