Help!!! Drexel bs-md or cornell che

Colleges and Universities A-Z Cornell University
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<p>DerrickSpa: good luck. I would caution you not to assume that everyone who drops out in premed at Cornell dropped out because they couldn’t get a good GPA. A lot of students, maybe even half, simply change their minds and voluntarily switch to other fields. As you will soon learn, medicine is a broken system and there will be many bumps in the years ahead.</p>

<p>Cue7: A study a few years ago found that graduates of Howard and Meharry medical schools are subject to formal disciplinary action at 10x the rate of graduates from other US medical schools. This was very controversial and much of the discourse was centered around the issue of race since these are historically-black colleges. Personally, I don’t think race was the issue but rather the admissions standards. I don’t think it was a coincidence that these two medical schools had the lowest GPA/MCAT averages of any US med school by far, comparable with the stats of Caribbean schools. </p>

<p>It is really hard to do a study looking to correlate GPA/MCAT with physician performance mainly because there is 7-11 years between when you take the MCAT and when you become an attending. A lot can happen in between. However, if someone does a retrospective study, it wouldn’t surprise me to see, on average, physicians with lower college GPA/MCAT scores being subject to more disciplinary actions. And I argue simply looking at disciplinary actions/probation is not a sensitive indicator of physician performance just like graduation rate is not a sensitive indicator of undergrad performance. You can screw up a lot before being placed on probation as a physician just like you can have a 2.0 GPA and still graduate.</p>

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<p>Norcalguy:</p>

<p>I guess I think the term “doctor” is too ambiguous and broad to determine more definite thresholds. I agree that the Caribbean schools often place students into “lesser” medical paths, and have a lower rate of success with their students. </p>

<p>At the same time, while medicine is a very demanding profession, it’s quite stratified as well. Many students who end up doing family med or internal med (and various subspecialties after) don’t really need exceptionally high thresholds for entry. For my family physician, I don’t really care if the doctor went to Harvard or St. George’s - there are other traits I’m much more interested in that top schools don’t select for (physician bedside manner and approach, for example).</p>

<p>Finally, a 70-75% chance for a lifetime of strong earnings against 200k debt doesn’t seem that bad, especially when you find kids going to law schools or business schools that have maybe half such a rate of success. I’ve often heard the 3.4/30 rule or the fact that even certain US medical schools offer sub-par training. I guess all of that kind of makes me shrug indifferently - perhaps the high achieving kids continue to do very well (and avoid disciplinary action) down the line, but, in general, once you enter - the path in medical school (tough classes, demanding rotations, Boards, etc.) is rigorous enough. </p>

<p>On that note - do you refuse to go to DOs as well, since most DO schools accept students with sub-30 MCATs and lower GPAs? </p>

<p>Medicine is a wonderful profession, it’s taken its hits of late (and will take more in the future), but the strange, sometimes arbitrary barriers to the point of entry are confusing to me. Doctors need to be held to high standards, but I’m curious about some of the strange, needlessly high reqs US schools set up based on the low supply of US medical school seats. </p>

<p>On a related note, unless I’m mistaken, given the small number of med school spots, I thought medicine was somewhat less hierarchical than, say, law or business. Yes, students at schools with sky high gpa/mcat reqs (Harvard, Columbia, UChicago, Duke, whatever), produce very capable doctors, but as there are few spots and high demand, all US schools produce good doctors who can have successful careers. Yes, your chances of matching into derm or radiology are better from Harvard or Duke, but students at basically all US medical schools seem to do just fine.</p>

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<p>^Agree. And while Caribbean medical schools on average accept lower score students and provide them less opportunity, it doesn’t mean they can’t go out and become great doctors. The medical school one attends does not make the doctor - it’s only one facet of the whole picture. In the hospital I work, the list of residents and their medical school is listed so we can know who is who. I’ve seen a surprising number of Caribbean graduates, in specialties such as anesthesia, surgery, OBGYN, etc. I’ve worked with a few and they’ve proven themselves capable of doing their job. I think the stigma is still there, but they are constantly improving and are at the very least comparable to America’s lower tier medical schools at this point.</p>

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<p>DarkIce - yeah, I’m a bit surprised by Norcalguy’s comments about how you need a 3.4/30 to become a doctor and, if you DON’T have those numbers, you should find a different profession. This seems needlessly harsh to me. </p>

<p>Foreign-trained doctors and DOs (generally with stats lower than 3.4/30) make up a big, big chunk of physicians practicing in this country, and I’d imagine that most are good, solid health care providers. </p>

<p>Norcalguy, you may know this better than most - what % of new doctors hail from foreign med schools or have DOs below the 3.4/30 MCAT? I imagine it’s a good chunk of total physicians practicing. Would you not want any of these folks to be your physician in any capacity?</p>

<p>Again, the “3.4/30 or find a different profession” stance seems needlessly harsh.</p>

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<p>Have former students at both schools…their experiences with the two schools aren’t even close. Cornell offers the overall better quality of education and overall college experience.</p>

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<p>I said I didn’t want someone to be MY doctor if they couldn’t manage a 3.4 in college. It doesn’t mean they can’t be a competent physician or aren’t deserving of being a physician. Do you want a physician who was a B student? </p>

<p>We have students from many different medical schools who do audition rotations with us. These students come from all kinds of med schools (Caribbean schools, international medical schools, elite med schools, average US med schools, etc.). There is a huge difference in work ethic and in intelligence even at the med school level. The fact students from Caribbean schools and international medical schools often end up at worse residency programs only accentuates the gap by the time residency is finished.</p>

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<p>norcal</p>

<p>I find your arguments persuasive in this thread, though I wish OP the best with his choice.</p>

<p>One question – I know that my primary MD graduated from a US school (having googled him). How would you suggest that I respectfully ask to see his College and Med School Transcripts so that I can ascertain whether he he got A’s in all the Key Subjects? (GRIN).</p>

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<p>norcalguy, while I understand your position on wanting a smart doctor, there are many other factors that go into it. Example: You could have a brilliant problem solver who has test anxiety. He could be a 3.2 GPA student with a 27 MCAT, yet be one of the best doctors in his field for figuring out difficult cases. MCAT scores and GPAs are built to measure only a few skills that a competent doctor must possess. Furthermore, you have no idea what your doctor’s GPA is. Some of the most competent doctors who have ever treated you may have had GPAs and MCAT scores below your threshold, and you would have no idea.</p>

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<p>lol I don’t think there’s a tactful way to do that. </p>

<p>I’m just trying to dispel the old adage P=MD (implying that if you pass med school, you will be a great MD). There are great MD’s, average MD’s, and poor MD’s. People should do more research on their physicians instead of simply going to the nearest one.</p>

<p>We do have a physician shortage so every Caribbean graduate and every international medical graduate is needed. I am not implying that these graduates shouldn’t be doctors. However, as I expressed earlier, I don’t want them to be MY doctors. Whenever I refer a patient to a physician, they often ask me, “would you send your mother to Dr. so and so.” All things being equal, I would rather send my mother to a physician that went to med school at Harvard and trained at UCSF for internal medicine than a physician that went to St. George’s School of Medicine and trained at a random community hospital for internal medicine.</p>

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<p>You mean someone who doesn’t solve problems well under pressure? Exactly who I’d want as my physician (j/k)</p>

<p>You’re right, I don’t know GPA and MCAT scores of my physicians. But, I do know where they trained. That means nothing to outsiders because they don’t know the difference between hospitals. But, it means something to me. I know how different training is in a community hospital (which is where most Caribbean grads end up) and at a big academic hospital. The case load and complexity of cases are entirely different. 99% of the time, it doesn’t matter because 99% of sore throats are colds and 99% of headaches are just headaches. But, I want the physician who is going to recognize a retropharyngeal abscess as the cause of sore throat or who is going to recognize a brain tumor as the cause of headache. That’s what separates excellent physicians from average physicians from nurse practitioners.</p>

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<p>You’re right norcalguy…if I feel something SERIOUS is wrong with me, I will seek references and go to the best doctor I can find. I am just saying that the GPA or even the school they attended is not what makes someone the best doctor. For example, I had a dentist from UPenn (I chose her BECAUSE she went to UPenn) completely ruin my teeth during a routine filling, destroy a few of my nerve endings…and then when trying to fix it, she damaged two more teeth. I ended up going to another dentist from a state school who was able to fix her disaster. She wasn’t “better” for going to UPenn.</p>

<p>Also, your last comment “That’s what separates excellent physicians from average physicians from nurse practitioners” is offensive to nurse practitioners. You are assuming all nurse practitioners would be incapable of solving complex problems and treating a patient at a level comparable to even an average doctor, which is simply not true. There are excellent and average nurse practitioners just as there are excellent and average doctors. Having an MD after one’s name does not automatically make them the best possible provider. I’ve seen MANY examples in ER where experienced nurse practitioners have noticed symptoms or diagnosed illnesses that the doctor missed. Just last week I saw a doctor tell a man with a lump that it was just a cyst and he was fine, while the NP insisted it didn’t feel like a cyst and wanted an ultrasound. The guy consented to it and thanks to the NP they caught a cancerous mass much earlier than if the MD had had his way.</p>

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<p>Norcalguy, in one of your initial posts in this thread you said:</p>

<p>“If you can’t make it to med school out of Cornell (ie you can’t get a 3.4 at Cornell), you don’t belong in med school. You shouldn’t be a doctor. I have no problem telling HSers this because I don’t want people wasting their life pursuing something they are ill-equipped for. Not everyone can be a MD.”</p>

<p>Unless I’m mistaken, you don’t say that someone without 3.4/30 numbers shouldn’t be YOUR doctor, but A doctor - to anyone. You also state that, without these numbers, students will be “ill-equipped” to become doctors.</p>

<p>I think this is an overly high expectation for MDs. Medicine is a service profession, and the level of care needed varies based on the patient. Generally, as problems become more complex, I’d like to see doctors with significant experience in the given area. For most problems, however, the vast majority of physicians (many of whom did not achieve 3.4/30) can provide good care. </p>

<p>Again, you didn’t say someone without a 3.4/30 shouldn’t be YOUR doctor, you said A doctor - which is far, far too harsh a standard. Perhaps this person shouldn’t aspire to be a surgeon or dermatologist, but if this individual is not limited by specialty, areas of medicine are certainly still open to sub 3.4/30 performers. </p>

<p>In a later post, you asked:</p>

<p>“Do you want a physician who was a B student?”</p>

<p>Again - this depends. For most issues where risk is low and a wide array of physicians can handle the needs of the patient capably, a B student is just fine. </p>

<p>I’ve been lucky to know lots of physicians in a variety of capacities, and I’ve found the “when a physician messes up, people die” argument for sky-high MD requirements to be problematic. From what I know and have been told, given the layers of care and approach to care found in the States, determining causation can be difficult for most physicians as a group (outside of some specialties, like surgery, where again, the standards should be high). Accordingly, most physicians don’t need to be superhuman, go to Harvard, and have perfect stats. </p>

<p>Placing the 3.4/30 threshold for ALL physicians is absurdly high, and telling a high schooler that he/she shouldn’t be a physician without those numbers is poor (and bordering on malicious) advice.</p>

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<p>I tend to agree with Cu7’s point. GPA isn’t always as predictive of success in a profession, as is “judgement”. I’m sure that everyone has worked with people who through our interaction with them, prove themselves to be top notch. We are at times surprised to learn that the individual didn’t have a very good GPA. Auditory and visual memory are two key variables in attaining good academic grades. Judgement, task persistence, & thoroughness are most important in being successful in most professions.</p>

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<p>csdad - certainly, for some specialties, i want the professional to have it ALL - top grades, top education, great judgment, amazing thoroughness, etc. I’d like, for example, a cardiologist to possess as many of these traits as possible.</p>

<p>For “doctors” much more generally, I just don’t think the standard should be as high. Sure, a kid who has below a 3.4/30 might not be cut out to be a surgeon, but there are still areas of medicine open to this student. Again, norcalguy’s analysis seems needlessly harsh.</p>

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<p>I could care less about my doctor’s undergraduate credentials. I just want someone who was a top performer in medical school and that’s what should matter. I’d rather have a doctor with a 3.3 from Cornell and a perfect marks in low-ranked med school than a doctor who had a 4.0 from Cornell and barely made it through med school.</p>

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<p>Exactly Cu7–</p>

<p>…I too don’t want a brain surgeon who hasn’t proven themselves to have superior visual motor skills</p>

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<p>Thanks for all your help out there. This thread kind of went in all directions. I decided on Drexel because there is just way too much negative information coming from Cornell students about poor med school admissions rate. I have read at least a few thousand posts in the last week, and Cornell, at least according to the posts here and med school forums, has notoriously awful admission rates to medical school. No other college has so much negativity with med school admissions being posted. I just can’t believe that all the students posting poor results for Cornell and med school admissions are wrong.
Whatever, good luck to everybody with making your decision.</p>

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<p>^ My theory is OP is a ■■■■■, like the more obvious trolls who unsuccessfully attempted to dis Cornell pre-med last admissions season. Just my suspicion, as one can’t really know. Some trolls promoting hidden agendas have gotten better at disguising themselves in recent years. It’s hard (for me at least) to imagine anyone choosing Drexel over Cornell for any reason other than a big cost-of-attendance differential.</p>

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<p>If it’s a 7 year program, it’s actually something you can consider. You would miss out on flexibility and having an amazing undergraduate education, but on the other hand you are pretty much guaranteed to be a doctor if you can make it through. Taking 1 fewer year to become a doctor, and saving yourself all that trouble of applying to med schools, taking the mcats, and other pains of being a premed may be worth it to many individuals and I can totally understand that.</p>

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<p>The OP says that his own mother – an MD – can’t understand, or at least that she told him to go to Cornell.</p>

<p>From OPs first post:

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<p>This all assumes that he is not a ■■■■■, and while I have my suspicions, I concede that he may well be legitimate. I just can’t help but wonder.</p>

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<p>One thing I’ve learned from seeing patients is that you have to know when to walk away. The most you can do is provide the information but ultimately it is someone else’s decision to make. Just last week, I had a patient with history of stroke, really bad peripheral vascular disease requiring a bypass and amputation, who had a small heart attack in the hospital. We begged him to get a cardiac catheterization at the hospital as he likely has really bad coronary artery disease but he refused, citing that he did not believe that he had any vascular disease. You know, despite his history of stroke, vascular bypass, and heart attack. After 2 days of talking to him, I walked away. He’s probably going to go home and drop dead from a massive heart attack. But, that’s his decision to make.</p>

<p>DerickSpa has similarly made his decision. Whether he’s a ■■■■■ or just an irrational person, it’s futile to try to convince him further.</p>

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<p>Perhaps you didn’t read what was posted earlier. You still have to take the MCAT to stay in Drexel’s program. In fact, you need to get a 31. You have to maintain a 3.5 overall AND science GPA. And, trust me, you won’t meet any doctors who wish they had taken less time to get their MD. Most of us regret not having taken more time to smell the roses. Once you enter med school, you are locked into a 7-11 year course that will take you well into your 30’s. Take some time to do some travelling. Go out into the work force and save some money. Don’t rush things. Whether you end up practicing medicine for 40 vs. 38 years, it won’t make a difference in the long run. But, having 2 years of a true college experience vs. 4? That year you spent backpacking in Europe? That’s stuff you remember forever.</p>