Help with the most difficult transfer decision? (being a "do-gooder" at Penn v Brown)

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
1

Didn’t want to end up starting another one of these threads but I am having a really difficult time deciding. I ended up wanting to leave my previous school because of my strong interest in international/economic development and nonprofit work/ social enterprise management. The school didn’t have much coursework or programs available for either. Below, I’ve listed the pros and cons of Penn CAS and Brown, the schools I’ve been accepted to. Any extra input you guys could impart would be really helpful!

Brown
Pros:
-The open curriculum, pass/fail system, and generous drop system and the noncompetitive atmosphere that come out of it are everything I could want in an academic experience. I want to be able to explore college-level physics without killing my GPA. I want to be able to focus more on learning for the sake of learning despite knowing how GPA plays a role in my future. I am a self directed learner who is far more motivated and thrives when being able to make my own decisions.
-Stronger in development economics I believe. It has more development economists than Penn CAS’s econ department (although Penn has a few amazing people in this field too of course).
-Has it’s own development studies program that I’m interested in pursuing. All of the classes look amazing and I would be so excited to take them.
-I’m also interested in its Applied-Math econ program, which looks amazing, as well as its Public Policy program. I’m super excited to try classes in like all of these lol.
-Since I was accepted into the spring semester I could finish up a research project I had begun with a professor at my current school, or at least go farther with it
-I like a lot of the stereotypes I’ve heard about the vibe…despite being an ivy for instance, investment banking isn’t as popular or dominant amongst the student body as it is at its peer institutions. Finance is something I’ve expressed interest in myself for its potential application to development, but I never want to feel as if there is social pressure to go into it like I have heard there is at other schools
-Providence is a lovely place, as is RISD. I would love to take art classes there!
-Smaller size possibly means closer interaction with the professors, as well as the smaller graduate school population in proportion to undergrads

Cons:
-So many (admittedly somewhat similar) concentrations and classes there I want to explore, but I was accepted as an incoming Spring sophomore, giving me very little time to explore their courses before declaring a major.
-As a spring transfer I’m afraid of how adjusting socially will work out…unlike Penn, I don’t really know anyone there and there doesn’t seem to be as active of a transfer student organization. That being said, the few students I’ve managed to talk to who know of spring transfer students said they were well adjusted socially.
-It’s a very long drive from where I live
-Sometimes I fear that the laid-back may translate to laziness? People I know who go there claim most students there are hard working though.
-I was glad to hear from current students that the courses are challenging, but it seems to have a reputation as a “lazy ivy” because of its open curriculum and pass fail and drop policies. Its ranking is a bit lower because of this

Penn
Pros:
-Much closer to home and the demographics of the population seem much more like home.
-Larger alumni base and apparently higher ranked. Yes I know this should not be the be all and end all for my decision making, but it’s definitely something I’ve noticed
-The size has its benefits…I think the school would feel a bit closer to the real world because of the sheer diversity offered by its size. Theoretically, it would be much harder for me to not find a group I fit in with when there are this many people. This also counters negative stereotypes I may have heard about the student body, since really how can you generalize such a huge number of people?
-I can start in the Fall which may be more convenient
-It seems to have a larger and more active transfer community and more transfers period. They seem to take an active part in making sure transfers adjust and integrate into the community. I also have high school friends who go here already, so all this means I won’t be socially dead as a transfer.
-I could potentially pursue a dual major with Wharton, which would give me more practical skills and knowledge involved in social enterprise work or nonprofit finance work. Of course it’s no guarantee I’d make it, but based on what others have told me about the academic requirements I think I have a decent shot.
-It has an international development minor and its International relations major allows a focus in development…so even though opportunities to take classes in development are less than they would be at Brown, it’s still a substantial improvement to my old school and might be enough to satisfy me
-There are a LOT of preprofessional nonprofit consulting clubs that are actually really well run…definitely something I’m interested in.
-The campus is prettier than Brown’s and it’s near a bunch of delicious, cheap, food trucks.
-I hear students are super intense about not only their academics, but their extracurricular activities as well…just generally something I would love to see since I am the same way.

Cons:
-I might end up majoring in Econ at CAS (but very well may end up majoring in IR instead with a focus on development), and I hear a lot of them feel overshadowed by Wharton students and that even in just Econ CAS there’s a huge social pressure to get into the finance industry. I’ve heard a couple of negative comments about the professors
-I’m just not a fan of the curves I keep hearing about. Based on what friends from my high school told me, it’s still not too difficult to get A’s if you work hard, but it’s the principal of it that I disagree with…I feel like if a class has more intelligent students one year who have mastered the material, it makes sense for more of them to get A’s than if you had a class where more of the students didn’t try as hard
-Competitive environment may either drive me crazy or make me stronger…maybe both? It’s definitely something my high school should have gotten me used to by now.
-Class sizes seem larger on average than Brown’s
-Gen-eds…granted, it could be worse since its gen-eds are still kindof flexible, but it’s certainly no open curriculum
-Not a fan of Philly in general
-I’ve also heard that students are a lot more focused on how classes will look or add to their resumes than how their classes will add to their knowledge, help them grow as human beings, or satisfy their intellectual curiosity

I guess another thing that has made this decision difficult is that Penn is known for pre-professionalness and kids being sure of their career path or post-grad life while Brown is known for being more like an lac where a lot of kids are encouraged to explore and it’s considered more normal to not know what you want to do…I’m not sure exactly where I fall in this spectrum myself sometimes, but I’d wager that I’m just a little closer to wanting to explore and not knowing what I want for my future yet (even though I have some obvious ideas of interests I wish to pursue).

2

Brown sounds like a better match for you given the more LAC feel, but both are excellent schools.

3

Many of the things you mention are true but one thing that isnt true is that Penn econ majors are overshadowed by Wharton students. This is not the case at all. First of all in terms if professionals outcomes yes many econ majors go i to business and are equally successful in doing so as wharton and engineering. The interest in business is just a big part of penn’s culture no matter what your major. That said if you look at the career services website you will see quite a few econ majors going on to non-business endeavors ( such as pursuing phds in many prestigious institutions such as Penn, Harvard, Yale, Oxford. I think saying that there is a huge social pressure to go into business is an exaggeration. Penn econ is one of the best econ departments in the world with many bright students and professors ( of course you are bound to find a few professors who are not amazing, but that is the case in all schools). Lastly what people fail to realize is that the presence of wharton supplements and does not overshadow other majors/courses of study and it is part of what makes Penn unique.

Also yes in general Penn kids are more focused, intense and have a clearer career goal than Brown kids. But trust me there are many people at Penn who dont know what they want theirs careers to be and want to explore. The Penn culture makes them explore stuff more methodically and practically than they would at Brown. Penn’s unique characteristic is that it is a combination if pre-professionalism and liberal arts nit just one or the other. The fact that penn offers more opportunities to explore through the many more clubs it has than Brown and overall stronger academic departments is a plus. Penn will give you a few more opportunities than Brown, but you cannot go wrong with either school.

4

You seem to have done a lot of thinking/research which is great. I think you may be missing a key aspect of Penn which is that the College of Arts and Sciences is a liberal arts college in the truest sense of the term. Intellectual curiosity abounds in every undergrad school at Penn and that thirst for knowledge is specifically rewarded and facilitated in the College each and every day. If you matriculate to Penn and decide you desperately want to immerse yourself in the humanities and nothing else (which would be a shame), it is definitely possible. You’ll have to take a few distribution requirements but there are so many classes that fulfill each that you can likely find a class that is humanities-esque even when fulfilling non-humanities requirements and you can entirely bypass the whole pre-professional vibe (Anyone else take Ideas in Mathematics and love it? Just me?).

It sounds to me, however, like you might enjoy a truly interdisciplinary education which is where Penn shines. As an econ major you would have access to both undergrad and graduate resources from one of the most successful econ departments in the world (thanks to Penn’s one university policy, all of Penn’s resources/professors/classes/etc. are made available to undergrads). You can also take classes in Wharton (if you choose) to get more specific skills for your future career. But at no point will you feel as though Wharton overshadows Penn econ. At the end of the day they are two distinct programs that benefit from one another by encouraging a profound intellectual cross pollination that is only possible at a place as vibrant and diverse as Penn. The college has all of the benefits of a liberal arts college coupled with the immense resources of an internationally renowned research university. On average, Penn students are probably more pre-professional than their peers, but not by much. Huge numbers of every ivy league graduating class go into business/finance/consulting for a million reasons that have more to do with those industries than the levels of intellectualism at each university.

And as for the liberal arts feel of the school, you may actually find more of the pros you list for Brown are at Penn instead. 95% of classes in the College are taught by Faculty (not grad students-- though the grad students are the future of America’s faculty so they’re pretty great too), which means you are almost always interacting with top scholars in their fields (https://www.college.upenn.edu/prospective/frequently-asked-questions-2). And Penn’s Student/Faculty ratio is 6 to 1 (lower than Brown’s 8 to 1 student to faculty ratio (source: US News & World Report)). Furthermore, US News also states that 68.3 percent of ALL Penn classes have fewer than 20 students (which includes classes in Nursing, Wharton and Engineering which tend to have larger classes since their subjects are often, though not always, less discussion based than College classes. Around 85% of Penn CAS classes have 20 students or fewer according to College specific info sessions offered at Penn). That is compared to Brown’s 69.1% of classes with 20 students or fewer. That would be a small difference even if that accurately reflected the difference between the College and Brown though the scales are tipped deeply in Penn’s favor in terms of class size when the College is considered on its own.

And the research opportunities at Penn are absolutely unparalleled. With so much research conducted at Penn, it is almost impossible to avoid contributing at least a little something to the body of knowledge in your field. But for those interested in research, Penn’s funding and access to opportunities are unmatched.

Finally, as you mentioned, Penn’s transfer community is strong, which can make a huge difference in terms of fitting in. There is a whole advocacy and social organization dedicated entirely to transfer students (https://secure.www.upenn.edu/nso/about-us.html) and Penn’s larger atmosphere means you’ll blend in immediately. Plus starting in the fall means that social groups are still fluid and people aren’t settled into patterns and routines from the previous semester.

Hope this helps a bit-- good luck and congrats on your great accomplishment.

5

Two of my absolute, all- time favorite schools - esp in the areas you are into. I will be of zero help here. But I guess I would make the cut based on whether you want a pre-professional environment. That is surely the case at Penn in all parts, not just Wharton. Nor do I consider it a flaw.