Help Me Understand This

Parents Forum
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<p>Am I imagining it? It seems to be on the increase, if that's possible: the single-minded lust for "only top schools." I swear, a couple of years ago on CC, even the student forums were full of posts listing the student's array of colleges. Invariably there would be safeties and matches in there as well. Maybe such lists still exist on the Chances forum, which I haven't visited in quite a long time.</p>

<p>Ditto for PF: Parents reporting that S or D applied "only to ivies," or "all the top schools." Perhaps my memory is exaggerating this, but somehow it feels that way. Maybe there's just some duplication from AF to PF on the part of students.</p>

<p>Distorted memory or not, could someone explain to me the rationale behind applying "only to top schools"? Now, I can see the rationale behind INCLUDING "all the top schools," even though my family would consider such a strategy unwise. Hey, go for it. But if you apply "only" to top schools, what are you saying? That those are the only colleges worth studying at? (Ivy or Bust?) That no place "beneath" those "top schools" deserves your brain? That attending a non-Ivy school is humiliating & not worth a dime? (Surrender and go to trade school?)</p>

<p>Before my older D got her EA Ivy acceptance, she had reaches AND matches AND safeties on her list, and that was a few years ago. She was going to college, period. She was making damn sure she was going to college. A 4-year college. A respectable college. No way would she ever, ever have engaged in such a high-risk strategy as to apply "only to top schools," which even given her own lustrous academic record, could have put her in a position where she was attending no college at all.</p>

<p>And I could see even being misguided in this several years ago. But have large numbers of families not looked at the population charts, the demographics of late? Not reading the published articles, even if they infrequently visit CC? In response to the field becoming MORE competitive (if that's possible), the solution is to throw caution to the wind & become even less self-protective?</p>

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<p>I think there are a lot of kids and parents posting here who are relatively recent immigrants or don't live in US who might not see the whole picture as clearly.</p>

<p>And then some consider "not getting into any schools" being "I got rejected by the Ivies and only got into State U." And I saw a recent thread where I'm pretty sure the OP was posting a fake scenario to provoke reaction.</p>

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<p>Muffy stated it in a more PC manner than I was about to. Can you say, "Asian parents"?</p>

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<p>There have been some posters where I've had a head-shaking "what were they thinking?" reaction, but I notice they are either a new or recent poster. As noted above, some claim to have been rejected/waitlisted everywhere but really do have an acceptance (at a college they'd rather die than attending). Again, usually a new or recent poster.</p>

<p>Conclusion? They found CC too late.</p>

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<p>I don't think it is just immigrant parents...there are an awful lot of parents that I know of who do not go anywhere near this forum or any others for college and who leave everything up to the school so they are unaware of current conventional wisdom. Then it depends on how good/busy or informed your GC is.</p>

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<p>^^ That's true, but the obsession with The Ivy League to the exclusion of all other schools, and the single-minded focus on positioning one's child for the sole purpose of gaining admission, frequently is an Asian-obsession. (not always, of course, but I have seen that admission repeatedly on here by Asian parents AND kids (complaining about their parents).</p>

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<p>From what I can tell (S1 is only in 9th grade), the GCs in our HS try to make sure that kids apply to safety schools. For example, every student applies to one of the SUNYs, even the kids who are trying for very selective schools. But I don't think most people put much thought into selecting safety schools. There are always quite a few kids who are very unhappy at being left with "only" the SUNY school as a possibility. Good friends of ours, whose S is a senior this year, did carefully select the list. It included a not-very-highly-ranked college with a very strong program in the student's area of interest, as well as a SUNY that he would have been willing to go to. As it turned out, he was accepted EA or ED (I'm not sure which) at his first choice, a top LAC. But he would have gone to one of those safeties if nothing else had worked out.</p>

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<p>re#7 Mathson didn't want to go to one of the SUNYs, so he found other safeties. But yes our GC made sure every kid was thinking safeties. That said all the schools he applied to were in the top 70 of USNWR. </p>

<p>I'm pretty well plugged into expectations, U. Penn was my safety, I can't imagine it being anyone's safety any more! But I think there are a lot of kids who apply to all top schools plus the state school without every really thinking that the state school might be their only choice. Many kids seem to think that just applying to more top colleges will increase their chances (and to some extent it will), but too many don't realize that they are not that dissimilar from thousands of other kids. And one more AP isn't going to make them look significantly different.</p>

<p>Honestly, I put the blame on the GCs. It's their job to know what it's like out there.</p>

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<p>Although not safeties, the University of California system allows a student to apply to all 8 UCs with just one application.</p>

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<p>Mathmom, your point is a good one. Kids need to find good safeties. My D is really not interested in any of the SUNYs either, but I would like her to choose at least one to be used as a financial safety. She is being quite difficult at the moment - only wants to look at a few tippy-top schools, and not being realistic. I can't understand why she is being that way as she has just seen many of the top seniors at her school get either rejected or waitlisted at most, if not all, of their top choices. I will have to keep working on her this summer - maybe take her to visit a few schools that are not on her list, just so that she can see that those are not her only options.</p>

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<p>There are hs GC's giving kids bad info on what constitutes a safety, so it's no wonder that parents and kids are confused. Oops, mathmom already said that, but I agree.</p>

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<p>I think that it is part and parcel to the idea a lot of parents have that their child is spectacular. They have raised their kids with a sense of entitlement and the kids always HAVE gotton what they want so not even those pesky statistics can disuade them from their belief that they will beat the odds. Because of course they are spectacular.</p>

<p>Sure they hear about how Joe and Ellie , the two top students from their hs who have been rejected/waitlisted by all the Ivies but they KNOW that can't happen to them. They are sure that Ellie's mousey bookishness and Joe's arrogance must have come through in their interviews and those school want someone more like me/my kid. </p>

<p>In the name of insuring self-esteem many parents have fostered the idea that their child really can do anything they set their mind to. Our kids are told that if they work hard participate in some great ECs and volunteer in their communities they will be able to grab that college experience at a top 15 school. It's faulty reasoning only because of simple math. The reality of the situation is; there isn't room for all of the tens of thousands of specatacular students who desire admission to those elite colleges. But still many of these students and their parents know with irrational certainty that their spectacular qualities will be enough to overcome that whole math problem nonsense and secure them a place in several top 15 schools.</p>

<p>It follows then that these parents have a thought process that goes like this: "Safeties with acceptance rates above 30% are for dull children. My child's saftey strategy is to apply to all 20 of the top schools that way he/she'll have a choice from only the best." I do believe that a whole bunch of these families are getting good advice but they are refusing to listen. Ther really think that the rules of mathmatics will step aside for their spectacular child. </p>

<p>Re GC's I am sure it's true that many of them aren't advising their students to get realistic safties. Ours I think undersell options. Almost everyone goes to a safety.</p>

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<p>The reality of the situation is; there isn't room for all of the tens of thousands of specatacular students who desire admission to those elite colleges. But still many of these students and their parents know with irrational certainty that their spectacular qualities will be enough to overcome that whole math problem nonsense and secure them a place in several top 15 schools</p>

<p>Totally agree. Which makes this an exercise in futility to a certain extent of 'planning' to get to the Ivies. It also makes entrance to an Ivy somewhat of a crapshoot. Do what you love, do it well and remember that life isn't always fair. That's the best advice I think any parent can give.</p>

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<p>"There are hs GC's giving kids bad info on what constitutes a safety, so it's no wonder that parents and kids are confused."</p>

<p>Good point. And all of the other responses so far are great points as well.</p>

<p>In our case, I'm pleased to see that our GC at the private has been lowering expectations for awhile, but particularly did during this current application/admission year. Unfortunately, I think part of her motivation is Cover Her Fanny. (Rich, powerful parents creating headaches for the school -- prolonged time-consuming complaints, etc.). However, at least the information & warnings have been there, & I don't know of "only" bad results so far from D's class. Plenty of disappointments, & people heading toward Match schools instead of Reaches, & occasionally an attractive Safety. But no disasters.</p>

<p>I do agree that it's a GC responsibility. That said, the immigration situation is another matter. I continued to feel very angry about our country's utter abandonment of the need for immigrants to transition in some systematic & comprehensible way to a culture based on radically different principles from their own -- going as many of them are from a top-down to a bottom-up system, which affects every element of everyday life. </p>

<p>There are certain practical transitions here already in place: Most especially things like employment & Social Security. For example, the Indiian immigrants I know have supports in my State for applying overseas credentials to their US employment. There's a sort of conversion system for that, allowing them to make immediate use of their previous experience (not just I.T.)</p>

<p>But education is not a gigantic life need? The U.S. Government just hasn't noticed that people coming from Asia are coming from virtually opposing belief systems & policies about education? We may be a melting pot, but first you have to actually prepare the ingredients for the stew or the fondue.</p>

<p>The cynic could react that this attitude of neglect is good for the non-Asian students (or those Asians who have been here much longer). But it's really good for no one. The country is not served, and definitely higher education is not served, when thousands of (extra) applications are directed to the 'wrong' locations or the same locations. It's costly on the colleges' time & resources. The length of some waitlists this year, even for previously small-waitlist colleges, is unreal. Colleges are having problems with yield predictions. There are more offers of deferred admission than before. All families are trying to manage with the difficulty of rational predictability.</p>

<p>No way is this the immigrants' fault. The situation already exists and to some extent would exist with no immigrants applying, but is certainly compounded by a failure to inform recent arrivals. And this failure to inform has been around for a long time and is an indication of a horrible, non-conscious immigration policy. We don't have a coherent immigration policy; we really don't. It's not well-thought-out, strategic, purposeful, humane. We merely react, poorly and insufficiently.</p>

<p>End of rant. :(</p>

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<p>I'm in total agreement with the absurdity of applying only to Ivies or so-called "top schools" and I am afraid it will never, ever stop. I was appalled at a meeting for parents of seniors at our New England high school last week when the head of guidance spoke about this year being the toughest of all but that it seemed kids were really trying to find colleges that suited them, a range of colleges, and only a few were left stranded. That all seemed quite reasonable, but then she said with great satisfaction that it was such a successful year because 3 or 4 were accepted to Harvard, 3 to Yale and 10 to Princeton. "My God!" she said, "Can you imagine? 10 to Princeton!" She went on to talk about how to choose a college and said quite clearly that big 200-person classes were a "state university situation" and maybe a student interested in communications would think twice about choosing a university in the midwest.</p>

<p>I was appalled and wrote an email suggesting that she modify her talk next year. After all, there were clearly overlaps with the HYP admissions, meaning that she was crowing about at most 10 kids, when there were at least 200 parents in the room whose kids very likely applied to one of the HYP schools and did not get in. But more importantly, I said, there are many fabulous schools--why zero in on HYP? And state schools aren't the only ones with big classes (my H, who went to UPenn (notice how I drop names? I went to Centre College myself and loved it), said that his favorite class had 500 people in it--taught by the great planning guru Ian McHarg). And the midwest isn't a good place for communications?! Has she never heard of Chicago, Minneapolis, St. Louis, etc.? I wanted to stand up and boo. What a great way to perpetuate the East Coast/HYP hype.</p>

<p>She emailed me back saying it's hard to come up with a 15-minute talk that covers all the bases. I have choice words for her, which I won't use here. Clueless and thoughtless are the nicest of the words. I hope the principal, who was there, gave her what-for. I have one son yet to go, but thankfully he's going a different route--art major!--and we will be doing our own research. I have no beef with our own guidance counselor, who made a point of suggesting colleges in the midwest and west, and a range of selectivity. I'm just glad the head of guidance doesn't actually deal with individual students.</p>

<p>But it just verified the fact that there's always going to be that hype, people will always be wanting to keep up with the Joneses, there will always be swallows flying to Capistrano, as curmudgeon says. People are people. That's why Shakespeare is still hanging around. We just can't help it.</p>

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<p>epiphany,
Your first post is one that I feel I could have written myself and has been on my mind a lot lately as well. I observe this phenomena with some people on CC and in my work. I actually find it sad.</p>

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<p>Ditto. I wish there were more threads akin to "brag about your lesser known colleges".</p>

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<p>I think that a number of parents take the stand that if they are going to pay $50k a year for college, it %$#@ well better be an Ivy. Most of S's friends apply to the state flagship (an excellent school, gives great $$, generous accelerated placement -- we are very fortunate to have this resource) and then pitch the rest of their applications at the top tier. </p>

<p>The reality is that 20-40% of them will attend the flagship -- some because they didn't get into Ivies, but the majority because the $$ is attractive, they know the programs well, and there will be a sense of cameraderie (and/or the place is big enough where one can "start over"). This figure will also include some top-notch students who will decline Ivy acceptances. We don't hear much complaining about going to the flagship, though. The kids know they are wanted.</p>

<p>That said, I think there are some cultural biases at work in terms of the perceived prestige of certain schools. There is also the perception (whichseems pretty widespread among students) that if you have a 3.9+ and a 2200+, you have "earned" the right to a seat at the Ivy table. </p>

<p>S's GC was pleased with his list -- he had a good range, geographic diversity, colleges who knew his school, and a compelling reason for every school on the list (except H, which he did at our request for FA reasons). The list changed a little after a successful EA round, but he had a plan and it worked. He would be happy at any of his acceptances, from safety to super-reach. (This is part of why he is having such a tough time deciding now!)</p>

<p>As for my current sophomore, I'm not sure how to deal with the current frenzy other than by applying to a larger/geographically broader range of target schools, as well as having several safer choices that he'd be happy attending. (I acknowledge that this contributes to the feeding frenzy.) This is not a kid who is looking for Ivies -- this is a kid whose scores/grades would make Reed, Bowdoin, CMC, Georgetown, Chicago excellent target/reasonable reaches -- but who may slip through the cracks as the app numbers increase. It's going to be an interesting search, and he is going to need to be very clear in laying out WHY he fits at his list of schools.</p>

<p>I've been reading the "Brag About Your Lesser Known Schools" thread, too.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
Conclusion? They found CC too late.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>That's my conclusion too. Anyone posting on CC who self-reports applying only to "reach" colleges hasn't been reading my many threads about applying to safety colleges as a FIRST step in building a college application list. </p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/357223-what-your-favorite-safety-college.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/harvard-university/357223-what-your-favorite-safety-college.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>token-
I never saw that "favorite safety college" thread (which, IMO is a GREAT idea for a thread) because it was in the Harvard forum. Can you possibly move it (or recreate it, retaining he current posts) in this forum? That would be so helpful!!
I have to admit, while my younger s isn't choosing between ivy's I have had had a sickening feeling about the cost of the schools if he hadn't gotten merit $$. We paid close to full freight for older s. and would appreciate a bit of a "break", if at all possible, the second time around. I think, too, the wonderful new financial incentives that schools like Harvard, Yale, Princeton, etc are offering, it's hard for many students NOT to consider them, especially if $$ is an issue.</p>