<p>east asians are equally, if not more, screwed over by AA compared to caucasians.</p>
<p>@whitecadillac - I didn’t mean to start a huge conversation about this and I don’t argue over the internet, so here are some articles. :)</p>
<p>[Self-discipline</a>, IQ, and GPA](<a href=“http://www.psychologyandsociety.com/GPAstory.html]Self-discipline”>http://www.psychologyandsociety.com/GPAstory.html)</p>
<p>“Duckworth and Seligman (2005) investigated relations between IQ, self-discipline, and academic performance among eighth-grade students. In their second study, the correlation between their composite self-discipline measure and final GPA (r = .67) was significantly stronger than the correlation between IQ and final GPA (r = .32).” </p>
<p>[What</a> does the SAT test? - The Boston Globe](<a href=“http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2004/07/04/the_sat_tests/]What”>http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2004/07/04/the_sat_tests/)</p>
<p>“Yet amazingly the College Board, along with those psychologists who think the SAT measures IQ, maintains that the SAT is basically uncoachable. The best research, they say, shows coaching leading to improvements of only 30 points per section.”</p>
<p>As for the second part of your post: that’s the big question, isn’t it? Asking “what should colleges REALLY look at?” opens up a huge can of worms that nobody wants to deal with.</p>
<p>And thanks, but I am aware of the facts. what you are referring to is a very controversial and oft-debated issue among admissions representatives from top colleges. What I was referring to was the original poster exclaiming that he did not get into USC because he was too white.</p>
<p>All one has to do is walk around the USC campus and see the great ethnic diversity. Just in case you wish to check the USC pocket profile lists the ethnicity of the undergraduate student body at SC…</p>
<pre><code> Caucasians are a minority at 44%.
</code></pre>
<p>First i’d like to say that I myself am a minority (black) and it deeply saddens me to see how many people truly don’t understand what it’s like to a minority. It is difficult, especially being the only black student in every one of my classes. To say that they minorities have an unfair advantage and are not as qualified is just simply ignorant. USC looks the the RIGHT student, not the perfect GPA/testscores. It’s called holistic review, not racism.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>Uh, when I did I claim this? I never did. Don’t put words in my mouth; thanks. Although, after reading these threads and talking to some people from my own school who got in over me, I have to wonder.</p>
<p>While I already stated my desire for this to not turn into a thread about affirmative action or anything of the sort, I have to point out that the people who are claiming that all minorities automatically have it harder in life because of their race are the ones who are being truly racist. You are assuming that because someone is black or Hispanic that they must have had some hardship to overcome, while ignoring the fact that many, many of them have not and yet still get an advantage in admissions. To claim that minorities have an innate sense of hardship wherever they go is just ridiculous; I am a minority myself–not in race, but in sexuality–but do I face discrimination everywhere I go and in everything I do? No, and neither do all minorities. USC is obviously not just looking at individual circumstances when they are obviously letting in many minorities who have not had any special hardships and yet are still getting in over more academically-qualified applicants. </p>
<p>Plenty of white and Asian people have the same hardships or even worse hardships, but will they get a leg up in admissions? Yes, perhaps…if their sob story is powerful enough. It seems that’s what it all comes down to, and this sickens me. Special circumstances should be one small factor to consider in admissions, not the most important by any stretch of the imagination. Academic performance and long-term, passionate EC’s should be much more significant. </p>
<p>Sorry that I have grown up in a good family and a safe middle-class environment. Sorry that I still worked my butt off in school and also have the inherent intelligence–combined with working hard in school–to do well on the SAT. (Dream, your articles didn’t prove your initial point. The first one cites that GPA is often mostly a product of work ethic. And the second one proves that the SAT measures the intelligence one has at that particular time, which–believe it or not–is developed through working hard in school over the course of your life, in addition to innate intelligence.) Sorry that I haven’t had any great hardships but still dedicated my time to developing great skill and passion in my field. </p>
<p>If USC is just looking for people that either have an underrepresented race (regardless of their academic accomplishments and regardless of their personal circumstances), big money, or some great sob story that supposedly justifies their less-than-stellar academic performance, then there is something seriously wrong with their admissions standards.</p>
<p>^I think when Dream said OP she meant the original poster to cite race quotas as a reason for admission (on the first page).</p>
<p>To answer your question about recommendations, though, you don’t need one from your counselor. I never had my counselor write one for me or fill out the form because she didn’t know me that well—my AP Lang teacher did that for me instead. So I don’t think not having a counselor recommendation hurt you in any way :)</p>
<p>Lol, I’m sorry but I really disagree with GPA directly correlating to intelligence. It is extremely easy to get straight As at my school. GPA does not correlate with your SAT score; my school’s saludatorian got a 1900. My best friend who is ranked 7th got 1700. Mind you the scores aren’t terrible, but they doesn’t correlate with the high GPAs. Sure they work hard to finish all the busy work handed out (thus proving GPA does correlate to work ethic), but even then look at their AP test scores. They took all AP classes available, and they didn’t pass any with a score higher than 3. In fact, they only passed APUSH from what I recall, and got 2s on Physics and Chemistry. If they really did learn the material as their GPA would suggest, why couldn’t they pass with 4s or 5s? I strongly believe that GPA is an inaccurate measure of intelligence. Often times it shows that you can memorize and regurgitate information, but not APPLY it. Maybe that’s just at my school.</p>
<p>Now in regards to race, I’m against affirmative action myself since I’m Southeast Asian, but I understand most minorities DO have disadvantages. You’re mistaken to believe however that they’re underqualified just because they’re a minority. If they are that underqualified, they wouldn’t be accepted in the first place.</p>
<p>^I agree with you about all of the GPA stuff to a certain extent. I do think it varies by school, though. Some schools really are more rigorous and do require true hard work/intelligence to get good grades, but yes, others may not. Colleges supposedly try their best to understand the differences between high schools, don’t they?</p>
<p>And no one said that people are underqualified because they’re minorities. What we’re saying is that minorities have a much greater chance of being accepted despite being underqualified, while highly-qualified people have a great chance of being rejected due to being white or Asian.</p>
<p>Oh, and Tim, thanks for clarifying about the counselor rec! Oh, and so you got into SCA, right?! Congrats!! 
Are you going next year then?</p>
<p>Eiffel
PM if you would like to look at my son’s appeal from last year. He is currenlty a Spring admit 2010.</p>
<p>Thanks, bbgg! :)</p>
<p>And by the way, I want to clarify that I am not saying all people who were accepted fit into the “race, money, or sob story” categories. I know there are many highly-qualified people who got in based on their actual merits alone. All I’m saying is that these people seem rarer than they should be in USC’s acceptances this year.</p>
<p>I’m going to appeal. I know it is a long shot. :)</p>
<p>Eiffel</p>
<p>Have your counselor email his or her rec. to your USC admisions rec now!</p>
<p>Eiffel,
Appeal for sure! You deserve it, and its definitely worth a shot. But I got in without a counselor rec, so I wouldn’t worry about sending that in.</p>
<p>Thanks so much, Elle! 
And congrats on getting in! :D</p>
<p>Not to bring back up the race category, but I would like to say that I go to a small private school of 500 kids, and that although there are a handful of kids there on scholarships (mostly for sports), the majority of kids regardless of their race are wealthy enough to attend the school and live in extremely nice houses. Here is an example: I am white (Swedish to be exact, but that doesn’t make a difference for some reason) I had a 2100, 32, and a 4.3. Music is my life and I have 7 years of experience in several different categories. I have literally taken all the hardest classes offered at my school and gotten mostly A’s. I was not accepted to USC as a I mentioned earlier. </p>
<p>However my friend. He is a decent golfer and has kept a GPA of about 4.3 maybe. got a 30 on the ACT and he is mexican. HE HAS NOT LIVED A HARD LIFE IN THE SLIGHTEST, yet he got into Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Brown, Colombia, and Cornell.</p>
<p>There is an upset.</p>
<p>He’s an under-represented minority at those schools. Being different and standing out is a hook.</p>
<p>Eiffel, sorry for the misunderstanding but I was not referring to you when I said original poster. >_></p>
<p>And I never said that all minorities suffer hardships. I simply said that USC accepts students that have overcome hardships and succeed etc. It was a general statement that was meant to show that all USC students have something special about them that stood out in the admissions process. However, minorities do offer something unique. Sexuality is also something unique. Some things just stand out to admissions officers.</p>
<p>The first article that I found showed exactly what I originally stated – that there was only SOME correlation between work ethic and GPA.</p>
<p>The second article asserts the SAT “measures ‘general intelligence’ … more effectively than some IQ tests wielded by psychologists (which often ask test-takers to do things like discern patterns in strings of numbers). The authors even provide formulas for converting SAT scores into IQ scores.” Discerning patterns in strings of numbers is problem-solving. Test-taking. By the way, I even tried one of those conversions they provided. According to that formula, my IQ based on my SAT score (2090 - M 650 CR 710 W 730) would be 114. That is over 20 points less than my actual IQ (before you ask – no, I did not figure out my IQ from a test on the internet, my mom is a psychotherapist). Maybe it has something to do with the fact that I had a fever when I took the SAT. I believe that’s what you would consider a “special circumstance.”</p>
<p>You also wrote that “the SAT measures the intelligence one has at that particular time, which–believe it or not–is developed through working hard in school over the course of your life, in addition to innate intelligence.” Are you suggesting that the SAT measures inteligence, which is developed through working hard in school? In addition to innate intelligence? That’s funny. I have a friend who had a GPA below 3.0 but scored a 36 on the ACT. Why? He didn’t care about school. He also got into the University of Chicago and several other top schools, and he’s maintaining a 4.0 at the one he chose. One of my best friends (going into fashion design) has a 4.0 GPA but scored a 20 on the ACT. He tries very hard in school and he’s very intelligent, but he’s also a slow reader. Does that make him unintelligent? My other best friend is a Physics and Philosophy double major at a top school. She was the salutatorian of her class and had a 4.0 GPA. She also got a 35 on the ACT. Even though she’s very intelligent and very good at physics, she got a 2 on the AP Physics exam.</p>
<p>Hardrockersean’s example of the Mexican who got into almost all the Ivies is a perfect example of what is wrong with affirmative action. Going on hardrockersean’s word, this boy offered nothing special or different (in regards to his Mexican heritage, that is). He lived the “stereotypical WASP lifestyle” or so it sounds. So how does he represent any diversity? Because his skin looks a little different? Diversity shouldn’t be measured that way at all. Looking at hardships being overcome is one thing, but assuming that because someone’s skin color is different automatically means they are bringing some type of diversity to the campus is another. And again, I have to say…not everyone has had to overcome great hardships, but they should not be discounted for this if they still took advantage of all the resources available to them and accomplished great things.</p>
<p>Dream, those people you’re talking about seem more like exceptions to the rule than the rule itself. I’m not saying the SAT is perfect or that it is perfectly related to intelligence, but to say that there is -no- correlation seems kind of silly. The fact is, the SAT does test the three core subjects that we were all supposed to master by the end of high school: math, reading, and writing. Some people are innately good at one or all of these subjects; others truly did learn them through school or at least enhanced their ability through working hard at school. Take me for instance. I have always been inherently skilled at reading and writing. But would I have gotten my 800 and 740 if I had taken the SAT before going to any schooling? Highly doubtful. My mastery of the subjects grew and grew as I went through school and as I worked hard to get even better at these subjects. As for math, I worked hard in the classes I took, but I didn’t work hard to truly and deeply understand the subject and this was reflected in my mediocre SAT math score. </p>
<p>If school isn’t making people better equipped to understand math, reading, and writing, then there is certainly a problem with the school system (of course, I already do think there are -many- problems with the school system, but that is a discussion for a different day). In general, though, if people work hard in these subjects throughout school, they will almost definitely do better on the SAT than if they shrugged school off. Your friend that got a 36 must have been one of those inherently gifted students that somehow blew off his work to a certain degree and still managed…Those obviously exist, but they’re fairly rare.</p>
<p>All you know about Hardrockersean’s Mexican classmate is his GPA and that he golfs. Unless you read his essays and thought they were really boring. In which case, I take all of that back. You guys are assuming that he only got in because he’s a minority. Sorry, but race and heritage do play a large part in diversity. Different heritages provide different backgrounds (I’m a refugee immigrant, I do think I have a different point-of-view than someone who has lived in America their entire life). In my opinion, overcoming a stereotype IS a huge accomplishment as it is very rarely done. A school will never pick someone for the sole reason that they are a minority.</p>
<p>Eiffel, I never said that there was no correlation. Go back to my original post, my exact wording was that there is only SOME correlation. That study even supports what I said! There were deviations, therefore there was no absolute correlation. Yes, there was SOME correlation, but it was not ABSOLUTE correlation.</p>
<p>And you don’t have to go to school to learn. I did not read a single page of my AP US History book last year. I failed every single quiz and test in that class and I only got a B from extra credit, participation, and other grade fluff. But I still got a 5 on the exam because I studied from a Princeton Review book the night before. I do agree with you to SOME extent - going to school can help you learn. You don’t NEED it to learn, though. There is no ABSOLUTE correlation between school and intelligence. It’s just not there. School is more of an opportunity than anything.</p>
<p>School can help some people by giving them the opportunity to learn, but come on. I have gotten Bs in all of my English classes (and Cs on most of my papers) but I scored a 35 on the verbal section of the ACT. I even skipped a grade because my reading level was higher than the rest of my classmates’. Another one of my engineering friends has a sub-3.0 GPA and a 34 ACT. He got into one school, but he’s brilliant. Everyone cheats the system.</p>
<p>This is a stupid argument. Agree to disagree. ;)</p>