Thanks tsbna44, I agree that once we have affordable schools on the list it’s ok to add unlikely reaches that have something special going for them. That’s why we have USC and are likely to add NEU. It just happens that he can visit Boston (combining with another trip) so he can check out BU along with NEU, thanks for mentioning it.
If he really has time for a few more visits 
- for econ, check out Brandeis, Bentley, Babson…the last two if interested in the business aspects. Not Tufts - no merit aid.
Good luck.
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If you haven’t taken a look at the school Oregon state is teaming up with for the formula racing team, it’s a very unique set up that exists afaik only in Germany. The bachelors degree program is modelled on the apprenticeship tradition where students after 9th or 10th grade apply to industry or business and learn a trade so ending 3 days a week at the office or shop and 2 at trade school (considered high school level, but it’s more like community college, with pre professional classes and training.)
For the degree programs at the DHBW, you also don’t apply at the school, but at the employer, and two semesters each year at the school come with the job. The rest of the time you work, with 6 weeks off a year like any other employee. You are paid a monthly stipend, are guaranteed a job if you make it through and are expected to stay, I believe, for something like 5 years in the job or you pay part of your stipend back.
My nephew has done it. He says it’s very regimented, very little flexibility, but the work experience is great, you hit the ground running once you’re done and employers LOVE you.
Also, Friedrichshafen is in a great location, right on Lake Constance…
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Thanks for all that great information! Sounds similar in some ways to a co-op program, but originating from the employer rather than the school.
I noticed the University of Glasgow was on the poster’s list.
I don’t have much to add except that I studied abroad at the University of Glasgow during college and it was literally the best year of my life.
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Update: June SAT score was 1460 (780 math, 680 EBRW).
His questions: “is this good enough to submit, rather than going test optional?” and “do I need to take it again in August?” (He is already registered for the August SAT.)
AP scores came in and they are 5.
Edited to add: For McGill, I think he would still need to apply TO because the EBRW score was not above 700. Not sure about the other schools in Canada.
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Yes, he would need a 700+ for EBRW on the SAT for McGill. For other Canadian schools, his scores are fine. U of T, for examples expects scores of 650+ on each section.
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Thanks! That’s helpful.
It looks like he is good shape to be a competitive applicant for the UK schools with 5,5,5 on his AP scores so far, and 5 more AP tests in his senior year including Calc BC. Looking at ICL (BSc Economics, Finance and Data Science which is a new offering for 2023), Edinburgh (weighing a few different options), UCL, and LSE, not sure about 5th UCAS choice.
Seems like a very tough set of UK admits, especially with only a 1460 SAT and just 3 APs. You have to declare all scores, and can’t be test optional, including any SAT retakes (one and done is highly valued). And if you don’t have Calc BC until senior year I’d expect any offer to be conditional on that so you won’t know until July. LSE is super difficult (more so than Oxford) and Imperial isn’t much better. UCL can be unpredictable too. I think you need to look a step down if you want to get any UK offers, for example at KCL, St Andrews, maybe Durham. And even then they will very likely be conditional.
For reference S18 applied with 4.0UW/1540 SAT (single sitting) and 800/770/710 in math 2/USH/Spanish SAT subject tests/five 5s in AP (Calc AB, USH, CS A, Spanish Lang, English Lang plus a sophomore year 3 in MEH) for PPE and got to interview at Oxford (no offer), rejected at UCL and LSE, only accepted at KCL (he stayed in the US and went to UCLA).
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Thanks, that’s great feedback! Our HS college counselor felt UCL and Edinburgh would be matches, and LSE would be a reach, based on other students applying from our HS in previous years, but I have no idea how accurate that advice will be. It’s quite possible the counselor was optimistic, and I understand admission to UK universities would be unpredictable. I’m guessing that a lot will also depend on his UCAS personal statement.
However, it is honestly not a problem if all UCAS choices are reaches. Our list of US schools is pretty heavy on match and safety schools. Since he only has 5 UCAS choices, I expect that he will pick the most interesting options for which he meets the minimum posted requirements, and just see what happens. I’m just happy that it looks like he will be in good shape to meet posted minimum requirements, so that he can give it a try!
This is vastly less important than US admission essays. The teacher recommendation counts for more and is very different to US recommendations so takes a lot of work from the recommender (who ought to be a relevant advanced subject teacher, which in itself is a problem since you haven’t done AP Calc yet). S was very lucky to have a history teacher who thought he was great (“best student in X years” is what they are looking for) and had done his masters at Oxford. If you don’t have that, or worse still a generic US style recommendation, then the probability of an offer goes down significantly (UK admissions people believe, fairly or not, that all US recommendations will paint the applicant in the best possible light, whereas UK schools who are sending lots of candidates every year have reason to be more realistic/balanced).
Personally I think an LSE application is wasted. Imperial is unlikely too. I don’t know enough about Edinburgh and UCL is unpredictable, but I would keep at least 2-3 slots for say KCL/Warwick/Durham/St Andrews. And if cost is a consideration, bear in mind that London is very expensive, though at least the exchange rate is working in your favor for now.
Thanks! We have had a lot of trouble finding affordable reach schools in the US, so it’s actually good to have schools on the list which are reaches.
Our school limits APs, so there is no way our son could have completed a long list of APs like your S18. Calc BC (and even Calc AB) are only available to seniors at our school. The junior year honors math class covers some calculus (which he enjoyed), but it isn’t an AP class. However, our school does send students to these UK universities every year, and the college counselor said they were familiar with the process and what is required in the teacher recommendations.
We originally didn’t have ICL on the list, but he really liked it when he visited.
I would assume for most Californians (like us) the UCs fill that role. Back in 2018 admissions were sufficiently predictable that S only felt he needed to apply to UCB and UCLA and got into both. Even now there’s some degree of predictability instate if you know how many from your high school got in this year.
I can’t imagine your kid being completely shut out of the UCs (though I’d pick Utah or Arizona over UCR/UCM) and S says in retrospect he thinks he’s achieved more at UCLA (graduating top of his class there with a 4.0) than he would have done even at Oxford. I’m from the UK originally and I would agree.
I think it tends to be kids with a less standard profile (like our S23 with a 3.7UW and no real ECs but an unprepped single sitting 1530 SAT) that have more difficulty with UC admissions. Even then I’d hesitate to send my S23 to the UK, given the dependence on a high stakes exam based system (with intense revision required) that is very unfamiliar to US students. Our neighbor’s kid went to St Andrews for that reason (good test scores but inconsistent grades so poor US admission results) and has really struggled there.
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This should be pinned (not about the particular kid of course, but in general). The folks I know in real life who have overly romantic views of the U system in the UK are often shocked to see their kid struggle academically. Not because their kids are dumb or unprepared- but because the calendar is different, the pace is different, the need to stay on track when you don’t have the constant quizzes or problem sets or papers to remind you not to fall behind. I’ve seen kids who have gone from “I’m knocking the cover off the ball” to “How did I fall behind?” in record time.
People need to be MUCH more educated about the differences before they decide the UK is the right fit for their kid. Especially when (and I’m seeing this more and more) the UK is seen as a way to “punch above your weight” if the prestigious US admissions season didn’t work out as hoped. Yes, the UK University will sound hoity toity… maybe it is, maybe it isn’t… but your kid still needs to do the work to get a degree. And a kid who had trouble focusing, or inconsistency in HS, or needed a ton of parental scaffolding to achieve those A’s in HS might not be the right fit for an overseas experience.
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Anecdotally, the kids in our friend circle who are studying in the UK are doing fine. But that might just be these specific kids. We don’t know anyone who has a kid at St Andrews, but we hear a lot of good things about Edinburgh.
In our case, our son isn’t looking at UK schools in order to “punch above his weight.” Our kid originally expressed interest in studying in the UK. A family member who studied in the UK (at Oxford) specifically suggested that our kid consider LSE based on his interests. This started the whole process of looking into these schools.
Our kid’s classmates all have HYPSM in the “aspirational reach” slots on their lists, and it’s quite possible that some will get in to these schools. Our kid originally had a couple of those schools on his list, too, but removed them after we had a conversation about affordability.
A school like LSE is an interesting school to have on the list as an “aspirational reach,” although it remains to be seen whether our son will ultimately decide that it’s interesting enough to merit a UCAS application slot. I don’t feel that an “aspirational reach” application slot would be wasted.
What would be wasted, however, would be applications to schools that he wouldn’t want to attend even if admitted. If he would rather attend his safety school than Warwick, for example, there is no point in applying to Warwick.
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Yes, a super independent, self motivated kid can do fine in the UK once they’ve adjusted to the pace. But there’s a good reason places that don’t need the money like Oxbridge and LSE are reluctant to admit Americans compared to students from Asia who have grown up in exam based systems.
In college for final exams I literally spent six weeks revising 8 hours per day for 5-6 days per week. UK students are very familiar with that - my niece has just done the same for 8 three hour A level exams (three subjects) to meet her conditional offer.
Well, I can say that our kid is surprisingly responsible, focused, organized and consistent. Much more than I was at his age! He goes to a big public HS where it’s easy to fall through the cracks, and he hasn’t needed hand holding there. For his AP tests, he has been the most prepared of anyone in his friend group… he is the kid who organizes study sessions and helps other kids catch up on the material.
We wouldn’t be looking at schools like McGill and the UK schools if he needed a lot of parental hand holding, or felt that he couldn’t handle a high stakes exam. Of course that doesn’t guarantee that he would succeed at these schools. There are a lot of unknowns. But I do feel that he is the type of student who has a good chance of adapting.
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Your position sounds very similar to my thinking five years ago. We had twins in a big Bay Area public HS who were both in the top 10 in a class of 400, and we were full pay but with a budget of $40K-$50K per kid. We also saw the UK as a potential way out of paying $70K-$80K per year, especially as spouse and I were both from the UK (and did undergrad and PhDs at Cambridge). S in particular loved PPE and the idea of going to the East Coast, but knew he would have to look for merit at private schools in the US, so he didn’t apply to some of the places he really liked such as Georgetown, Chicago and Brown. He did get into almost all of the places he applied to in the US that offered merit (GWU, American, CWRU, Macalester, etc) although his UK application results were disappointing.
Four years ago at the end of the admissions process I felt some dissatisfaction at their outcomes, especially compared to less talented classmates who’d ended up at MIT and Stanford (all because of major hooks, you wouldn’t have put these kids in the top 5 in the class, several not in the top 10) - the only unhooked kid who ended up at a top private went to Georgetown (also admitted to Dartmouth). The most purely academically talented kids (including all the NMFs) all went to UCs. And yet at the end of senior year events, parents were applauding a lot louder for kids going to those well known private schools than for the UCs. S had also never thought he would stay instate - the first time he even visited UCLA was after admission on Bruin Day, and he was extremely upset about not getting into Oxford after loving the three days he spent there for interviews.
But in retrospect I think their final choices (S18 went to UCLA with an Alumni Scholarship, D18 took a full ride to Utah - which was the cheapest option in both cases) were perfect for them. Being within driving distance was a huge benefit, especially during the pandemic, and the fact both had money left over in their 529s has been great for them. And I’m sure the opportunities S has had, including his internships and job after graduation, would not have been improved by spending more money on college.
All that’s a long way of saying that I don’t think that going overseas is a magic solution to your budget constraints, and it’s unwise to focus on those places and neglect options closer to home. If you consider UCLA and UCB as your “aspirational reaches” (and UCSD/UCSB as “realistic reaches”) then I think you’ll have a lot higher chance of being satisfied with the outcome than if you set your sights on either LSE or HYPSM.
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Thanks, I really do appreciate your perspective. Your situation does sound similar to ours in a lot of ways!
I’m not sure why I haven’t been able to convey, however, that we aren’t looking at the UK primarily because we see it as a magic solution for budget constraints, or as an escape from US college admissions craziness. My kid is simply interested in these universities. He has been interested in the UK from the start (this probably started because of his interest in F1 racing). He also likes cold and gloomy weather, medium to large cities with a lot of cultural opportunities, and the idea of living and studying in a different country. LSE was literally the first school on his college list, then we looked into other UK possibilities, and then we started adding schools in Canada. And now, partly due to the helpful folks on this thread, we’ve also added some OOS US universities, most of which are matches or safeties, which is fine. It just happens that there are very few affordable OOS reaches.
This doesn’t mean we are neglecting options closer to home! He is definitely applying to the UCs, and not just the top ranked ones. He is a modest kid who doesn’t see himself as too elite to attend a lower ranked UC or a Cal State, and in fact he would be the first one to argue that there are things to love about UC Merced, for example.
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If it helps, this is the current list. I don’t feel this list is super top heavy, and he certainly doesn’t have his heart set on LSE in particular (I’m not sure it will even end up on the list when he picks his top 5 most interesting options for UCAS). He is putting lots of energy into exploring his safeties and matches… we have full day visits planned for each safety, and he is considering these schools just as seriously as the reaches.
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UK: Edinburgh, UCL, ICL, LSE. Maybe Glasgow, KCL.
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Canada: McGill (Arts or A & S), UBC, U of Toronto (would need merit). Maybe Waterloo, Queen’s, UWO.
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UC / CSU system: UCLA, UCB, UCI, UCSD, UCSB, UCD, Cal Poly SLO. Maybe UCSC, UCR, SDSU, CPP.
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Other US schools: Oregon State, CU Boulder, UW Seattle, Purdue, Pitt, UMN Twin Cities, Penn State, UIUC, USC (would need merit). Maybe Northeastern (would need merit), BU (would need merit), Drexel, DePaul, still learning about some other schools.
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