Help find math heavy colleges for math head (jr)?

Chance Me / Match Me!
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He liked that Brown had an open curriculum and was known for having undergrad research. He didn’t really like the urban campus though.

He applied ED to Haverford. He wanted a LAC with strong math. He felt that LACs were stronger for undergrad research. He walked a very defined campus. He really likes the honor code at Haverford and that most freshmen have single dorms. One of his math mentors went to Haverford many years ago too.

You should look into the semester abroad for math in Budapest. It’s highly recommended, and most schools should offer it.

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Why does he need to take AP?

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Well - European schools for the most part do not accept the normal US high school diploma on its own as a prerequisite to study at a college or university. Most of them require additional grades, so for instance AP courses. Oxford requires 5 AP tests with a 5, however, if you have a SAT result over a certain number they’ll waive 2 APs, leaving the requirement at 3 AP tests wit a score of 5. Depending on what your school offers, that is easy or hard to supply.
(They would also accept the IB diploma, but, alas…)

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@AnnaW I sent you another DM

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You should look into Carnegie Mellon, they have high Putnam scores and brilliant student body!

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Please check with the Oxford college that he thinks he would like to apply to whether they would give out a conditional offer to a student who is self-studying for the APs solely on the basis of the MAT score and an interview.

Normally, conditional offers are given out to A level students from the UK, whose teachers have seen and taught and tested them intermittently over more than a year in year 12 and part of year 13 (11th and 12th grade in the US) and are able to predict final grades for them both on the strength of what they have seen and on their coursework which may count as part of the final grade, and who can also show GCSE grades from year 11 (10th grade in the US), which are sort of like AP tests for all the subjects taken in 9th and 10th grade.

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Unlike US colleges, who want to see the AP class, UK universities are perfectly happy with self studied AP exams - but they want to see the results, and if they can’t have results yet, want to see a competent prediction.

A math genius with an S in STEP 3 is one thing. But they are few and far between. It sounds like your kid might be the very talented, advanced and focused kid that are Oxford and Cambridge’s bread and butter, but he needs to show exam results. That’s what they base their decisions on. You need to find out whether the MAT (and maybe TSA, with philosophy?) will be enough.

Have him look at and choose three AP tests out of those: Calc BC, physics C, CS, biology, chemistry. German at a pinch. A very advanced, talented and focused and, most of all, highly motivated kid might be able to ace three of them in May of 22.

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Hi Tigerle

thank you for your input. I agree - he’ll have to figure out if this is actually feasible, we just discussed as much. He is writing to Oxford today to see if this idea of taking the AP tests after MAT and interviews is actually possible.
I agree with you: I am not sure he is a genius, just a very talented and interested kid. I am also not sure there is value in 'breaking it over the knee", as the Germans say. He ordered some AP material and took a look at it: calculus and CS shouldn’t be a problem in his eyes, but the third one is hard to determine. (Probably not physics, I’d say - he hasn’t even had that in school, I don’t think you can (or should) cram all the foundations in a few months. Not my decision to make, though.)

But, apart from that: The thing I admire and enjoy is his passion for math - personally I would be hesitant to put too much pressure on it. What I am trying to say is: everything he’s done up 'til now has been for fun and the love of learning, very much driven by his asking to do it. In the big picture I feel this delight and wonder should carry him until he is closer to deciding on a career. And I just don’t think he has enough exposure to the world to actually make that decision now.

So, all that to say: if its possible to apply to Oxford for him - yay! If it becomes this all consuming endeavor where you have to give up everything you enjoy (more math) - I am not so sure… I have met too many kids who, for whatever reason, have focused exclusively on ‘the ivies’, or ‘Harvard’ or ‘Stanford’ and lived their life in pursuit of this goal - which, as far as I can tell, wasn’t beneficial, no matter the outcome.
To me, that is what ‘fit’ means: a place where your emerging self fits right in. Not without stretching yourself and working for it, that has a lot of value for growth, don’t get me wrong - but careful of the line where you start to twist yourself according to an external mold, which might not actually be a reflection of your core - whatever that core may be, aren’t teenagers trying to find that out all the time anyway?

Well, just the thoughts that are going through my head as we navigate this fairly crazy system…

Happy Holidays!

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I think for Maths and Philosophy he’s going to need an English language AP. Tutors will want to know he can write well structured essays since that isn’t really tested in interviews. I’d think about that as a third AP to add to Calc BC and CS. I don’t think Physics is quite so important as students with an interest in philosophy won’t be so focused on applied math (though mechanics is part of UK math A levels and comes under Physics in the US).

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If philosophy develops into a strong secondary interest, these U.S. colleges may be worth additional consideration:

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Thank you @Twoin. He is looking at AP Psychology, as he has a psychology elective in school and thinks he can get his teacher to tutor him. Would that be sufficient in your eyes? He will ask that at university (We are just discussing this and he absolutely wants to try to take these three APs this year if he has to. Oy caramba - that would require a lot of planning and stress right now, as we will have to find a school that will let him take the tests somewhere drivable, but okay…)

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I looked at the websites for Mathematics and Philosophy at Oxford, and find that the one A level that is absolutely required is maths, so that’s calc BC for him. Further maths is recommended, but they know not everyone has access to that, and he has other ways to show his maths chops beyond calc.

While there are no fixed requirements for the other two A levels, I agree with @Twoin18 that another science and one subject that shows facility with essay writing should work.

I hear you about how lovely it is when teenagers find their passion, but if Oxford maths is what he wants, his intense love for and talent in math is required, but not sufficient. Fun won’t get him in. But I sense that you are ready to let him drive the bus on that.

The nice thing about Oxford, as opposed to Ivies and other top US colleges, is that once you’ve jumped through the hoops they’ve set you, you’re through. It’s not like Harvard where they set you hoops for four years in order to then admit half of their applicants on criteria they never say out loud and then reject 45 out of 50 of the rest of applicants.

Once an American student has brought three 5s on relevant AP tests and the required SAT score to the table, they’ll consider you. An excellent MAT and you’re almost guaranteed to progress to the interview. And then it’s on you to convince the maths and philosophy tutors they’ll want to teach you. It’s his kind of application.

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I would expect Psychology to be viewed as less “core” than math, science, English, history and foreign language. But you should ask Oxford about your particular circumstances. Pre-pandemic multiple UK universities did in person events in the US and I know Cambridge now does a few online events specifically for potential US applicants. Not sure what Oxford offers but you might consider going for the open days at the end of June.

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Hi @AnnaW. Building on @Twoin18’s comments, my D22 (we’re in the UK) says that A-level Psychology is not considered a “facilitating subject” (i.e., viewed as less academically rigorous by top UK universities). But I don’t know if they view AP Psychology the same way.

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Yes - he just wrote to them, asking as detailed as possible what he needs to do and which tests would be acceptable. As we would potentially need to travel fairly far to find testing, with no chance on retaking anything, he needs to know exactly if he is fulfilling the requirements.

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Thank you for your input and assistance @Tigerle . This is really a most helpful place, I am glad I found it.

He won’t actually have any math farther than calc if he attempts to take the three APs this year, as prepping three subjects on his own next to school and everything won’t allow him to do an extra math course (we just calculated the hours needed).

I am ready to along if that is what he wants, he seems very excited at the challenge. However, I would not push him on to this path myself and do worry it might be too much of putting all eggs into one basket.

Re: fun won’t get him in. I understand what you mean. Maybe the general question is how much ‘fun’ matters for a person’s overall development. (However, I feel the need to clarify the word fun, which, in the context I am using it, should maybe read as joy.) There can be a lot of joy in stretching your mind to grasp concepts and doing certain work, and I feel that certainly these are the times to explore this joy. Feeling passion is valuable in my eyes - and it can get stomped out, I’ve seen it happen.

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Oxbridge are pretty good at spotting their own- and for students who really do love their subject it is wonderful. Yes, they work fantastically hard- but it’s all in a subject that they love, with people who share that love. We know a fellow whose parents were genuinely anxious about sending him to do Natural Sciences at Cambridge this autumn- he’s always been an outlier in his schools (nothing bad- just never really ‘fit’ particularly well). Just saw him over the holidays, and he has never been happier. He has found his peers, he finds the work challenging but achievable and he is blooming. He finds it fun and satisfying.

I don’t want to be dismissive of the effort that it takes to self-study APs- but it may not be as bad as you fear. Collegekid1 self-studied for APs to meet her Oxford offer, and found that the study books really do take a semi-prepped kid (ie, have taken a relevant course) over the line. She did some pretty disciplined studying from the prep books (yep, studying to the test) over spring break, and nailed them. If he does well in English class, give him a practice test for both Lit & Lang to see which comes more easily to him (you will find some in the prep books- the public library has them).

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This is the list of “facilitating subjects”. Afaik, its not official any more, but no less real for that:

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Note that neither CS nor psychology are on it, though both are considered “helpful” for the respective courses in CS and psychology. Admission requirements for 2024 entry | University of Oxford

Note also that none of the joint philosophy schools require, recommend or even consider as helpful any specific subject for the philosophy side, merely for the joint school (ie maths, a modern language, etc) with the exception of philosophy and theology, which considers “a subject involving essay writing” helpful.

So, no point in shooting down any combination yet as long as it involves calc BC. Let’s hope that whoever your son has written to will commit to acceptable subject choices in writing. The priority is getting those three 5s.

OP, that is again the nice thing about Uk applications: while not as legalistic as German requirements, if they say that calc BC fulfills the minimum maths requirement as far as formal exam scores go, they mean it.

Beyond that, the options are more flexible. The most important “showcase” is the MAT, but again, if he’s the right kid for Oxford, preparing for that one is his kind of fun! I recall that he has done very well in some kind of math competition, forgive me for not scrolling back up, has done advanced math summer programs, is planning to do another, is running some kind of program in his high school. He can talk about all this in his “personal statement”, which is not like the common app essay in the US at all, but has to be about his chosen subjects, so yet another place to talk about both his love for and his achievements in math beyond calc.

And lastly, he can show what he can do directly, and talk about what he’s done since, in his interview, mid- senior year, 7 or 8 months beyond the AP test.

Don’t sweat the AP tests too much. I understand they’re a PITA to organise for you, but it’s just a few months from now that he’d have to focus on them. Again, if he’s right for Oxford and Oxford is right for him, they shouldn’t faze him at all.

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I can’t believe I forgot to mention CCS (College of Creative Studies) at UCSB. Do you already know of it? It’s a really incredible and unusual program, and it also seems to tick so many of your son’s boxes— in California, an intensive math education with a small group of peers and lots of mentoring from professors, emphasis on moving quickly from consuming knowledge to producing knowledge, access to graduate classes when you want them, very flexible school-wide requirements— you don’t have to do the same distribution requirements as other UCSB undergrads; a required senior thesis, emphasis on research— I’ve heard it described as graduate school for undergrads, and it reminded me a lot of Oxford, minus the tutoring ( but with very small classes instead.) They have a separate application, due in January, after you apply to UCSB in November. It was a great match for my math son, and he would definitely be pursuing it under other circumstances. They are very warm and welcoming, too. Here’s a link, but you should also reach out to them with any questions: http://ccs.math.ucsb.edu/ .

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