Help me expand my college list? (top LACs w/ strong science programs)

College Search & Selection
1

<p>Hello! I am looking to expand the list of colleges that I will be applying to in the next few months. Thank you in advance for taking the time to offer me advice!</p>

<p>I have lots of interests and don't know yet what I want to major in, so the liberal arts model that strives for well-roundedness and strong critical thinking really appeals to me. Schools with a lot of emphasis on interdisciplinary study are even better. However, science is one of my major interests, so I'm looking for liberal arts colleges that still have strong science programs and lots of funding for undergraduate research.</p>

<p>Other considerations and preferences: Good community in and out of the classroom. Intellectual, but more cooperative than competitive. Classes taught by professors. Not a huge city. Social life doesn't revolve around alcohol and parties. Opportunities for club sports.</p>

<p>Financially, my family is in a good situation, but I would really like to complete undergraduate studies without any debt at all.</p>

<p>Schools that I am definitely applying to: Williams, Middlebury (another of my big interests is in foreign languages/international affairs), Scripps, Pomona, Whitman (home state), and probably University of Washington as well (home state public university as a safety)</p>

<p>Schools that I have looked at and am considering applying to: University of Chicago, Amherst, Bowdoin, Colby, Bates</p>

<p>Schools that I have a good opinion of but don't know much about: Carleton, Tufts, Vassar, Swarthmore, Wellesley, Haverford, Claremont Mckenna, Davidson, Hamilton, Wesleyan</p>

<p>About me:
Home state: WA
Gender: F
Ethnicity: White
GPA: 4.0 UW (school doesn't weight, highest difficulty schedule)
Class rank: 1/225
SAT: 2400 (first sitting)
Subject Tests: 800 Biology M, 800 Math 2, 760 Spanish With Listening
AP: 5's on Biology, European History, Calculus AB, and English Language
ECs: Strong, including leadership roles</p>

<p>I know my academics are really strong, so I want to be sure that the schools I apply to are good fits. Also, what kinds of safety schools should I be looking at?</p>

<p>Again, thank you very much your time! Any advice and any pointers in the right direction are hugely appreciated! :)</p>

2

<p>“Financially, my family is in a good situation, but I would really like to complete undergraduate studies without any debt at all.”</p>

<p>What does this mean? Will your family cover the full sticker price at all these schools?</p>

3

<p>At some of these very selective schools which offer financial aid only (no merit), your family will be expected to pay their EFC (as calculated by the school) even if they don’t want to. Amherst, Williams, Wellesley, Carleton and perhaps others are in this category. Can your family afford 60K per year? The fact that you are a great student will not make any difference in the amount you are expected to pay at these places; admission is the prize, and family resources will determine the price. So you need to talk to your parents and find out how much they are able to pay. Fortunately, you do have very good stats which will get you merit aid at a lot of places that are slightly less selective than some of the schools you have listed.</p>

4

<p>You need to do either a NPC (Net Price Calculator) at those schools or find out your EFC (Expected Family Contribution), and compare that number to what your parents think they can realistically contribute for four years. At most of the top schools you’ve mentioned, the only financial aid they offer is need-based, because ALL students who go there have merit. If your family cannot pay its EFC, you’ll need to take out more loans (often a bad idea - be careful and look at the many threads on this site about “too much debt”), or look at schools that aren’t <strong>quite</strong> as high-level and will give you merit-based scholarships. There are many schools that will give you merit scholarships.</p>

<p>Finances aside, have you considered Harvey Mudd? For merit money, you might consider Rose Hulman or Case Western.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

5

<p>Grinnell is one of the few top LACs that offers merit, as well as financial aid. It also has outstanding sciences and a strong reputation with grad schools. They also have an enormous endowment (which is part of the reason that they are so generous with financial aid and merit money) so there is a lot of financial support for student research and other initiatives. For more info, see: </p>

<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/grinnell-college/438138-why-grinnell.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/grinnell-college/438138-why-grinnell.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

6

<p>A while back I compiled a list of the percentage of students majoring in the natural sciences and STEM at the top 60 LACs. Although this is not necessarily an indication of program strength, it does give you some idea of where you are most likely to find like-minded individuals. </p>

<p>Harvey Mudd (obviously), Pomona, Carleton, St. Olaf, and Colby have especially large numbers of science majors. </p>

<p>Given your interest in both science and international affairs, I think Bowdoin deserves a particularly close look. Its science programs are superb, and it has one of the most best locations for biology and geology of any LAC. Additionally, its government program is - like Claremont McKenna’s - exceptionally strong for a LAC.</p>

<p>Natural Sciences:


1. Pomona 28.3%
2. Harvey Mudd 26.2%
3. Colby 25.4% 
4. Carleton 25.4% 
5. St. Olaf 24.2%
6. Colorado College 23.9%
7. Scripps 23.8%
8. Gettysburg 22.8%
9. Mount Holyoke 22.4%
10. Rhodes 21.9%
11. Oberlin 20.8%
12. Middlebury 20.6%
13. Occidental 20.4% 
14. Williams 20.4% 
15. Union 20.4% 
16. Franklin & Marshall 20.3% 
17. Whitman 20.3% 
18. Lawrence 20.3% 
19. Bowdoin 20.0%
20. Macalester 19.9%
21. Wellesley 19.6%
22. Dickinson 19.0%
23. DePauw 18.7%
24. Denison 18.7% 
25. Hamilton 18.1%
26. Haverford 17.9%
27. Grinnell 17.7%
28. St. Lawrence 17.5%
29. Reed 17.3%
30. Swarthmore 16.8%
31. Willamette 16.7%
32. Beloit 16.2%
33. Bates 16.0% 
34. Bryn Mawr 16.0% 
35. Lafayette 15.9%
36. Sewanee 15.8%
37. Wabash 15.7%
38. Colgate 15.5% 
39. Smith 15.5%
40. Vassar 15.4%
41. Amherst 15.2%
42. Bucknell 14.7%
43. Centre 14.7%
44. Wesleyan 13.6% 
45. Furman 13.6%
46. Skidmore 13.1%
47. Barnard 13.0%
48. Davidson 12.9%
49. Washington & Lee 12.7%
50. Connecticut College 12.4%
51. Pitzer 12.3% 
52. Trinity College 10.9%
53. Holy Cross 10.9% 
54. Kenyon 9.95%
55. Claremont McKenna 9.46%
56. Wheaton (IL) 9.01%
57. University of Richmond 8.64%

STEM: 


1. Harvey Mudd 93.0%
2. Lafayette 41.7%
3. Pomona 36.0%
4. Bucknell 35.3%
5. Carleton 34.8%
6. St. Olaf 33.0%
7. Union 31.4%
8. Colby 31.0%
9. Scripps 28.6%
10. Williams 27.6%
11. Swarthmore 27.1%
12. Colorado College 26.7%
13. Grinnell 25.9%
14. Lawrence 25.8%
15. Mount Holyoke 25.6%
16. Gettysburg 25.2%
17. Oberlin 25.0% 
17. Wabash 25.0%
19. St. Lawrence 25.0%
20. Macalester 24.4%
21. Bryn Mawr 24.1%
22. Bowdoin 23.9%
23. Hamilton 23.7% 
24. Whitman 23.7%
25. Middlebury 23.4%
26. Wellesley 22.9%
27. Franklin & Marshall 22.7%
28. Rhodes 22.6%
29. Reed 22.6% 
30. DePauw 22.4%
31. Haverford 22.0%
32. Smith 21.5%
33. Occidental 21.3%
34. Centre 20.8%
35. Willamette 20.5%
36. Dickinson 20.4%
37. Amherst 20.3%
38. Denison 20.2%
39. Beloit 20.1%
40. Colgate 18.4%
41. Vassar 18.1%
42. Washington & Lee 18.0%
43. Bates 17.8%
44. Sewanee 17.6%
45. Wesleyan 17.3%
46. Trinity College 16.8%
47. Furman 16.3%
48. Davidson 16.1%
49. Skidmore 15.5%
50. Connecticut College 15.3%
51. Barnard 14.7%
52. Holy Cross 14.5%
53. Claremont McKenna 13.9%
54. Wheaton (IL) 13.3%
55. Pitzer 13.1%
56. Kenyon 11.8%
57. University of Richmond 11.4%

</p>

7

<p>Thank you for your comments! I just had a very good conversation with my dad about what my family is able and willing to pay. He says that based on past Net Price calculations we’ve done, my parents will be able to pay the EFC at any of these schools. He encouraged me to focus on academic and community fit.</p>

<p>GeekMom63, I have not looked at Harvey Mudd as much as some of the other Claremont Colleges because I truly don’t know if I will major in a STEM field - right now, it’s only one of multiple interests that I’m interested in exploring further at the collegiate level. The whole CC system seems very interesting, though, and I like the idea of being able to take classes at Harvey Mudd through cross-registration if I do end up focusing on STEM.</p>

<p>M’s Mom, thank you! Grinnell sounds promising, and I will definitely check it out.</p>

<p>warblersrule, what interesting lists! This seems like a good starting point in comparing programs, thank you! I visited Bowdoin over spring break and liked it very much. It’s good to know that it has strong programs in some of my areas of interest.</p>

8

<p>The only schools on your list that are reaches are Williams, Amherst, Swarthmore, Pomona, and U Chicago. All the others are between “pretty safe” and “shoo-in”. </p>

<p>You’re a terrific candidate with a compelling vision of what you want. I think your list is shaping up well, but you might consider cutting down on safeties unless you <em>love</em> them. Scripps? Grinnell? Bates? Colby? Whitman? Hamilton? UW? These schools take you for sure. Do you need to apply to all of them?</p>

<p>(Caveat: I’m a Williams alum & you should go there haha)</p>

9

<p>Reed is another LAC in the Pacific NW that you might want to consider. As a science nerd, you may prefer its academic atmosphere to Whitman’s.</p>

<p>How big a gap is there (if any) between your EFC and the full cost of attendance? If it’s significant, consider what percentage of determined need each school covers, on average, and the percentage of grant aid v. “self help” aid (work study & loans). This information is in the Common Data Set file, section H. All the LACs you’ve listed offer good to excellent need-based aid, but a few may offer a little less than 100% on average, or cover a relatively large amount with “self help”.</p>

<p>Chicago is the only research university on your list. It meets all your criteria, except that it’s in a large city. In some respects (class size, curriculum) it is the most LAC-like of the top 10 national universities. If you’re looking for strong science programs, with an interdisciplinary bent and lots of research funding, you’ll find resources there that no LAC can match (along with smaller class sizes than some of the LACs on your list*).
[Institute</a> for Molecular Engineering](<a href=“http://molecularengineering.uchicago.edu/]Institute”>http://molecularengineering.uchicago.edu/)</p>

<p>*Average Class Sizes (< 20, >=50), w/rounding of numbers >= 10%
Chicago (75%, 4.9%)
Whitman (62%, < 1%)
Wesleyan (68%, 4.8%)
Bates (67%, 2.7%)</p>

<p>(U Washington (34%, 21%))</p>

10

<p>marvin100, no worries, I am definitely not planning to apply to all of those! I am hoping that advice from CC can point me towards which of the schools in this general genre would seem to be a good fit for me. As a student from the Northwest, I don’t have the same perspective on East Coast and Midwest colleges as those who live in the area, so I’m curious what the conventional wisdom is about the distinctions between those schools that often, from afar, look a lot alike.</p>

<p>tk21769, wow, thank you for pointing me towards the Common Data Set! I can already see that will be extremely helpful. Within section H, which specific entries should I be looking at for the statistic you describe about what percentage of determined need each school covers? How can I tell that?</p>

<p>And yes, University of Chicago is a little different from the other schools I’m looking at, but I agree that it has advantages I may not find other places. I think it’s a good option to keep looking at!</p>

11

<p>For need-based financial aid, go to each college’s web site and try the net price calculator to get an estimate of financial aid for your situation.</p>

12

<p>

Bryn Mawr offers PhD programs in chemistry, physics, and math, as well as world-famous programs in classics and archaeology.</p>

13

<p>Might check out Holy Cross.</p>

14

<p>Pomona and Williams are great choices with strong sciences and broad hum/SS offerings. Settings will be very different, almost at opposing ends of the spectrum you’ve defined, LA suburban vs. buccolic rural. Scripps is a wonderful but much more niche place, beautiful jewel boxed campus, but academics, even with cross reg, make it a weak sibling to Pomona for someone with your interests (for some overlapping/some different reasons would also not support CMC).</p>

<p>Outside of Pomona and Williams, I’d probably add Carleton and Swarthmore to round out the top four fits among LACs. Carleton in a historic (think Jesse James) small town lovely semi-rural setting 50 minutes from Minneapolis-St. Paul, Swat with a very pretty suburban locale (think arboretum) with easy access to Philly. Both have very strong sciences and, again, great hum/SS depts. Swat probably the most academically and intellectually intense of all your LAC choices (? of all LACs), Carleton, academically intense as well, but probably the most quirky-fun-refuse-to-take-myself-too-seriously of the bunch.</p>

<ul>
<li>Haverford is certainly worth a look, but its small size and the Bryn Mawr connection must work for you. Jointly, academic offerings are very strong. </li>
<li>Wesleyan is the largest of the LAC choices with broad offerings complete with a small contingent of grad students but still very much a LAC. Strong sciences and probably the best performing/creative arts options among small schools anywhere. </li>
<li>Middlebury may have the prettiest campus of the bunch but competes with Williams for most isolated. Personally feel IR/language strength is overbilled unless there is a particular, obscure, language draw. Athletic, prep, ? alcohol culture may feel stronger here. </li>
<li>Bowdoin, small town Me. with access to small city Portland, feels much less isolated than Williams and Middlebury. Will offer strong sciences, esp. bio/environmental. </li>
<li>And Wellesley, the school I believe could possibly become the most competitive college of any size in the country were it to go co-ed, is a beautiful place a stone’s throw from Boston with great history, great teaching, and, of course, no boys - ball in your court. </li>
</ul>

<p>Amherst, Vassar, Hamilton, Whitman and Davidson are all great places, but seem less of a fit to your profile, esp. with so many other great fits out there (unless remaining in the Pacific NW or heading to the SE is a goal).</p>

<p>And now for unsolicited advice: as much as I love LACs, I would strongly suggest you owe yourself a visit, if at all possible, to at least 1-2 larger schools (maybe not quite as large as UW) to make sure you sample all flavors. Stanford is a reasonable two state drive or plane-hop away and is a phenomenol place. Too large? Maybe. Worth a look? Probably. If you’re willing to cross country, I’d suggest stops at Brown and Princeton, smaller, more historic-traditional. UChicago, as much as I love it, is not just in a “huge city,” it’s very hard-core “city.” Not what comes to mind when I read your query. </p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

15

<p>You should look at Tufts, not technically a LAC but is a great compromise between a small LAC and a research university. About 5,000 undergrads, nice campus just outside Boston, strong in sciences and many graduate programs as well (most are not on the undergrad campus - medical, dental, nutrition, veterinary, biomedical but law and diplomacy, engineering, arts+sciences grad programs are on the main campus).</p>

16

<p>William & Mary?</p>

17

<p>Thank you everybody! This is really helping me get a better sense of a lot of these schools. </p>

<p>1190, thank you so much for your post. I will be sure to take a closer look at Swarthmore, Carleton, and some of the other schools you suggest. If I may ask, what factors about Amherst, Vassar, Hamilton, and Davidson (excluding Whitman because it’s on my list for somewhat different reasons, in case I decide to stay closer to home) seem like less than a fit for me?</p>

<p>As for your “unsolicited advice”, that’s always welcome! I’ve visited Stanford, and the campus is absolutely gorgeous; it did feel rather large, though. I also visited Dartmouth over spring break (the only Ivy on a tour of Williams, Middlebury, Amhert, Bowdoin, etc. - chosen generally for a look outside the genre and specifically for geographic reasons), and it just didn’t feel quite right. Perhaps that size would feel more comfortable to me now, a year or two older than when I visited Stanford, or at a different school like Brown or Princeton with a different flavor. I’ll keep your advice in mind!</p>

18

<p>Haverford just began a 4-1 Engineering program with University of Pennsylvania.
I don’t know much about it. My son is researching it. He wants a LAC and is on the fence with Engineering, so the 4-1 is looking promising to him.</p>

<p>Haverford is small, but laid out nicely. You can walk in town and to the train station.</p>

<p>I am very partial to the Claremonts. Esp love Pomona.</p>

19

<p>Haverford’s neighbor Swarthmore has a “native” engineering degree program (however, only as a general engineering science program for ABET accreditation).</p>

20

<p>I’m not super interested in engineering at this point (it would be biology if I had to pick a STEM field today), but that’s good to know about Haverford and Swarthmore.</p>