Help for first time poster

<p>There is a lot of good advice here and I can use a little! My daughter is a junior who has had a lot of great advantages and doesn't quite know how high to aim. We are an upper middle class black family. Husband and myself have undergrad and grad degrees from top Universities. She is our first headed to college.</p>

<p>Daughter attends a top private high school that sends many kids to top schools. She has done very well there academically but it's hard to tell exactly where she ranks. She is on the highest honor roll along with about 20% of her classmates.</p>

<p>She has great scores, 2280 SATs, 800, 750, 710 SAT IIs.</p>

<p>Her weak point is ECs compared to the kids on college confidential. She spent one term junior year in Spain. She plays some sports and was a jv captain. She does typical community service and has had 2 jobs that don't really relate to what she is interested in. She has received some book awards but that's about it.</p>

<p>She is very interested in Wharton and Princeton. We did not attend either one. Will she stand a much better chance at the comparable schools we did attend? I would love some thoughts.</p>

<p>Is she interested in the schools you attended? If so, why not have her apply to Wharton, Princeton and those two schools? As well, she should have some schools with higher acceptance rates as her safety or safe/match schools.</p>

<p>Some folks believe that you can't get into the most selective schools without uber-achievements, nationally prestigious accomplishments in an academic or other EC. Still, every year kids get in who don't have those particular credentials.</p>

<p>She should continue to be who she is, find schools in a range of selectivity that appeal to her, then craft the strongest application she can for each. "Strong" meaning essays which let her personality shine through, and that show how she fits the schools she is aiming for and how the schools fit her.</p>

<p>She has a lot going for her.</p>

<p>I would expect her school would have scattergrams and/or GCs who can show you the history of what type of success students from her school have had at Wharton and Princeton. Should give you a good idea of what her chances are, based on her stats. Nothing is ever a guaranteed accurate predictor, but the school's own history with students of similar stats can be a pretty good predictor.</p>

<p>You mention that she's had two jobs that "don't really relate to what she is interested in." That brings up two points -(1) job history is a nice plus even if it is not career-related. Shows a lot about a kid that she has worked; (2) she has a particular interest. What is it and how can that shine through in her applications?</p>

<p>Your daughter sounds very competitive. Remember, CC kids are not "normal", so just because your daughter has not cured cancer does not mean her ec's are bad. You might want to see this previous thread-sounds similar to your daughter. <a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=215455&highlight=affluent+urm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=215455&highlight=affluent+urm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The thing that makes my daughter unusual at her school is being an upper middle class URM. We are wondering if she gets less of the tip factor given to URMs because she has not suffered socioeconomically.</p>

<p>She has not had it as good as the boy in the post. We are not wealthy and will actually qualify for aid with the second, but for now they see an affluent private school kid.</p>

<p>jmmom, she would be fine with our schools but she has 2 firm first 2 choices.</p>

<p>According to AdOfficer, who posts fairly regularly on CC, a URM, even one who is not disadvantaged, gets more careful consideration because of the intangibles she has had to battle. Despite that, she must still be competitive within the applicants to have a chance.</p>

<p>Also, you should not think in terms of "tip factors." Let her be who she is -- and not some manufactured uber-kid -- and allow her activities/grades/scores speak for her. Most of all, however, she should be thinking of interesting essay topics that show her personality and passions. Those will be the tipping factors more than anything.</p>

<p>My son didin't cure cancer either, but his teachers and his GC loved him and he had fabulous references. He also has some unique interests. But they are truly, truly looking at The Whole Kid. </p>

<p>I agree that she should articulate What She Learned from Her Jobs, or make them somewhat meaningful in that way. Even if she was flipping burgers, I'm sure she learned something.</p>

<p>UCGrad, I think that colleges will consider that they are getting the best of both worlds when they admit your daughter: URM status (which still applies even if she's in a high economic demographic) and a sure-bet academically. </p>

<p>College admissions is -- for better or worse -- influenced by the organization's diversity goals. Admitting your daughter would up a school's African-American percentage even though she wouldn't "contribute" to the lowband socio-economic percentage. Now, would a school with a small admissions pool like to combine attributes -- e.g., an African-American, low family income, first generation college student, from Alaska who also plays the bassoon? Yes, but one good hook is still a good hook -- especially when it's backed by solid academic credentials, which it appears your daughter presents.</p>

<p>Colleges are all looking for interesting kids who do interesting things, so I'd second jmmom's comment that she needs to emphasize whatever her area of interest is in her essays and reinforce it in her recommendations and resume. A semester in Spain, work experience, just the experience of being an upper-middle class African American -- all of these can be powerful identifiers if they are handled sincerely and intellectually. </p>

<p>I'm sure she'll be a person of interest to Princeton and Wharton. Of course there are no guarantees so I hope that she has some good matches and at least one solid safety on her list. </p>

<p>I might also recommend that she look at some of the rural LACs which are hungering for academically qualified URMs. Her interest (I presume from her choice of Wharton) in an ultimate business career plus her involvement in sports would make her a good fit for schools like Amherst, Williams, Bowdoin, Middlebury, Hamilton, Kenyon just to name a few. These are also fairly selective but URMs are given special consideration and the quality of education on a par (in my opinion) with Penn, and in the case of Amherst and Williams, with Princeton.</p>

<p>Good luck and let us know how she does.</p>

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<p>That has been the experience at our local high school.</p>

<p>As to whether she will stand a better chance at the schools you attended, that would depend on how the schools handle the legacy issue.</p>

<p>Your description of your D doesn't really point out anything that seems to ring her chimes. I agree with momrath and jmmom that the essays could really be key. There are uber-applicants that get into the super-selective schools. But most of the kids accepted are very bright, very passionate, very engaged, and very lucky.</p>

<p>
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most of the kids accepted are very bright, very passionate, very engaged, and very lucky.

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</p>

<p>How very true!!</p>

<p>And very happy? :)</p>

<p>No, I'm the parent; it's the parents who are VeryHappy! The kids are . . . all those other "very"s!</p>

<p>I think her great scores, combined with her URM status give her excellent chances wherever she applies. Her ECs sound fine, she might be able to write something interesting about her experiences in Spain.</p>

<p>I think she's certainly justified in pursuing any university including Princeton or Harvard.</p>

<p>You haven't said anything about the range of colleges to which your D is looking to apply. If you do find a couple of colleges that you know she can get into and that she would love to attend, it can take the pressure off when it comes to putting applications into super-selective schools such as Wharton and Princeton.</p>

<p>UCGrandMay: Going by the admissions received by the school students, I have been interacting since 1998, I would expect your daughter to be one of the most competitive applicants for the most sought after colleges and universities. ECs will not prevent her from competiting the best! Wharton is a distinct possibility. Princeton, if she is very sure, should apply for the ED. As you are aware, there is an element of uncertainty in the admission process, and very few can predict, what the outcome will be:)</p>

<p>Thank you for all the help! My husband tonight said her safeties were Amherst and Middlebury. That's when it hit me that we are really in trouble!</p>

<p>My daughter is very interested in a career in international business. She had really thought she would go to a LAC, work for a few years and then get an MBA. Lately Wharton began looking attractive and it's a school we know little about. She is an avid reader and will not miss formally studying the classics. She would love a Brown education to study anything she loves and she thinks Wharton would be interesting and land her where she wants to go younger. She is a laid back kid who enjoys most everything.</p>

<p>She is not excited about the other schools offering good undergrad business but loves many LACs. </p>

<p>Matches so far are Wellesley and Vanderbilt. Are these matches?</p>

<p>We need some safeties. UCs are a possibility though she really wants to leave California for college.</p>

<p>All help much appreciated!</p>

<p>Hey UCgradmary, we have a junior daughter in a similar (stat's not THAT amazing!) situation; I'll have to follow your threads. I'm hoping a UC will work, but dad went to Columbia and thinks a lot of the Ivies, and I went to Howard which really changed my life. I'll be lurking!</p>

<p>
[quote]
My husband tonight said her safeties were Amherst and Middlebury.

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</p>

<p>I disagree with your husband that these schools are not a safety for anyone. I know during the 5 admissions cycles where I have participated on the CC boards, I can tell you first hand that there were students whose profiles I have read and were a lock years ago, have been waitlisted and rejected this year. Even as a URM, there is still the adage of those to whom much has been given, much is required. The net-net is your daughter is going to be evaluated in context of the opportunities she's had and how well she took advantage of those opportunities. Since admissions is a holistic process at many elite schools, even in URM admissions there is going to be diversity. It is just as important to bring low-income URM students and to learn from their experiences as it is to bring middle class/affluent URMs to schools to show them that yes, there are other URMs who are successful and you can be successful too.</p>

<p>What I have also noticed over the past years is that the URM pool is becoming more competitive with more URMs applying and those students stepping up their game taking more AP courses, bringing better scores, etc.</p>

<p>Will her SAT scores get her to committee? Absolutely. But as others have already stated, it is important to show who she is outside of these scores because colleges admit real flesh and blood people and build well rounded classes that are aligned with their institutional mission. </p>

<p>You state that your D is in the top 20% of the class. Your school profile is going to be very telling as far as the strenght of the curriculum at your school and how your D compares in context to her counter parts.</p>

<p>If you have access to the online version of the Journal on Blacks in Higher Education, I would recommend reading the following articles:</p>

<p>*Black Students Are Beginning to Seize the Early Admission Advantage
*
</p>

<p>At the nation's highest-ranked colleges and universities, the percentage of college-bound blacks who apply for early decision has always been far below the black percentage of the total applicant pool. The reason that college-bound blacks generally shun the binding commitments of the early admissions process is that their acceptance commitment cuts them off from the process of negotiating a favorable financial aid package from competing universities. </p>

<p>But JBHE statistics show that black students are now beginning to apply for early admission in much larger numbers.
In past years college-bound blacks have been much less likely than whites to seek early admission to the nation's highest-ranked colleges and universities. African Americans have avoided making the binding commitment to enroll if accepted because the rules of early decision eliminate their chances to "play the field" and consider a wide range of financial offers from competing universities. As a result, blacks have not been able to take advantage of the fact that early decision applicants generally achieve a much higher acceptance rate than applicants who choose to go the regular route. </p>

<p>For African Americans, the early decision process is assuming greater importance for the simple reason that early decision applications now make up a very large percentage of all admissions decisions. For example, this past winter Princeton University admitted 581 students under its binding early decision admissions program. This group is about one half of the freshman class that will enroll at Princeton this coming fall. </p>

<p>Blacks Who Applied for Early Admission in 2004</p>

<p>JBHE has surveyed the nation's highest-ranked colleges and universities to determine how the controversial issue of early admissions actually affects black access to higher education, particularly admissions to our most selective institutions. JBHE asked each of the nation's 25 highest-ranked universities and the 25 highest-ranked liberal arts colleges for this year's early admissions data. Some of the nation's highest-ranked institutions such as Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Amherst, Williams, Stanford, Dartmouth, Duke, and Columbia declined to participate in our survey. </p>

<p>We believe that the reason for this reluctance has to do with the fact that at most highly ranked colleges and universities there is only a very small trickle of black early decision applicants. Publication of this shortfall tends to hurt a school's reputation for its commitment to racial diversity. It is likely, although by no means certain, that universities and colleges missing from our statistics have a low percentage of black early applicants. </p>

<p>**For College-Bound Blacks, the Wait List Is Not the Place to Be </p>

<p>**</p>

<p>Increasingly, America's highly selective colleges and universities are using wait lists as a kind of enrollment insurance to make sure the schools fill their freshman classes with highly qualified students. But it turns out that for African Americans a notification of receiving wait-list status at most high-ranking colleges and universities is tantamount to a rejection letter.</p>

<p>In the Spring 2004 issue of JBHE we examined the status of African-American early admissions to the nation's highest-ranked colleges and universities. Our report found that blacks made up 4.7 percent of the early applicant pool. This is about 25 percent lower than the black percentage of all applicants at these colleges and universities in the regular admissions process. We also found that blacks were slightly more likely than whites to be offered admission during the early application process. </p>

<p>On page 6 of this issue of JBHE (Autumn 2004) we publish our annual survey of application, acceptance, and enrollment statistics for black first-year students at the nation's highest-ranked colleges and universities. </p>

<p>Now, for the first time, JBHE examines black admissions data for a different group of students — those assigned to the admissions waiting lists. Again our data is limited to the wait lists at the nation's highest-ranked universities and liberal arts colleges. </p>

<p>According to the National Association for College Admission Counseling, about 36 percent of all colleges and universities nationwide place some of their applicants on a waiting list. But nearly 75 percent of all highly selective colleges and universities have a wait list. </p>

<p>A wait list gives college admissions officers an insurance policy against unexpected low yield. College and university admissions offices construct sophisticated computer models based on the socioeconomic and demographic profile of their applicants. They also consider the college's past admissions statistics to predict how many of the students they accept in the current cycle will decide to enroll. They then adjust their acceptance numbers accordingly.</p>

<p>Another most recent topic for discussion has been the fact that most blacks in elite schools are the children of recent immigrants and not blacks with multi-generational roots in the U.S. and colleges are becoming more cognizant of this fact.</p>

<p>
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"Large Percentage of Black Students at U.S. Colleges and Graduate Schools Are Foreign Born

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</p>

<p>Roots & Race</p>

<p><a href="http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/090443.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/090443.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Data obtained by JBHE from the U.S. Census Bureau shows that a significant percentage of all black students in K-12 schools, in college, and in graduate school have parents that were not born in the United States. Moreover, a very large percentage of black college and graduate students are foreign born.</p>

<p>Here are the figures: In 2003, 13.6 percent of all black students in K-12 education in the United States had at least one parent who was born in a foreign country. This is almost double the rate for whites. Yet only 3.5 percent of black children in K-12 education in the United States were born outside this country. Still this is more than double the rate for whites.</p>

<p>The percentage of foreign-born blacks rises significantly when we examine enrollments at the college and graduate school level. For undergraduate black students in 2003, 22.2 percent had at least one parent born outside of the United States. More than 15 percent of all black undergraduate students enrolled at U.S. colleges and universities were born in a foreign land. This is four times the rate for whites. Less than 4 percent of white undergraduates were foreign born.</p>

<p>At the graduate level, 22.8 percent of the enrolled black students had one or both parents who were foreign born. For enrolled black graduate students, 16.5 percent, or one of every six, were born outside the U.S. For whites, 7.6 percent of all graduate students were foreign born."</p>

<p><a href="http://www.jbhe.com/latest/index012606.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.jbhe.com/latest/index012606.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>In June, a New York Times article raised a long-simmering issue: the origins and ancestry of Harvard's black students. The piece described the celebratory mood at a reunion of African-American Harvard alumni, who applauded Harvard's progress over the past three decades in enrolling larger numbers of black students. But it also noted that this mood was broken when "some speakers brought up the thorny issue of exactly who those black students are." The question arises because, even though in recent years 7 to 9 percent of Harvard's incoming freshmen (8.9 percent for the class of 2008) have been African Americans, some studies suggest that more than half of these students, and perhaps as many as two-thirds, are West Indian or African immigrants or their children. A substantial number also identify themselves as children of biracial couples.</p>

<p>The figures are inexact partly because they are unofficial; there are no official data, because the Harvard admissions office does not collect information on the ancestry of incoming freshmen. But a handful of scholars have explored the question, which remains a lively one. "I've been teaching courses in race and ethnicity here for 18 years, and almost every time I teach a class, this issue comes up," says professor of sociology Mary Waters. "It is very commonly discussed among black students at Harvard." Four years ago, Waters advised an honors thesis—which she calls "the best study I know of on the topic"—by one such student, Aisha Haynie '00, an African American whose family has long resided in the southern United States. Her research, published in the Journal of Public and International Affairs in 2002, tried to ascertain the provenance of Harvard's black undergraduates.</p>

<p>I believe that it is more important than ever that URM students included build a realistic list of schools. Run your numbers through the FA calculators, sit down and have the upfront talk with your kids and tell them what you realistically can afford to pay/borrow for their education (it makes not sense to have your kid apply to a 40k + school get admitted, then tell them that you cannot afford it or you are unwilling to pay for it). </p>

<p>Just as the majority of parents express the importance of FIT, as a parent I think this is very important for URM students. I think our kids need to know and need to feel comfortable in their own skin where ever they attend. They also need to be prepared for the fact that they will come across black classmates who have never attended school with anyone who wasn't black as well as white students who have never attended schools that had any people of color. I think it is important for your child to ask students if they feel the school does a good job of supporting and being supportive of students of color at the school. And finally, the hair thing is important, so unless your D is wearing her hair in braids, locs or natural, they need to talk to other young black women on how they handle hair maintenacne at some of these schools.</p>

<p>I think this time next year, your D will be going to someplace wonderful!! good luck and wishing you much success in your search.</p>

<p>I think Wellesley and Vanderbilt are matches for her, yes.</p>

<p>Amherst and Middleburty as safeties? LOL.</p>

<p>Since she is interested in undergrad business/international business, some schools to consider as match/safety or pure safety: Lehigh, American, GWU.</p>

<p>Also maybe of interest, Trinity College in Ct. Does not have the business degree, I don't think. Does have IR and Econ. An "ivy feel" campus, in the city.</p>

<p>Not a safety, but a place she might look into: Johns Hopkins... has always been uber-strong in International Relations; has recently added an undergrad business program (I forget, might lead to the MBA in 5 years or something).</p>

<p>Some of the schools I mention offer the urban location ala Wharton and the business/IR program. Lehigh is kind of a hybrid - more of a LAC feel small uni, not urban, beautiful campus. Her URM status would likely really appeal to such a school. So then she needs to ask how it will be for her at a place where there might not be quite the critical mass of African Americans that she would find at some other places.</p>