Help! It’s Complicated.

Parents Forum
21

<p>You let your son travel and sleep overnight with a girl you don't like?
Hope she doesn't get pregnant.
My cousin was in a situation like this--single mother encouraged sleepovers, etc. She got pregnant in high school (but had a miscarriage). Later married another guy--co-worker of her mother. Mom was instrumental in "encouraging" that relationship, too, and now lives next door to the young couple. </p>

<p>I feel sorry for your son--but he is young. There's time. The best you can do is hope for separate colleges. Most high school couples do break up, but a few marry and stay together forever. . .</p>

22

<p>Where to start...?</p>

<p>Are you allowing you son to spend the night and go on vacations with the girl? It sounded sort of like you were but I wasn't sure. If you have been, then you have been making matters worse.</p>

<p>You sound like maybe you are too involved. Would your son being doing as well in school if you backed off some? Is he doing well in order to please you or because he's really doing what he wants to do? </p>

<p>It doesn't sound like you are ready to trust that your son will act like an adult once he's away at school. If you haven't been setting boundries or been doing too much for him, maybe you have a right to be worried.</p>

23

<p>Yeah, sort of been there. So have a lot of parents I know with kids. It does not end after college either. In fact, some of the involvements after college makes the high school and college gals look pretty good. And there ain't much you can do about it. My close friend is agonizing right now because her son and his girlfriend just split up, and he is terribly depressed. He is also an officer from ROTC on duty for the first time, and is pretty danged lonely. All my friend can think about is that movie, "An Officer and a Gentleman", and the college girlfriend that she did not particularly like and had hoped the relationship would wane is looking like a prize. </p>

<p>You do have the stats on your side. Highs school romances often break up in college. Even if they go to the same college. I do know that parental disapproval, threats, punative measures, rudeness towards the girl and the relationship just seems to fuel the situation, making it hot, hot, hot when you want it to cool down. </p>

<p>As our kids grow up and graduate, and go out into the "real" world, their relationships are often not with the preselected kids that they know in highschool and college. The issues that can arise make the college search and application a cake walk, and inappropriate relationships are pretty much the norm. You just home that good sense and karma win out in the end. There is no good that comes from making the relationship between you and your son's partners a hostile one, and it has wrecked many a family. And it does not end even as they are well into adulthood. There are bad marriages that make a parent's heart ache. Divorce, remarriage are not things we are thinking about now in terms of our kids, but they can part of our children's lives, just as our generation has gone through this. I don't know of any"Romeo and Juliet" situations that have not been a tortuous experience for all involved even if the relationship does end. Whereas often these things do resolve themselves if the parents keep their mouth shut and act civily and graciously.</p>

24

<p>It's unusual to find a situation where your son has such exceptional stats and the gf does too. They sound mature and hardworking. Maybe they have something real.</p>

<p>Bottom line, you can't win and you seriously risk having a good relationship with your son and potential daughter in law. </p>

<p>If the two have it together enough to be ivy contenders, maybe they know what they want out of life. Frankly James, let go and let your son use his judgement.</p>

25

<p>I'm going to echo the advice you've been given elsewhere here on CC: while it is difficult, backing off and not setting ultimatums is the best approach. This relationship is likely to run it natural course once they both get to college; opposing it could give it energy to run longer.</p>

26

<p>JamesF, if you cut your son off he will resent you. And if your son knocks up his girlfriend, he will resent her. Therefore, why do you not just set down some groundrules for your son and his girlfriend with regards to schooling. You could speak with them both.</p>

<p>If I had a son in that age group, I would lay down the law when it comes to what can happen to a fellow who knocks up his girlfriend.</p>

<p>Put some fear in him about that. Draw up a contract of sorts about you and yours wife's expectations while your son is in school. I am sorry that you folks do not like your son's girlfriend, but you and your wife have the time to work with them both.</p>

<p>Obviously, I am not trying to imply that your son is irresponsible. But, I bet that you guys could all work together towards something good which no one would resent.</p>

27

<p>Advice for anyone that is particularly appropriate for you:</p>

<p>Parents should talk to their kids about what they are looking to get out of college when they are going through the college search. Parents should also tell their kids what they want them to get out of something with a $160,000 price tag. </p>

<p>If your son says "academics," I would point out that he can enroll in his State Us honours programme and get the same thing for a lot cheaper. Once you've gotten him talking about social life, extracurriculars, and professors, things will be better. </p>

<p>Send him on overnights to college, before he's even finished apps. That way, he can get excited about college, not just about more school.</p>

<p>I guess I don't see the financial thing as control. Folks, hate to tell you, but the son's money ain't paying the tuition. Parents are under no obligation to pay for the most expensive college that their children want. It's a gift or a reward or whatever - but givers of such have every right to determine the conditions under which they are given. (Need I reference Miss Manners in the wedding thread?) </p>

<p>I know people who went to college and wasted their parent's money. They partied too hard, didn't do the work, got mediocre grades, and generally could have had the same experience at a much cheaper school (or on their own dime). The OP has every right, morally, to ensure that a *&^#-load of money will not be thrown down the tubes. The inmates do not run the asylum.</p>

28

<p>I wonder if you would be so concerned about your son's "commitments" that would "restrict his full participation" if the scenario were the same, but you liked the girl?</p>

<p>If you're setting any sort of conditions on paying his tuition, then yes, talk about them at the beginning. Pretending like you will support him financially and then yanking that support once he's there is cruel (and I've seen parents do it). I'm not a fan of many of the popular conditions, like paying or witholding tuition based on major, but if that's the way you want to go, deal with it up front.</p>

<p>If what you're worried about is that your son won't take full advantage of Ivy opportunities because of his relationship, then I would suggest explaining your concerns to him instead of giving him an ultimatum. It may be possible to work out a deal where he can keep the relationship (assuming he wants to after he gets to college anyway), and still get the desirable Ivy experience.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Need I reference Miss Manners in the wedding thread?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm a fan of Miss Manners. Miss Manners also had some nice remarks about how it was "not quite nice" to use the fact that, as a parent, you have money and your children don't, to get them to behave in the way you wish. Not, of course, that she objected to parents trying to get their children to behave, she just wasn't a fan of the money excuse (Source: Miss Manners' Guide to Rearing Perfect Children).</p>

29

<p>What everyone else says.</p>

<p>I typed out the lyrics to "Never Say No" from The Fantasticks a few days ago, so I won't do it again, but it is never more apt. If you even so much as hint at forbidding the relationship or bribing your son to end or to limit it (and that is exactly what you are talking about), you turn them into Romeo & Juliet, Star-Crossed Lovers! (and we know how well THAT worked out).</p>

<p>Meanwhile, the vast, vast majority of high school relationships do not survive college, whether the couple is at the same school or not. (Of course, the vast majority of high school relationships don't survive summer, and this one has a few times already, which is why you are worried.) Despite the fact that everyone knows SOMEONE married happily to his/her high school sweetheart, you have about a 99% chance of getting your way by doing absolutely nothing.</p>

<p>And, really, what are the possibilities? (1) They live happily ever after. Do you want a bad relationship with them? Marian's line about grandchildren is perfectly serious. (2) They marry and it's awful and they get divorced. People survive this. (3) The relationship limps on for a while and eventually one of them breaks it off. Fine. Better sooner than later, but some life lessons have to be learned by experience, not by teaching, and what it's like to be in a sick relationship (and how to change things) is one of them. (4) They break up sooner rather than later. You're happy.</p>

<p>There's only one really bad outcome here, and it's not the most likely scenario (unless you force it). If it does happen, do you want to have "punished" your son in advance, too? Do you want to feel like you encouraged it by daring them to be together, and forcing S to a social context where early marriage was more the norm?</p>

<p>One more bit of obvious observation: Relationships have two sides. The girl may be immature and manipulative (she's what, 17?), her mother may be scheming to "land" your son, but your son is probably getting what he wants out of the relationship and doing his part to encourage the behaviors you dislike. If the relationship is immature, it's because he is immature, too. Why not work on his growth, independent of the relationship? If he grows up, either the relationship will grow up with him (in which case you have no cause for complaint) or he'll end it.</p>

30

<p>"Should I become proactive in this situation? Should I set conditions for my financial support now at the start of the application process? For instance, should I make it clear that I will not pay for him to attend the same college his girlfriend attends? "</p>

<p>I would do that very thing. If she is as self-serving and manipulative as you say, you need to stop it. My brother married a woman like that in a very similar situation and has had a lifetime of misery since. My parents tried to let it run its course, were wonderful to the girl, etc., but the first thing she did after getting the wedding ring was begin her campaign to end his relationship with his family. I have not seen my brother in over five years.</p>

31

<p>zoosermom, that sucks! I hope your brother is happy.</p>

32

<p>"The more you intervene the more you will push them together. This phenom is documented extensively in the peer review. You have no choice but to do nothing --any ultimatum will backfire. "</p>

<p>I vehemently disagree with this. THe control of the financial aspect of college will be the parents' last chance to put a stop to this situation. The couple may stay together from a distance, but this is the best hope. Don't do nothing.</p>

33

<p>"I'm asking because the things you posted that she is doing - inviting your son on vacations, inviting him to spend the night - sound to me like there's a slight possibility that her views are identical to yours, and she may be playing the card of encouraging them to be together as much as possible and concealing her disapproval"</p>

<p>It sounds more likely to me that she sees a gravy train that she wants to latch her daughter to.</p>

34

<p>"Full disclosure: The author of this post has been married for 30 years to someone she met while still in high school. If my parents -- or his parents -- had fought the situation the same way you are considering fighting it, they would never have known their grandchildren. The younger generation can play hardball, too.)"</p>

<p>I've been married for over 20 to my high school sweetheart. I see nothing wrong with that. It's the manipulative part of the OP that made my hair stand on end. I would strongly urge my son (even to issuing an ultimatum) to go to the best school for him, but I wouldn't bring her up. I'd make the ultimatum about not choosing a lesser school.</p>

35

<p>"If he broke up with this girlfriend and met a new girl at college, wouldn't the problem be the same?"</p>

<p>Maybe because my sister-in-law is so deeply pathological, not to mention vicious and manipulative, I could be reading more into the OP's description of the girl. I wouldn't think the problems would be the same if the girlfriend were a nice, normal, civilized girl.</p>

36

<p>OP, I hope you are the Dad. I would probably take a different tact with a mom (but maybe not) . Please understand that I am writing as if I was having a conversation with a male friend. It is not my intention to offend although it is my intention to slap you upside the head. ;)</p>

<p>Where have you been ? Off-shore oil rig? Incommunicado on an Artic expedition? Coma? </p>

<p>7th grade? You let a kid stay in an exclusive relationship since 7th grade? I've got to say, that was not a great idea. </p>

<p>Where was the word "no"? As in , "No. You cannot go to the Cape with your 8th grade girlfriend and her mother." Or "Hell, no. You are not sleeping over at your 9th grade girlfriend's house. Are you high? And by the way , you now have a part-time job at the Burger Doodle . You start Friday night." Or my favorite- "You are 14 years old. You can't have a steady girlfriend at your age. It's not healthy and nothing good will come of it." </p>

<p>Now that you've let this grow for a third of his life you want to issue ultimatums ? Threats? Put your foot down? Draw a line in the sand? Good Golly, Miss Molly. Are you trying to raise an axe murderer? The time for most of the "No's" has passed.</p>

<p>If you are serious about the missed opportunities at the colleges you consider Top Colleges and equally serious about lowering or eliminating your financial support if he is only eating from the salad bar at the HYPSDMC buffet (and I'll trust your read on this particular relationship's ill effects) , how about this as an approach? </p>

<p>"Son, I love you unconditionally but I have made horrible mistakes in raising you. I should have told you 'no' many more times than I did. I apologize for sticking my head in the sand all these years. </p>

<p>My permissive attitude has created a situation with this BF/GF relationship which I do not approve of and that I believe is dangerous to your future success and happiness. I know you disagree and that is your right. I know that the time for ultimatums has passed and there will be none. I know also that you are in this committed relationship and that it will probably continue unabated through college. I can accept that. </p>

<p>But being as I can accept that the exclusive relationship will continue, I don't believe that a $200,000 undergraduate education is something I can support . I'll be upfront about it and tell you that I can't support it because I feel strongly that the sort of relationship you presently have with Amanda , whether it be with Amanda or not, will limit your experience at a Top College. But please know that if you had decided to make other lifestyle choices which would have limited your socialization and participation at college in the same way and to the same degree, I wouldn't pay $200,000 for that either. This isn't about Amanda. It's about you. It's about you and the rewards of attendance at a Top School and the costs. It is not punishment. It is my cost/benefit analysis done in the clear light of your stated intentions. </p>

<p>These 'rewards' that are made available to you at Top Schools are not entirely quantifiable. Some feel they don't exist at all but I disagree. I value them highly but I recognize that they are a luxury item. They are not necessary for a happy and fulfilling life. The classroom education you receive at a top 100 school will be virtually indistinguishable. These Top College rewards are not handed to you but have to be earned at the school by activity and full-engagement and participation. IMO, an almost-married person will miss out on much of what is available whether the almost-spouse is on campus or not. </p>

<p>We need to explain the rules for your college search. You should only consider schools where your stats will make you an attractive candidate for scholarships, or schools where the costs are comparable to our state flagship honor's college. You should know that I am very proud of your work and you should be proud that your work gives you these choices. There are many excellent schools , some very highly rated that you will be able to afford. You will be an attractive candidate at all merit aid granting schools. I will help in anyway I can. But it is my duty to the rest of the family and our future not to squander money. </p>

<p>I have to respect the decisions you have made and will make and I will never withhold my love or affection. I hope you will do the same. I love you forever and always. </p>

<p>Now, what do you think of Centre? Top 50 LAC. I think you'd be a great candidate for merit aid. or how about UMiami ? With your stats it looks like you might can get a full-tuition scholarship. We can fly down next month. And don't forget that Vandy gives out a few scholarships even though they are a top twenty school. And what about Emory ? It's in the South but not really 'of' the South"</p>

<p>Honesty has it's place. I think now is a good time to try it. JMO. And if he makes the decision to forego the "Top College" route, let him. (Now, if it's not the truth - then you need to rethink your opposition;) Is it about education or control?)</p>

<p>I wish you much good luck .</p>

37

<p>lol i like curmudgeons "speech." it gets the job done (gets the goals established) without alienating the son</p>

38

<p>Bowing to a master. Curmudgeon, you are amazing.</p>

39

<p>The one thing that stood out in my mind is the "manipulative" nature of the girl and the shyness of the boy. I wonder whether Son really wants to stay in this relationship, or is he still there because it's what he's known and he doesn't know how to get out? Son may be looking for an excuse to get out of it.</p>

<p>Perhaps a discussion of what Son expects college life to be like - discuss the extracurriculars? Ask him to think about how Amanda would fit into that life or what impact the relationship might have on the college experience, particularly if they're not at the same school. </p>

<p>One source that I've really liked, and which may help, is the book called "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk" by Adele Faber and Elaine Mazlish. It had lots of great tips, particularly for talking to boys.</p>

40

<p>I agree with Curmudgeon on one major point: You need to accept that your son is in a committed relationship and that this relationship is likely to continue.</p>

<p>What I don't agree with is the basic premise that the existence of this relationship would prevent your son from taking advantages of the opportunities at a top college. </p>

<p>I went to a college in US News's top 20, and I was in a committed relationship throughout college with a guy whom I had met at a summer job while I was still in high school. For the first two years, my boyfriend and I were on separate campuses, five hours apart. For the last two years, we were on the same campus (he was two years ahead of me, and he came to my school to do his graduate work). The existence of this relationship did not prevent either of us from doing very well academically, participating in campus activities and events, making friends (separately and together), and otherwise taking advantage of the opportunities available at college. The only opportunity we missed out on was the opportunity to have sex with other people. </p>

<p>Your son has done well academically in high school and has apparently found the time to study and to participate in extracurricular activities despite the "demands" of a girlfriend whom you perceive to be clingy. Evidently, he knows how to budget his time and energy. Why wouldn't this continue in college?</p>

<p>I really don't think your rationale for your choice about whether or not to offer your son sufficient money to allow him to attend a top college holds water. To me, it sounds like you're simply blackmailing him -- that you're saying, "If you want the money from me, you have to break up with Amanda." I am afraid that he will perceive it that way, too, and that therefore he will resent you for the rest of his life for putting him in this position. Also, you need to recognize that neither you nor your son really wants him to be the kind of person who would break up with someone he loves for financial gain. That's what you're asking him to do, isn't it?</p>