@jwalche, as I think I mentioned earlier, one of my kids decided she liked her safety as well as the higher ranked schools she got into. It turned out to be perfect for her. It is hard work to find a safety you really like, but not impossible. Hurrah for the OP to giving a lot of attention to safeties.
Seconding @intparent’s experience – the top two schools on my son’s list at the moment are his two safest admits, one of which he’s already in to EA. While not the most selective schools on his list, they happen to be strong in exactly what he’s looking for, and will probably also make the most sense for us financially. I’ll readily admit that it took a lot of research and some good luck to arrive at this place. But it is certainly not impossible to be genuinely enthused about one’s safeties.
@blossom: Good points.
I think it’s great you are looking carefully for “safeties” that your D will actually like. My daughter also showed a preference for small LACs and we found some nice ones (already mentioned by another poster) in the PNW. Whitman is a gem, and Willamette and Puget Sound both give merit aid and have pretty high admissions rates while still being very nice colleges. Lewis & Clark is another one out there. I don’t think anything around a 20% admissions rate can be a safety, since LACs can be a bit quirky with admissions – many are looking very carefully at fit, not just stats. We know a couple of kids who were complete shut out from all the selective LACs they applied to although they had the stats to be admitted.
My student’s search was shaped by need for significant merit aid so we have a lot of experience researching and visiting schools where he was a sure thing with admission and merit. NESCACs came right off list since they are financial aid only, no merit, same with Franklin & Marshall.
We visited 10-15 LACs, and were tremendously impressed by the quality of academics, opportunities and students at the CTCL schools we saw, plus others outside the top 20 rankings. College of Wooster, Kalamazoo, Knox, Earlham, Beloit, Lawrence would almost certainly – depending on recs and essays as well as stats and ECs – give your daughter significant awards. Dickinson, Denison and St Lawrence also give significant merit, ranging from $10-about $24k.
Another consideration is that some of the midwest and southern schools have lower tuition, sometimes a full $10k less, than is common at some of the east coast schools, and that is like a $10 k merit award right there. Centre is still under $40k a year, I believe. Knox and some others are closer to $42k a year with room and board around $8, so you are looking at $50 a year rather than $60+.
These are vibrant communities with great opportunities for students. If Ohio were not an absolute bar, I would definitely look at Wooster and Denison. For a MB kid, Wooster is one of the few LACs with a MB (and they march in kilts, how cool is that!). Wooster also has a strong music program, as does Knox, Denison, and of course, Lawrence University, where we were impressed with the music opportunities for the non-Conservatory student, a very different feel from Oberlin.
Good luck, lots of great options out there.
Thanks again to everyone for the continued feedback and ideas. Just to kind of re center things, let me explain where I am at. I am trying to use the collective wisdom of this board to think through which schools are and are not true “safety” schools for my daughter. So we are clear, I am not suggesting that a safety school needs to check all of her personal desires. But nor do I think that any school which checks the financial and admissions box automatically becomes a good safety school. No offense intended, but I do not think that Ohio State (for example), with its 60,000 undergrads less than two hours from home is a great safety option for a kid who wants to go “away” for school and who has shied away from any schools with an enrollment above say 10,000 just because she probably gets in and I can afford it.
The goal, to me, is to find a school or two that meet as many of her desires as possible (size, location, vibe, majors, etc) while providing a certain level of financial security to us as parents with a reasonable expectation of admittance. The rub is in what is a “reasonable expectation of admittance” on the one hand, and what is “financial security” on the other.
As an example from the financial side, many here have suggested schools which they believe may be good fits based on an assumption of a good merit aid award. In point of fact, my daughter has a school like that (although not one of those mentioned) on her “safety” list right now. The admit rate is in the 50% range, and her stats are well above the 75% line. Based on the EFC, we could not afford to send her without a substantial merit award. She reported to us that when the rep came to her high school, the rep told our daughter that with a GPA of x and an ACT of y, she would receive one of two scholarships that would make that school affordable. Perusing the website of the school, however, indicates to me that those scholarships are competitive, not automatic. I am unsure about using such a school as a “safety” because as long as the award of merit is discretionary, there is an unquantifiable chance you are not going to get it. I look at that the same way I look at stats above the 75% line and low overall admit rates.
To be specific, right now, her safety list has four schools. One is on her list of top schools overall. But it is only a safety if she hits NMSF (it will likely be close, won’t know until September). One is the school where substantial merit would be required described above. Two are schools that seem to hit many of her personal boxes (but not all), where her stats are above the 75% line and the EFC is something we could meet but with admit rates in the high 20% range (one may be in the mid 30%s). These two schools in particular are probably only worth a visit as safety schools, and that is one of the things I am trying to clarify in my mind with this discussion.
Replace OSU with one of the other fine Ohio in state options, will be more of a safety admission wise and will likely be affordable without merit aid of very cheap with it, since she will be very competitive. As someone above mentioned, a large school often feels small, especially if you put in the effort to find your peeps through special housing, or clubs, or academics … and that effort is a positive life experience too (adult life after college requires more effort in finding your peeps anyway).
Wanting to go out of state for the sake of being OOS is sort of a childish high school thing. Being closer to home has advantages in cost and convenience and being able to hang out at home for the day or pick up another laundry basket without any expense or time commitment. If you want to be in the south … maybe … but I don’t get to live in my favorite city as an adult either, and I am not going to commit financial or career fiasco to do it.
The goal is to have one or more choices at the end of this all that you can pick based on whatever criteria you choose, or preferably based on a longer visit and more information … the best choice is an elusive goal … and any choice is better than none. OSU or community college, likely she would pick OSU, but you don’t have to get yourself into that predicament. The safeties are not your first choice, but they are acceptable choices if things don’t go well.
School where you need competitive merit is a target school and unless the application is very costly or you have some hard limit, just send them an application too … .and have safeties. When you get accepted with a scholarship, it is now a good option … and maybe makes that last round before deposit is sent …
Spreadsheets are nice, but thinking you are going to check 10 out of 10 boxes seems like it is a road to disappointment. Trades are helpful, this school is smaller but school Y has a better English department and is cheaper, nicer, better location, whatever.
Many choices just make it more likely you will find a winner, but can make choosing a better experience overall … and more importantly … finding a good school to keep her happy for 4 years …
Further thoughts – my younger one did not apply to our public flagship as a safety because, regardless of learning communities etc., he knew he would not be successful in lectures of 100+. With our older one at a major flagship, we know enough about his experience – superb for him – that it was wrong for our younger. So you won’t get any argument from me that your flagship would be an appropriate safety if your daughter is not comfortable in that kind of learning environment.
The challenge is, for LACs, fit, contribution to campus, and interest are all essential elements for acceptance, and those factors are too “soft” to use to calculate admissions chances. I would never be comfortable treating schools with acceptance rates in the 20 and 30% range as safeties. At that level, far more than stats are in play, and it is simply not predictable whether a specific kid, who is well in range of a specific school, will actually be admitted. To get to admissions safety range, I would recommend aiming for the US News LACs which are ranked from around 40-75. There are a number of those schools which use non-binding EA, and a student can have a nice range of acceptances by late Nov-early Dec, and be able to filter their list for regular apps to remove any additional safeties.
In terms of affordability, a school which requires essays etc. for the merit level you need to make if affordable, is not a safety. If you look at schools like Lawrence, Beloit, Centre, Kalamazoo, Earlham, Knox etc., they award merit based simply on the application, no additional materials, up to about 1/2 tuition merit awards. Your daughter would want her application to show that she brings something more than just good stats to campus – her application would need to be infused with a sense of what she would contribute, maybe if she continues with music and reaches out to meet with music faculty when she visits etc.
Finally, though in Ohio, Denison student body is quite diverse geographically as well as socio-economically, and Wooster has 65% non-Ohio kids, so I would not neglect to consider them simply because they are Ohio schools.
Good luck.
I’m certainly risk-averse, but I would not have made it through senior year if we had defined safeties as schools with 20-30% acceptance rates even if my kid was in the top 25% of admitted students. For LACs, where admission is not predictable based on stats, I would consider a safety a school with at least 50% acceptance rate, for a kid with stats like the OP’s daughter, who has ALSO shown interest, been on campus, met with faculty in their areas of interest etc.
And, as I seem to have too much time on my hands today, I went back to read some of OP’s prior posts about his daughter. Sounds like Vassar was a nice fit, so if you are looking for similar feel schools, that are admissions safeties with good merit, then try to identify the key aspects of Vassar that appealed to her.
Open curriculum, quirky kids, intellectual environment, no greek life? Look at Kalamazoo college (Grinnell would be another reach/match, as the acceptance rate is in the 20% range). If artsy is more important than open curriculum, look at Knox, Earlham (and as others have suggested, Muhlenberg). If music is a most important consideration, Lawrence or St Olaf. A few well-thought out EA schools will get her acceptance with merit (though we didn’t visit St Olaf so I can’t speak about their merit) by Dec, allowing her to focus on the key match/reach school applications.
Living in the midwest, it made it a little easier to separate from the prestige-quest that is my friends’ process back east. Once we got on campus at places like K, Wooster, Earlham, Lawrence, etc. I was impressed by the quality of the faculty, the teaching, the programs, and the opportunities.
Good luck!
@Midwestmomofboys I agree with you about the challenge with LAC’s being about fit, etc and that does make it harder to really judge where she might be admitted. We did look a bit at Wooster and Denison, but neither meet the financial criteria absent discretionary merit aid. And by the way you pegged it pretty well, she is firmly on Team Vassar at the moment. Dad, maybe not so much (dated a Vassar girl way back in the day - long story).
@PickOne1 realistically, Miami of Ohio is the “ideal” state school safety in this circumstance. “Good” school, still far enough away from home to be “away”, bigger than what she would like but not huge, decent access to a city and automatic merit aid based on stats that would make it very affordable without loans. So Miami was what we (mom and I) thought of as the safety school for much of the past year. But as time has progressed, and our daughter has developed a pretty strong preference for smaller schools and being in a different geographic region, we are rethinking that position. Maybe there are better “safety” schools out there for her. Basically, I am trying to engage in the kind of “trading” you are referring to, just adding financial security and admissions chances to the list as it were.
And for what it is worth, I am not sure that the things which she seems to find significant are necessarily “I want a pony” type things. She is not likely to do well in lecture classes of 200 kids, and in systems where she has to deal with the bureaucracy to take and change classes, etc. I get that, because I was the same way. I also do not think it is necessarily unwise to want to be in a different geographic region for college. While many schools attract geographically diverse students, it is undeniable that colleges are also influenced heavily by their surroundings. I don’t find it ill advised to wish to experience a different part of the country during undergrad. Does that mean that all of the factors she is looking for must be satisfied at each school? Of course not. But my thinking is the more “boxes” she can check the more likely she will be happy, and consequently have a positive college experience.
@Ohiodad51 – depending on how much merit aid you need, I think Wooster and Denison are pretty close to sure things for merit for your D if her recs and essays are strong and she shows interest. In fact, Wooster has merit factored in to their net price calculator so that might give you peace of mind. And Wooster also does non-binding EA so she would know admission/merit in December with enough notice if she needed to apply elsewhere. I also think Muhlenberg would be pretty much a sure thing. For some frame of reference, my D13 (32 ACT, 4.5 W GPA/3.8ish UW with 6 APs and but mostly honors courses in math/science and a few Bs sprinkled in, theatre kid but mostly in-school experience, involved in some community service , singer in choir/a capella group and also accomplished but not-ultra competitive figure skater) received a $40K per year from Denison and about $24K at Muhlenberg (which she didn’t even visit, did video audition instead due to blizzard during planned trip). The bulk of Muhlenberg $$ as I recall was academic with a few thousand thrown in for talent. A girl who graduated the year prior from her HS also received one of Denison’s named scholarship offers of $40K per year (she attended and will graduate this year). Others we know with similar academic records and sports achievements received $20K per year offers. Denison is known to be very generous.
A word about Muhlenberg, if she is planning on participating in theatre. D knows several who attend there and are theater majors. They love it but there are something like 50 majors per class (which is huge given the overall size of the school) so it is very competitive to get cast in department sponsored shows. D’s friend mostly performs in student-run shows which are still a great experience.
Oh and D has friend at Miami who had been admitted to NYU Tisch School for theatre and was all set to go when they discovered that the financial aid award was in error (I think something to do with non-custodial parent but not sure). In any case, this friend is a Bio major at Miami but is heavily involved in theatre, has been cast a lot, and is loving the experience (despite his extreme initial disappointment in his circumstances.
Ohiodad,
" realistically, Miami of Ohio is the “ideal” state school safety in this circumstance. “Good” school, still far enough away from home to be “away”, bigger than what she would like but not huge, decent access to a city and automatic merit aid based on stats that would make it very affordable without loans. So Miami was what we (mom and I) thought of as the safety school for much of the past year. But as time has progressed, and our daughter has developed a pretty strong preference for smaller schools and being in a different geographic region, we are rethinking that position. Maybe there are better “safety” schools out there for her."
- You may refer back to my previous post if you wish. I was talking about my own D. experience with her pick of college. As I said before, my D. had similar stats to yours = GPA=4.0uw / ACT=33. Ironically enough, my D. attended Miami of OH. Her experiences there went way beyond our expectations in all aspects and in every one of her own personal goals. She even had an opportunity to go to NZ (on additional Merit scholarship money) andto visit the grounds of filming “The Lord of the Rings”, the lifelong dream. But besides that, she had completed all of her pre-med ECs at Miami, great Medical Research lad internship, the best job on campus as a Supplemental Instructor to Chem prof, and many other opportunities that she took advantage of. At the end, she was accepted to 4 medical schools, 2 in top 20s, that also went well beyond what was expected. She also had 2 minors, one in Music and this was one of her best experiences there. One very valuable experience was taking Spanish class. She had only one semester of Spanish at Miami and was able to speak Spanish which she is still using with her Spanish speaking patients as a 1st year resident. I can go on and on and on…but the best part was that we did not pay tuition at Miami, she got full tuition Merit award there.
D. was also accepted to several other schools and was considering Case Western (close to full tuition Merit award) and OSU. But at the end Miami was the best match for her and now looking back she would not change her choice.
As I mentioned previously, D. never divided her schools on safety and such. However, she was applying to very selective programs at every college and such a program at Miami had only 10 spots. So, she considered herself honored to be accepted to such selective program. The Honors college at Miami at a time when D. applied also was selective. It accepted only top 200 applicants who were top 2% of their HS class with the ACT=31+. D. was one of these 200.
I wish your kid the best in making decision choosing the school !
@Ohiodad51 At Wooster, there is an online calculator which predicts merit award based on academic/EC record alone, not financial need. People actually look at the input, the answer is not automatically generated, as we received a letter about 3 weeks later. But it predicted at least $20k for my kid, which gave us a safe floor to work from. He wound up getting more from Wooster than predicted. If she wanted to continue marching band, there are additional merit awards for the Wooster MB.
Denison would likely be pretty close to a sure thing in terms of significant merit. Its awards start at $16 this year, and go up to $20 and $24, simply based on the application. With interest, visits, interview, etc. plus her stats, she is almost certainly going to get at least $16 and most likely more.
I agree with @SlackerMomMD post #14. Take a look at Hendrix. 50% OOS students. Very self-selecting student body. Many may have applied as their safety, but along the way fell in love with Hendrix and/ or found it to be the most affordable school on their list - including their state public.
Parents will love the strong STEM fields and nurturing environment.
Does your D have interest in continuing her instrument in college? More merit to stack on top of Academic and Odyssey merit. File the FAFSA by March 1? Auto $1K merit added. Senior in HS? Plan a visit between December and March - add $500 to your merit package. This last one is a new approach to get prospective students to campus. Because they know what a hidden gem they have.
The new president has been there for 18 months now and he is doing incredible things.
Those schools may be good “match” school with high chances of admissions – but they are not safeties. Because small colleges also tend to have more holistic admission practices, your daughter’s test scores and stats aren’t all that useful in predicting results in that context. Look for schools with 50%+ admit rates for “safety” territory.
I’d add that the picture might changes somewhat if your daughter does end up with NMSF finalist status. My impression is that if a kid has stats in the upper range together with the NMSF qualification, there is a very high likelihood admission at particular schools which actively recruit NMSF students (usually by offering some sort of special or guaranteed scholarship or tuition discount).
I’d note that years ago my daughter ended up getting into colleges that were reaches with lower admit rates but not into colleges that had been seen as “matches” based on stats. I think that’s because we did a better job of targeting the reaches, looking for colleges that were likely to value my daughter’s particular strengths – and put less effort into considering whether my DD had the qualities the “match” schools were looking for. (They didn’t outright reject her, but they waitlisted her). So don’t make the mistake of assuming the numbers tell you the whole story as to admission likelihood.
Also, if you are applying for financial aid, keep in mind that not all schools are need-blind – so even if a school looks like a good bet on paper, the financial issues could be a tip factor that impacts admissions chances negatively. That could have been a factor in those waitlist decisions for my DD.
Though not unheard of (as others have mentioned). My oldest really likes Colgate and Wellesley, and plans on applying to one or both mainly to see if she can get in, but her real top preference is either Earlham or Muhlenberg (or maybe Mt Holyoke), depending on the day you ask her.
I think your DD is an excellent candidate for merit aid at many SLACs. But if you want to add some financial safeties that meet your DD’s desire for a smaller school, there are several small public schools that have reasonable OOS tuition. Consider Truman State, SUNY Geneseo, UNC-Asheville, University of Minnesota-Morris.
I was just going to list basically what @dclily said. My D wants OOS and good academics. She is looking for “not too big, not too small” and loved Truman State. Cost is excellent for us parents. Others listed above have also been on our list.
@twoinanddone What is the school your D’s friend goes to?
I don’t get sending your kid to an OOS boarding school (or exclusive private day school for that matter) and having it jeopardize their funds for college. I saw a lot of that when I lived in St Louis - sending your kids to the exclusive day schools and then there was “no money” for college so they attended Southwest Missouri State along with all the other so-called public high school dregs they were so eager to avoid. Made zero sense.