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College Search & Selection
1

<p>Hi everybody--</p>

<p>Like most of you, I'm a collegebound senior, but I'm trapped in a particularly sticky situation.</p>

<p>I'm pretty clear on what I want in a college. My parents are pretty clear in what they want in a college. So far, we have zero compromises.</p>

<p>(Just so you know, I won't be needing financial aid and my stats are competitive enough to make any school under consideration, two things which I think hurt my case).</p>

<p>What I want in a school: an academically intense yet non-competitive school that encourages students to explore their academic interests and that emphasis a capstone project or a thesis. I prefer small and I prefer rural, but that's not necessarily going to put a school out of consideration. I don't particularly care about a drug scene or lack thereof, but I do care about a sense of community and a passion for ideas. I could imagine myself on a Friday or Saturday night going to a roommate's poetry reading, watching an art movie, having an intense discussion in somebody's room, getting wasted, or a mixture.</p>

<p>What's most important to me is that I don't want to be in an environment where people are competitive with each other or high-achievers in the sense that they want to get good grades and go to med school. I prefer a kind of person who is okay putting the books away for a while in pursuit of something else, and I feel like a more competitive school admissions-wise invites a more competitive kind of student.</p>

<p>Schools I'm most interested in:
Hampshire
Reed
New College of Florida
Marlboro</p>

<p>Schools I'm kinda interested in but I have some reservations about:
Univ. of Chicago
Carleton
Oberlin
Grinnell
Lewis and Clark
Colorado College
Wesleyan
Swarthmore
Bryn Mawr</p>

<p>Schools my parents are interested in me attending:
Yale
Harvard
Princeton
Cornell
Dartmouth
Brown
Columbia
Univ. of Pennsylvania</p>

<p>Essentially, they ONLY want me to go to an Ivy League, and they think that either Dartmouth (small and rural) or Brown (free-thinking and intellectual) would make the best fit for me and they want me to apply to one ED. The problem is, I really don't see myself there.</p>

<p>Univ. of Chicago and Swarthmore seem like they would make good compromise schools (both are elite, both are pretty intense academically and attract a certain type of person), but my parents are CONVINCED that you can't get a job unless your degree is covered with ivy. They've told me I can apply to a few of my other schools as safeties, but that I can only go if I don't get into any Ivies.</p>

<p>So, what am I looking for? A few things. First, some sympathy would be nice. Second, some suggestions for how to approach this topic with my parents. Third, if somebody can convince me that the Ivies might make a good place for me (I'll probably end up applying to all of them). At this point, I'm just going to call Dartmouth or Brown (whichever one I apply to early) after my app is in and tell them not to admit me and explain why. Is that wise at all? Should I just risk getting shipped off to a school I don't particularly want to attend?</p>

2

<p>Do your parents have an Ivy league education? I’m just wondering why they have such strong feelings about this matter.</p>

3

<p>Smyeth, I have no advice to offer you, but I’d like to compliment you on how well you communicate. You have a wonderful conversational style, you cut to the chase, and you so nicely punctuate and spell. I’m sorry for your predicament but enjoyed your style.</p>

4

<p>Dad went to H and is a lawyer, mom went to Penn and transferred to Harvard (she always wanted to go to Harvard) and doesn’t currently work by choice.</p>

<p>I think part of the reason they stress the Ivy League is a) they met each other at Harvard, b) my dad owes part of his financial success to having been a student at Harvard, and c) they want a brand name to tote around to their friends. We live in a community where a name-brand education is very, very, very important, and if my mom’s friends sit around and talk about their children at DARTMOUTH and YALE, she can’t quite talk the same way about her child at NEW COLLEGE OF FLORIDA.</p>

<p>They also are convinced that ivy=best rankings= best education (“there’s a reason for those rankings”)= best for everybody</p>

5

<p>Tough situation…I can see your predicament. You don’t have much leverage because your parents will be footing the bill I believe. </p>

<p>Perhaps a slight compromise is that you agree to apply to some Ivys if your parents take you to visit some of the colleges you are considering. It will be a tall order to change their minds.</p>

<p>Good luck to you.</p>

6

<p>That sounds like a good idea.</p>

<p>My other thought is maybe I can find Hampshire or Reed at these schools, maybe I’m not giving the ivies enough credit. If I go to an Ivy, you can be sure I’ll be taking the most challenging classes I can and joining literary magazines, etc. but I’d like to be able to meet people with the same kind of intense academic vibes as me. It’s not that much fun when you’re the only person who is really involved in their work.</p>

<p>I posted separately on the Dartmouth and Brown threads to get some more points of view. I realize that I probably shouldn’t be whining about a situation like this.</p>

7

<p>Yes, it’s unlikely you’ll get much sympathy. Visiting some of the Ivy schools could change your mind as well.</p>

<p>In my opinion, graduating from an Ivy league school will lead to more opportunities for you than graduating from New College of Florida.</p>

8

<p>You really going to apply to 17 schools? You would almost have to if your parents insist on applying to every Ivy; even with perfect scores you would need some back-up colleges.</p>

9

<p>You need to visit and you need to have a clear idea of what you what academically. Looking for a school full of intense, but non competitive students may not work out. You will find many different types of people at every school.</p>

10

<p>Smyeth, I admire your independent drive and desire to seek out “fit”, rather than just prestige. With that said though, I will echo the poster who noted you’re unlikely to get much sympathy. There are very few people in the World who have what it takes to get into the schools you are considering, and even fewer whose parents are able to foot the bill. If all else fails and you feel strong enough about this you can always opt to pay your own way through the school of your choice.</p>

11

<p>I tend to agree with your statement that maybe you can find Reed or New College or Hampshire within an Ivy (or other top school such as U Chicago). Maybe you should keep an open mind. Maybe you should just go along and apply to most of the Ivies, a few of your alternative top schools, and a couple of your favorites (Reed, Hampshire). Would your parents go along with a couple of years at a smaller school of your choice, if you promised to try to transfer to an Ivy after that? They could tell the friends that you just absolutely felt the need for that small college experience. I also agree that visiting some of these places could be very enlightening. You may be surprised.</p>

12

<p>smyeth -</p>

<p>First, if it helps, you do have my sympathy. You know what you want, more than many applicants and you will probably thrive at any of the schools on your top list.</p>

<p>Second, your two compromise schools (Chicago, Swarthmore) are, for the rankings-conscious, as elite as you could want. </p>

<p>Third, given your list, have you also considered any of the Claremont Consortium schools?</p>

<p>Fourth, I don’t think you can just call and retract an application - try to iron that one out now, and don’t apply anywhere ed.</p>

<p>Finally, the two schools your parents identified, Brown and Dartmouth, are ivies which do at least meet some of your criterion - I think you will that students really are not competitive with each other for grades at either school (although there will be a contingent of self competitive students striving for med school, etc.) And you will definitely find intellectual students at each. Dartmouth gives you rural and a really strong community, brown gives you academic freedom and a fun town. Both of these ivies, and in fact all ivies, give you incredible opportunity and also resources, to develope other interests and passions. So if you have to look at them, try to do so when classes are in session to get a better sense of the student bodies and the different student-initiated activities that take place.</p>

13

<p>Don’t apply to all the Ivies. You already know that several of them are not for you, and you will be in a much stickier predicament if one of your least favorites is your only acceptance. </p>

<p>You’ve identified two Ivies that seem like good compromises - Brown and Dartmouth. Finish out your list with your match and safety schools, and perhaps 2 more reaches. Then think about an EA strategy - you know you don’t want to apply ED to a coerced school, so don’t. You might mention that Harvard has no early round this year, so any ED school would exclude you from applying to the big H.</p>

<p>If you apply to U of Chicago EA, you’ll have a good shot at your first acceptance and will have a strong point of negotiation. The more you can do to break down the impasse between you and your parents into manageable sections, the closer to an agreement you will come. What you don’t want is for them to lay down the law and give you an ultimatum. Keep working on the negotiable points. This is also a good time to grow a mohawk and dye it purple so your parents have something to worry about besides your college applications. (just kidding, or am I?)</p>

14

<p>I went to Carleton, so I may be biased, but your description of what you imagine in a college was EXACTLY what I loved so much about Carleton. I’m sure other schools offer the same thing, but you could have been talking about Carleton word for word. Regarding the Ivy situation, I may try to convince your parents that the advantage that an Ivy League education gives you over other colleges has diminished in recent years (which is true), and that employers are no longer as obsessed with “prestige” as many parents and C.C. posters seem to think they are. In general, liberal arts schools are gaining a terrific reputation among employers and many have special programs for recruiting at liberal arts colleges. And frankly, if you are going to go into law, medicine, m.b.a, etc. where you go to undergraduate school doesn’t matter a bit, and prestigious (including Ivy) graduate schools know and love liberal arts college undergrads.</p>

15

<p>smyeth,</p>

<p>Might your parents be influenced by what other schools’ graduates accomplish later? For those going into research or academia, these schools (including many already mentioned) excel (courtesy of interesteddad):</p>

<p>Here’s a list of the top 60 per capita undergrad PhD producers for the most recent 10 year period. The number is the percentage of all graduates of these schools who have gone on to get a PhD or equivalent doctorate:</p>

<p>Percentage of PhDs per graduate</p>

<p>Academic field: ALL</p>

<p>PhDs and Doctoral Degrees:
ten years (1994 to 2003) from NSF database</p>

<p>Number of Undergraduates:
ten years (1989 to 1998) from IPEDS database</p>

<p>Note: Does not include colleges with less than 1000 graduates over the ten year period
Note: Includes all NSF doctoral degrees inc. PhD, Divinity, etc., but not M.D. or Law. </p>

<p>1 35.8% California Institute of Technology<br>
2 24.7% Harvey Mudd College
3 21.1% Swarthmore College<br>
4 19.9% Reed College<br>
5 18.3% Massachusetts Institute of Technology<br>
6 16.8% Carleton College<br>
7 15.8% Bryn Mawr College<br>
8 15.7% Oberlin College
9 15.3% University of Chicago<br>
10 14.5% Yale University
11 14.3% Princeton University<br>
12 14.3% Harvard University<br>
13 14.1% Grinnell College<br>
14 13.8% Haverford College<br>
15 13.8% Pomona College<br>
16 13.1% Rice University
17 12.7% Williams College<br>
18 12.4% Amherst College
19 11.4% Stanford University
20 11.3% Kalamazoo College<br>
21 11.0% Wesleyan University
22 10.6% St John’s College (both campus)
23 10.6% Brown University<br>
24 10.4% Wellesley College<br>
25 10.0% Earlham College
26 9.6% Beloit College<br>
27 9.5% Lawrence University
28 9.3% Macalester College<br>
29 9.0% Cornell University, All Campuses<br>
30 9.0% Bowdoin College
31 8.9% Mount Holyoke College<br>
32 8.9% Smith College<br>
33 8.8% Vassar College<br>
34 8.7% Case Western Reserve University
35 8.7% Johns Hopkins University<br>
36 8.7% St Olaf College
37 8.7% Hendrix College
38 8.6% Hampshire College<br>
39 8.5% Trinity University<br>
40 8.5% Knox College<br>
41 8.5% Duke University
42 8.4% Occidental College<br>
43 8.3% University of Rochester
44 8.3% College of Wooster<br>
45 8.3% Barnard College
46 8.2% Bennington College<br>
47 8.1% Columbia University
48 8.0% Whitman College
49 7.9% University of California-Berkeley<br>
50 7.9% College of William and Mary
51 7.8% Carnegie Mellon University<br>
52 7.8% New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology<br>
53 7.7% Brandeis University
54 7.6% Dartmouth College<br>
55 7.5% Wabash College<br>
56 7.5% Bates College<br>
57 7.5% Davidson College<br>
58 7.2% Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute<br>
59 7.2% Franklin and Marshall College<br>
60 7.1% Fisk University</p>

16

<p>Why not visit some of the schools they are suggesting and have them visit some of the schools you are suggesting. Seeing schools in person can really change people’s minds about them…yours or your parents. Then maybe you can come to an acceptable compromise.</p>

17

<p>Smyeth, you seem to be going in too many directions – pulled by both your parents and your wish list. You don’t say how much visiting you’ve done, but aside from the conflict with your parents you also seem not to have clearly defined your preferences.</p>

<p>First I would worry less about the competitive pressures at any of the top academic schools, whether they are ivy league or LACs. All colleges – even Harvard, Yale, Swarthmore, and Chicago – are full of regular kids who like to kick back on weekends and have fun. Unless you’re driven to be a straight A student or top of your class, you will not find the workload overwhelming.

</p>

<p>I had to think about this comment and actually, no, I don’t agree. The schools that are the most intense academically attract high achievers, often with multifaceted talents, but the competition and pressure is more internal than external. Grades are rarely talked about and it’s definitely not-on to brag or compare. You will find evidence of camaraderie and mutual support at every college on the planet. </p>

<p>Dartmouth and Brown are both fine schools, but they are very different. It seems you understand that and that you like the rural, small town atmosphere of Dartmouth and the intellectual, artsy atmosphere of Brown. I’d suggest that you try to put your wish list into priority order, i.e, what’s most important to you? Brown is urban and has an edge that may or may not be appropriate for you. Same for Chicago. Reed and Swarthmore are excellent choices but if I’m hearing your clearly they don’t seem to fit your leaning toward rural/small town and laidback. </p>

<p>If you want a remote and insular campus community you shouldn’t have to give up the intellectual focus or the laid back student body. I’d suggest that you look at the following LACs: Williams, Amherst, Hamilton, Skidmore, Middlebury, Bowdoin, Smith, Holyoke. I assure you that graduates of these schools go on to become healthy, wealthy and wise.
It sounds like your parents had successful college experiences and they want the same for you. There is no doubt that ivy degrees open doors, but there is also no doubt (documented ) that a degree from an equally academically rigorous LAC will also open doors – graduate school, professional school, Wall Street, government, whatever you seek. </p>

<p>My advice would be to avoid ED altogether and apply to both a select number ivies (for your parents) and LACs for yourself. Admissions to top schools, even assuming you have all the right stuff, is very competitive. So in the end the decision may be made for you. Wait and see where you are admitted then do some follow up visits and overnights. Don’t draw any conclusions until then.</p>

<p>Lastly, no matter what your credentials, you still need safeties and less selectives and this is where schools like Hampshire, Marlboro and the New College of Florida fit the bill.</p>

18

<p>How about you visit the schools you really want, the compromise schools, and Brown and Dartmouth, ALONG WITH YOUR PARENTS?</p>

<p>These are two possible outcomes:

  1. Your parents might, they just might, open their eyes to the ‘compromise’ schools (I think it’s unlikely they’ll change their minds about your dream schools, going by what you’ve already posted)
  2. You may realize that Brown and Dartmouth do appeal to you after all</p>

<p>I don’t think anything will be accomplished without visiting. Or, here’s an even better alternative: get your parents on CC. That’s the best way to open someone’s (anyone’s) eyes, particularly those of parents. I’m sure all parents on CC will second this statement of mine.</p>

19

<p>Not to add more confusion, but have you looked at Kenyon, in OH? Rural, intellectual, friendly, etc.
Visiting is very important here. Go to those that your parents like and those that you like. Try and see each other’s point of view.<br>
Worst that can happen is you are “forced” to go to an ivy.
=P</p>

20

<p>smyeth:</p>

<p>You sound super-thoughtful; your parents sound super-blinded. I have a suggestion that will probably blow both of your minds, but will interest you: DEEP SPRINGS COLLEGE.</p>

<pre><code> 25 students
all whizzes
admission and faculty-selection done by the students
the highest admisson rankings AND the highest rate of going on to advanced degrees of ANY college
hard work (mental and physical)
RESPONSIBILITY
FREE tuition
</code></pre>

<p>Two years in isolation at this incredibly selective (academically and maturity-wise, but not elitist) tiny school will meet all of the criteria you mention, and will enhance your maturity like nowhere else. After that, you will have easy access to any name college, allowing your <em>credentials</em> to satisfy your parents AFTER you have satisfied your own needs.</p>

<p>Check it out.</p>