Help for Introverted Kid Who Doesn't Get the HS Awards

Parents Forum
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<p>On awards: I am absolutely of the opinion that a very few awards should be offered, and that they should be for absolute excellence. The Presidential Citations that are available for schools to offer are an excellent choice. </p>

<p>At one school where I taught, each teacher was allowed to nominate ONE and only one student (from their student load of about 150 for an "excellence" award, such as "excellence in biology" or "excellence in geometry." The list went to the principal, who made sure that no student got more than one award for excellence; if two teachers named the same student, they were asked to meet to decide which of them "got" the student and which changed to another student.</p>

<p>In addition, several more general awards were made: excellence on national exams in foreign languages, outside prizes, book awards, perfect attendance (only for one year), etc. These awards were given by asking all the students in each category to stand up at once and accept applause. </p>

<p>The entire ceremony took less than an hour.</p>

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<p>I don't like the idea of one teacher nominating one student- I have seen so much favoratism with some teachers (not the majority, but just enough to be noticiable)- for instance, we went to a junior high graduation today, where the Principal gave out two awards- The Principals Award-for general spirit, attitude, drive, etc- to a boy and a girl- the girl chosen was actually kind of mean to kids that were not like her (ethnicity-wise), but knew how to fake out the Principal...one very prestigious award given to someone that most kids really thought hurt the class, so the kids were all pretty disgusted by the Principals choice</p>

<p>At Ds' school- over the years, the staff has followed its typical favorites pattern, and seeing the same kids over and over win everything and get chosen for everything can get discourgaging. </p>

<p>The way I see it, is if only 5 kids are deserving of 90% of the awards of a grade of 60, then the teachers didn't do a very good job.</p>

<p>And, we discovered that often the kids chosen for parts, leadership roles, and more, were often the most "agreeable" students- didn't voice opinions, didn't share, just did exactly as they were told without question. Just followed orders. </p>

<p>THey usually get a rude awakening when they get to highschool, and everything isn't just handed to them and they have to work to get recognization. And those that worked hard in junior high for any kind of chance actually do much better in high school because they know how to.</p>

<p>I am just so grateful to be out of our junior high. My D can't wait to show what she is made of and what she has to offer and what she can do. And, to go back to the junior high and go "see what you missed, look at me now"</p>

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<p>Although I started this thread, I've been sitting back, reading. I am aghast about this pervasive and, as I view it, perverse, attitude about the need to award these kids for anything less than excellence. After working with students of all ages for a very long time, I've learned several things:</p>

<p>1) The idea that kids "learn" from failure is baloney. Unless they are given skills to take the failure, and THEN they turn it into a success, all they learn is that they are failures. Alternatively, kids do NOT learn from false success...awards or praise they receive for work they know is not the best. They learn that all they have to do is "keep up".</p>

<p>2) The laissez faire attitude that kids should just accept that "life isn't fair"...that they will ALWAYS spend their life working their butts off to excel just to be overlooked because they don't happen to know how to kiss arse is just malarkey. This isn't life, it shouldn't be life, and merely contributes to the sense of despair some of these kids already feel. The fact that other kids don't feel this despair doesn't mean that these kids are more mature, adept at handling adversity or anything else. It may mean that they are so out of touch with their own feelings that they can't connect with other human beings.</p>

<p>3) Kids should not be given awards because they are adept at social skills and have "social intelligence"...a concept that merely demeans them and reinforces the societal attitude that looks, athletics, and the ability to kiss arse are what get you ahead. These "socially intelligent" kids are rewarded each and every day in school with the pats on the back, the extra special attention, and other intangibles from teachers and classmates that the smart "quiet" kids never get. They don't need other awards and shouldn't receive them.</p>

<p>4) Children learn from success by working their butts off and BEING SUCCESSFUL! Basic psychologic research has shown that lessons learned are retained longer when the subject receives positive reinforcement than if avoidance behavior is mandated by negative reinforcement. You want these "quiet" kids to be successful in later life? Award success fairly and equitably...not by passing out "Book Awards" to the most popular. The two awards my daughter received, and is proud of, were her top 5 in the country in the National French Exam each of the last 5 years and the Cum Laude Society...both awards she worked her arse off for, and both awards that couldn't be denied her because the criteria are clear cut and published, even though she IS the quiet brainy type who never wants to "stick out".</p>

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<p>quiltguru-</p>

<p>My S#2 looks at this a few ways:</p>

<ul>
<li><p>All the awards that are given out to everyone he calls "self esteem" awards and does not attach much value to them.</p></li>
<li><p>In his school he sees that "social intelligence" is rewarded but does not want to play.</p></li>
<li><p>He responds by focusing on efforts that are objectively measured. He likes standardized tests and math in general. His view is that at least math is objective, either the answer is right or wrong.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>At the end of the day I am certain that he will do fine and find his place in the world. It is just unfortunate that his HS experience could not be more inspirational.</p>

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<p>Just mulling over this thread while sipping lukewarm coffee. After reading through these posts, I am reminded how choosing the right h.s. is as critical as choosing the right college: It's important to look beyond the basics beforehand and to absolutely, truly know what the longer-term trade-offs are going to be. It bears considering more than whatever school is nearby or considered to be a "good" school district, has good scores reported in the paper, or what seems fine for a 13-year-old (the time that the h.s. choice is generally made). It's clear that so many other variables end up affecting the quality of the experience, ones that are opaque or don't show themselves till near the end: how will this school fit when the kid is 17 (does it have enough academic offerings and room for growth for a motivated senior?), how good are the GCs, what are their caseloads, how flexible are the policies, how will budget cuts likely affect my particular kid's endeavors, what happens if my kid tops out in math or language, what's the student culture like (i.e. positive peer synergy), what are the overriding philosophies regarding intellectualism and recognition, will I or my kid expend all my energy simply withstanding the prevailing student or academic culture, can the school continue to provide inspiration for all four years? etc. I know I'm stating the obvious, but it just strikes me that some parents find so many ugly "surprises" at their kids' schools when they're seniors. And senior year is a quarter of the h.s experience. True, it's late in the game at that point, but for parents with younger kids, it's worth looking ahead and refining the search, possibly getting extra creative and moving heaven and earth to have your kid attend the high school that seems to be a good match...</p>

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<p>I wish it was as simple as choosing a piece of candy from the Whitman sampler, but it just isn't. I learn from experience and don't like to blindly accept stories that are handed down by parents with older children. The problem is that by the time you've figured out the public school system you're in, the sacrificial lamb (first born) is graduating. Younger siblings benefit, but are either so close in age you don't have time to search out another school district, sell your house and move or so much younger that personnel and rules have changed. We didn't choose a high school when our son was 4. We chose a community and oddly enough the community is just what we thought it would be. I don't want to place my soon to be 9th grader in a new public school - it's hard to move at that age when everyone else has been friends forever and I don't have the years to do a work-up on the new school. Private schools seem like the best option (usually everyone is new and the schools realize you are there by choice) but the only options around us are religiously affiliated. So it seems like the choice is to stick with a known problem or send a child to board. Things change so quickly - budgets fail, superintendents are arrested for embezzlement, states change their requirements - at a pace that real estate just can't keep up with. </p>

<p>I've appreciated the chance to vent a little and to learn that it's a very widespread problem. (There is a simple solution, though - establish some criteria, inform the players and follow through with what was stated. Much easier said than done).</p>

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<p>Guiltguru, you seem to have a rather idealistic -and I think, unrealistic -- view of "success". You started a thread wondering where your daughter could get outside awards - since she was passed over at school -- but now you tell us that she has received recognition on the National French Exam and Cum Laude Society -- so she HAS received awards. But either she - or you - is not satisfied with winnng a few awards, you want many awards. </p>

<p>And then you tell us that your daughter is the quiet brainy type who "never wants to 'stick out'". Well -- getting an award definitely is sticking out -- so again - who wants the awards? Your daughter? or you? </p>

<p>Success in life does come to those who have strong interpersonal skills -- they are the ones who get elected to public office, and they are the ones who end up promoted to management level within any work environment. Even in an academic environment, the department head is not necessarily going to be the professor who has done the most groundbreaking research. That doesn't mean that quiet brainy types can't also be successful -- but it depends on how they define succcess. If success means winning awards and getting public accolades - then no, the quiet brainy types rarely get that. In facdt, they often get passed over while someone else takes credit for what they did. </p>

<p>I am not arguing that "life is not fair" so get used to it. On the contrary, I'm trying to point out that there is a set of rules to play by, but that a lot of people who complain of unfairness or bias simply don't understand the rules of the game. It is a social game, because humans are social animals. So it's usually not about how fast and far you can run with the ball on your own, it's about what you can do for the team. </p>

<p>When you do something for the personal satisfaction it gives you, it doesn't matter what other people think. But if your goal is to win an award -- i.e., recognition from other people for what you have done -- then you have entered a social arena. If the people who give the awards don't like you or if they don't notice you ... you won't get the award. </p>

<p>If the award happens to be given based on hard, fast, objective rules -- then you might have a chance at it .... but scholarships and awards for "excellence" rarely have such rules attached. "Excellence" is a broader concept than merely having the most points on an objective scale. </p>

<p>The people who give those awards want them to go to people they like and approve of and feel good about. I mean, how many scholarships and awards require an essay? An essay always is going to be judged subjectively. If the judges don't like the views expressed in the essay, they won't give the writer the award, no matter how well-written and well-supported those views are. Step one in winning an award: know your audience. Give 'em what they want.</p>

<p>An award is not really positive reinforcement for behavior, because it comes too late. In terms of learning, from a pyschological standpoint, positive reinforcement needs to be immediate. If there is intrinsic motivation, then the positive reinforcement simply comes with the immediate success of having performed well or reached the goal. Grades and awards are extrinsic motivators -- they are long-term rewards that mean something to some students, but generally very little to highly intelligent or highly creative individuals who are more intent on pursuing their own passions. </p>

<p>I am sorry that you devalue the abilities and accomplishments of those who have strong social skills. The social skills do not negate other abilities -- any more than having strong athletic ability negates the possibility of a strong intellect (the "dumb jock" myth). A lot of people complain of anti-intellectualism, but seem to harbor a reverse bias, using phrases like "popularity contest" to explain why some other kid has won the award. But the kids who are getting the awardds probably aren't merely "popular" -- they are winning because of a combination of factors, including being very good at whatever the award was given for, but also including being the kind of person that the teachers want to single out as setting an example for others.</p>

<p>I don't lack sympathy. I was a quiet and painfully shy kid. I didn't get much attention of any sort in school, even though I happened to have scored higher than all the other kids at my school on the IQ tests that were given to all kids in those days. When I did start to come out of my shell as a teenager, it was as a rebel, challenging authority.... so that didn't go over too well in high school, either. </p>

<p>That's why I appreciate the value of the social skills. It didn't come easily for me. I understand that there are a very intricate set of rules to learn - much more complicated than merely finding the right answer - that do seem to come instinctively for some people.</p>

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<p>Calmom,</p>

<p>Great, insightful post.</p>

<p>
[Quote]
I was a quiet and painfully shy kid. I didn't get much attention of any sort in school, even though I happened to have scored higher than all the other kids at my school on the IQ tests that were given to all kids in those days. That's why I appreciate the value of the social skills. It didn't come easily for me. I understand that there are a very intricate set of rules to learn

[/Quote]
.</p>

<p>To achieve my goals, I found it necessary to take the Dale Carnegie program to learn people skills. They teach that only 10% of success in business is the result of your knowledge and 90% is how you handle others. I firmly believe this is true.</p>

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<p>calmom, for someone who values "social skills" so highly, you certainly seem to like to tweak people's noses.:D</p>

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<p>If debating a point on a public forum is tweaking noses, so be it. I AM a lawyer by training, after all.</p>

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<p>As am I calmom, as am I. We both have that cross to bear, but it does suggest , as you mentioned before, that we best be concerned about how our words play to our audience.</p>

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<p>Goodness, calmom. I've spent the last several days too busy at the hospital to get on-line, and come back to your vitriol. I don't know what kind of law you practice, but it must not be the kind the requires the social skills that you laud. This thread has left you a bit "touchy" for some reason you may need to explore.</p>

<p>Let me make some clarification. Again. Since you seem to read selectively and have not read the entire thread. Physicians can't afford to practice medicine that way, since, if we miss the detail, our patients may not make it. </p>

<p>I did not ask for opportunities for my daughter to have "awards", but </p>

<p>"Please understand that I'm not trying to find spurious awards for my kid to make her feel good. That is not the point....Yes, these kinds of kids are resilient and she ultimately will do fine when she gets out of this insular environment... But it is nice to show them that somewhere, sometime these kids will be rewarded for excellence."</p>

<p>With regards to the literature supporting the benefit of positive reinforcement for encouraging success, you seem to be referring to the early animal psychology studies. As you pointed out, humans are not animals. A wealth of data in undergraduate and medical education supports the concept of facilitating success even in high level students by objectively awarding success. The award does not have to be proximate to the work. Humans are experts at delayed gratification. Studies in education also confirm that lack of impact of providing worthless awards.</p>

<p>At my D's school, the two awards she received are not delivered publicly. We got a letter at home, and these are not announced at the assembly. Interesting, but perhaps because they occur during the course of the year and not at the end and perhaps because the administration doesn't want the other students to "feel bad" about not getting these awards which clearly define the "top students", this is the case. We were all very proud of these awards for her, even though no one else knew who we didn't choose to tell. And, no, as her parents, we don't value an award for award's sake and our D knows this well. She knows very well that her parents work their butts off at all hours of the day and night, often interrupting family activities, for 1/4 the salary our private practice colleagues make (and not even half as much as my lawyer sister), for usually little appreciation from our patients, to potentially get passed over for tenure for being one or two papers "short" or a few $100K of grant money "short"...solely because we have a passion for what we do. This is a good reward for us and she knows it. She works her butt off at her passions for the same types of reasons. Whether or not she receives "awards" does not affect this. </p>

<p>No one (including me) is devaluing social skills. Although, if you read the "Bood Awards" thread, many students have posted there who were disappointed that these awards were given, in their perspective, for "popularity", and some awardees are described as "potheads" and "cheaters." However, social skills are rewarded each and every day and, in my view, don't need to be rewarded again and again in school assemblies. Quiet students are not necessarily "lacking" in social skills. As my D's GC told us in our meeting, "XXX is always so polite, even when the other kids are rude to her. She thinks before she weighs in. She's such a pleasure to have in my English class." These kids operate on a different "plane" which is neither better nor worse than the "popular" kids. Just different. </p>

<p>You seem to place "social skills" ABOVE expertise. Many patients will tell you they'd rather have a doctor who's the best at doing bypass surgeries if they need one, than have the "BMOC" golfer doctor who can tell a good joke in the clinic. Of course, doctors who can relate to their patients (again, these are not necessarily the most "popular" in their class with the best "social skills") AND do good bypass surgery are more desirable. I doubt that few of these got "Book Awards".</p>

<p>I've worked with professional (med students, residents, and fellows) students for almost 20 years now. I stand by my belief that true success breeds success. People strive for excellence because they "feel good" about what they do, however that "feeling good" is defined. Many many people define their success without the title "Most popular kid with the best social skills gets the popularity award again." The fact that good social skills are the key to success for some fields is undeniable and not to be underestimated. "Quiet" kids know what these fields are and may choose to pursue careers in which other skills are more important. "Popular kids" are rewarded every day by their teachers and colleagues. However, if you wish, tthis could be rewarded in a public way at schools with an award for "Exellence in Social Skills"....objective criteria for the award could even be developed. Even the socially adept kids would get better at being socially adept.I am merely placing a call for opportunities for quiet kids with different social skills to "strut their stuff".</p>

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<p>Lefthandofdog: you've nailed why I sent both my kids to boarding school for high school. If you're seriously considering that option, I'd be happy to go into exhausting detail about how it worked out and all that (beyond "well") if you send me a PM.</p>

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<p>guiltguru -- I don't see how you can interpret my post as "vitriol". I disagree with you - that's not a personal attack. I did ask some questions -- if you were offended, I am sorry - but it is one thing for a parent to be concerned because their child has been entirely overlooked, and quite another when the child has already won awards and recognition in some contexts, but either the parent or child is looking for more. To me, the "vitriol" comes from people who describe the award winners as potheads, or brand it as a popularity contest. Maybe you see those things as statements of fact; I sense sour grapes. Rather than acknowledge that the other kids may be equally deserving, the winners are slandered and the process is labeled unfair. </p>

<p>I made it pretty clear in my post that by "social skills" I am not talking about "popularity". I do mean that the kids who contribute in class, take on extra tasks, help others in their class, or who demonstrate strong leadership skills - are also demonstrating qualities that fall into the umbrella of "excellence" along with their GPA. The point is that the reason some other kid gets the award may very well be that the other kid is "more excellent" than the kid with the highest grades in the class. Unless the award is specifically premised on grades, it is legitimate for teachers to take other factors into account. The kids who have the highest grades do get rewarded - the grades themselves are the reward. Honors like school valedictorian are also usually determined by grades alone. Awards usually have broader criteria; in addition to the factors I mentioned, many teachers also consider degree of effort and improvement. And, as I noted above, where monetary awards are concerned, perceived financial need seems to also be taken into account. Most monetary scholarship awards also highly value qualities like leadership and community service. Awards are usually given to people for the value of their contributions, not necessarily for the value of their individual accomplishments - though in some cases the two are closely intertwined.</p>

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<p>"I did not ask for opportunities for my daughter to have "awards", but"</p>

<p>yes you are... as in " am merely placing a call for opportunities for quiet kids with different social skills to "strut their stuff".</p>

<p>and what's wrong with that? The point is, I don't think some desire for well deserved recognition and the inner motivation that comes from doing something you love are mutually exclusive.</p>

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<p>I do think you sound a little like sour grapes when you characterize an outgoing student as the "the extroverted, smiley kid who kisses up to anyone".</p>

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<p>I don't think high school is the time for rewarding social skills as part of "excellence". I also don't think that social competency in high school is an indicator of potential future social skills and therefore future success! Are we forgetting that high school students are teenagers who are still developing? Even among seniors the developmental differences in physical and mental growth can be staggering. Plus, most 17 to 18 year olds are still working on their frontal lobes, as we learned through recent imaging studies, and many juniors and seniors are still dealing with puberty! These are not developmentally complete adults - their mental development is quite fragile in many cases. My own son#2 has yet to start puberty and he is 15.5. He is not nearly as mature physically or emotionally as some of his more physically advanced friends. Yet, he is an excellent math student - should that matter? Schools should be "safe" places where developmental differences such as social skills, emotional maturity, physical maturity, etc., are not be "measured" by teachers, whom the students believe to be ultimate judges. The student's social circle and sphere of influence is the school and it's teachers. Passing judgement on social skills is simply not the appropriate function of educators IMNSHO! How many of us know people who were nerds in high school, yet came out of their shells in college or later, at work? I can't think of a more important period in development in which to avoid iusing social skills as awards criteria.</p>

<p>An aside comment about social skills above competency or academic excellence. The emphasis on talking a good game and superficiality has given us a generation of unethical CEOs, among others.</p>

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<p>I haven't read this whole thread, but here's my thoughts.</p>

<p>This is my experience with the hs awards, as someone who just graduated a week and a half ago from a smallish private school that doesn't rank but has a val and sal. My class was VERY intelligent and pretty competitive - it's funny because the class below us is the total opposite, haha.</p>

<p>All along, there's been a third to a half of us that took all the accelerated classes AND managed to have excellent grades in them. I've had pretty good grades, but kind of knew that I'd never have the top grades. I was kind of aware of that, and sort of stopped being so competitive against others, but against myself, trying to do the best I could for myself although I realized I'd never be #1. I got into pretty decent schools (Wake, URichmond, UNC-CH, Elon) although I guess I'm kind of mediocre among the smart kids. And I'm pretty introverted.</p>

<p>At the end of the year, we have an awards assembly for the book awards, highest average in a class awards, honor roll for the year, etc. Usually if you're going to be awarded something, your advisor calls your parents to let them know to come. In both sophomore and junior years, the "big" years for such awards, my parents got called, so I expected to get SOME kind of recognition. But no! All I ended up getting was honors for the year: not too shabby, but not a book award or anything as I had expected. I ended up watching my friends go up time and time again for awards as my hope for getting anything started to fade.</p>

<p>Well, the tables turned this year, at the senior awards night. I got the English and band awards as well as a scholarship for writing. Some of my friends didn't get anything, when they probably should have...and I kind of felt bad for them, but then I realized that I had been in their shoes last year. I know these awards won't help me get into college or probably even off WM's waitlist by this point, but it was nice to get them. </p>

<p>Just remember that these awards can be all "politics" if you know what I mean...they're not the be all, end all, and someone can still get into good schools without them...even though he/she may not feel too wonderful about it when they get passed up.</p>

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<p>Amen, Rileydog.</p>

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<p>I'm sorry I haven't read all these posts, but I'm pretty sure i will when I'm not really tired.
I'm shy and still managed to get something on awards night. I got scholarships from a college and three awards that were outside our immediate area. The preps and jocks and other "loud" people got the local ones, you know where the friends of the family are the judges.
As a student, can I just say that it hurts the student when parents are offended if their kid doesn't get anything. My friend didn't get a letter, wasn't really upset, then her dad got upset which hurt her self-esteem. Before parents go around blaming the school because "My kid is just as good as the others" maybe they should just calm down about a silly piece of paper and realize that all these awards do is waste ink and paper. Just because Joe or Jane didn't get a most improved award in math doesn't mean they aren't good. Congratulate your kid instead of being so negative.</p>