High EFC, suck up and pay, or take merit money

College Search & Selection
101

<p>@grossjh, I’m not sure there’s any fixed number for “how rich” one has to be to “feel like $62K per year is worth it.” Too many variables, including age of parents, number of children to educate, total assets, money saved for college, etc. </p>

<p>One question to ask yourself is how much money did/would you have to earn (and how long would/did it take) to have $62,000 in assets to spend? I think it’s easier for a lot of folks to spend lump-sum inheritances and bonuses than annual earnings on big-ticket items, and $240,000+ is a big-ticket item regardless of its inherent value. </p>

<p>I have “rich” friends who decided that, after paying full-price for one of their kids to attend Vanderbilt, the rest of them could go to state schools. The dad, a very successful attorney, was a Penn State grad and didn’t feel his son’s education was any more “valuable” than his own. I know others who sacrifice for that youngest kid to go to the pricey private college because they know they have no other kids waiting in the wings whom they also have to finance college for.</p>

<p>If you can genuinely afford to pay $62k a year for you daughter to attend GW, then that’s an option that I think a lot of folks would argue is the best way “to assure your daughter’s future.” Some things are worth the expense, but your daughter needs to understand that you aren’t “caving” to her charms or her pressure, that you are making a calculated investment/decision based on her hard work and willingness to not let you down in the future. And the price of paying for that education means that you won’t be paying for some lavish wedding in the future or to support her after she graduates if her Plan A doesn’t work out. This is serious business and she needs to understand that.</p>

<p>I say all this because I’ve had too many friends over the years whose parents’ wealth enabled them to be indecisive or take unnecessary risks that they later came to regret. I’ve also known children from wealthy families who wouldn’t dare squander their parents’ hard-earned money and did very, very well in life. Only you know your daughter’s true character and whether or not she’s worth that gamble; anonymous parents on a internet forum can’t possibly have that insight. Still, the “entitlement” attitude you’re describing in your daughter, frankly, concerns me more than the price-tags of some of these schools, so here’s a question for you to honestly ask yourself:</p>

<p>If your best friend or sister had a daughter like yours, what would you recommend in this situation? </p>

<p>Recognizing our children’s flaws doesn’t make them or us bad people, but sometimes you need to remove your heart from the equation and use your head. Good luck!</p>

102

<p>I disagree with MYOS. Who is he/she to judge the Wyoming is an inferior education, just hang glidding but not real aerospace travel? It’s the 21st century, they have planes in Wyoming, even internet. Wyo even has a big exchange with Chinese students, and perhaps making a connection with a student from China may be more important than hanging out in Towson MD discussing Chinese policies with other students who know little about it? The numbers may show that more people in the foreign service have graduated from GW, but how many from each school have applied? My cousin went to Georgetown and her husband immediately got a foreign service posting after graduation. Additional info is that his father was an ambassador and I think that might have helped a little. All the other drunk groomsmen hadn’t been accepted to the foreign service, just the one who had a father who was an ambassador. </p>

<p>The OP hasn’t said his daughter is a geniius whose needs haven’t been met by Wyoming schools, that’s she’s learn 6 languages and needs more challenge. Maybe she was admitted to some of those schools because she was the only one from Wyoming who applied and they were looking for a little geographic diversity. Wyoming gives all kinds of scholarships to its best students, and if she were a tippy top student, I’d expect her COA to actually be less than $13000 because of scholarships. I doubt she’ll have problems finding challenging courses. Wyoming offers a full array of foreign languages, art history and architecture classes, history, geography, and probably more survival classes than Goucher, which might be a whole lot more helpful if her first post is to a third world country with few amenities.</p>

103

<p>twoindanddone: there are Chinese students at Goucher too. You’d be hard pressed finding a university in the US where there are no Chinese and Indian students. But that’s not the issue.
UWyoming is a good choice for some majors, and it isn’t for others. I understand your pride in the university your child is attending and I understand it colors your judgement. I’m not affiliated with UWyoming, Goucher, Rhodes, Portland, or Barnard. But I know that these universities aren’t the same and won’t offer the same academic experience, opportunities, and preparation. Universities aren’t everything to everyone. They don’t pretend to be. No one would contemplate Goucher or Rhodes for energy or agriculture. You don’t pick a university in Georgia if your passion is skiing and if surfing is a requirement then Minneapolis probably won’t work. If OP’s daughter were a premed, Rhodes would win out over Goucher and UWyoming would win out over Goucher too. It’s not a matter of prestige or rankings (if you’ve read some of my posts you must know that’s something I don’t find very useful and I would rather emphasize “fit”.) But one mustn’t fall prey to the fallacy that all universities are basically the same, or that, as one parent said, it’s just 13th and 14th grade. It isn’t. They’re not. That’s why there are schools, pathways, accreditations.
Goucher is near DC in terms of political access/pull (and its student body does reflect that) and yes even Towson has more diversity than Laramie; moreover it offers ready access to Baltimore (Inner Harbor, not Inner city :p) plus JHU and other such colleges. Laramie is a nice college town but no one can argue it’s a good place for international politics and being prepared for foreign service. And it’s nowhere near DC or NYC, which would be the two places that would help, especially in terms of networking. It doesn’t mean Laramie is a bad place and, I repeat, UWyoming has darn good programs for engineering, agriculture, and energy.</p>

104

<p>This is the quarter million dollar question that many parents are asking these days.</p>

105

<p>^I agree.
Parents who have enough (180-200K+) at least :).</p>

106

<p>She may or may not end up in foreign service. Kids change their minds . Sorry if I missed this but is she in for Honors at Wyoming? It looks like a decent program and there is a semester in London. What does she have against it, other than it’s in Wyoming? <a href=“404 - Page Not Found”>http://www.uwyo.edu/honors/about-honors/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

107

<p>Of course kids change their minds. That’s why many folks would argue against going to a school which has only one strength. It’s another thing entirely to start out at a school which offers very little in support of a kid’s initial plans when there are other options. </p>

<p>Agree entirely with MYOS’s post. No one school is the alpha and omega for everyone. </p>

108

<p>You’re automatically assuming that Wyoming “offers very little support of a kid’s initial plans.” Not sure how everybody seems to know that unless they are intimately familiar with the University of Wyoming. Would it be as good as going to Georgetown or GWU if money were no object? Probably not but there is a particular budget this family wants to keep to. <a href=“International Studies Program”>http://www.uwyo.edu/intstudy/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

109

<p>Rhodes website is working again - here is the link to semester away programs including a semester in DC studying at American U and doing internships <a href=“http://www.rhodes.edu/academics/440.asp”>http://www.rhodes.edu/academics/440.asp&lt;/a&gt; That and summer internships would be an economical way to prepare daughter for a life in foreign service or at the very least help her decide if she really likes such a career. </p>

110

<p>Hopefully, she will be able to choose between Wyoming, Rhodes, or Goucher . Otherwise, a gap year. Hope this gets resolved soon for everyone’s sake. It sounds like this has been stressful since the daughter seems to feel she is entitled to go to Barnard. She may not be happy with anything else.</p>

111

<p>D hasn’t applied for honors at Wyoming. She’s concerned she won’t get in, and she is only putting minimal effort into that school, because she would rather not go to college than attend there. She and many of her peers don’t want to go to Wyoming because Laramie is so small and isolated and has terrible weather. Since it accepts nearly all applicants she feels like the majority of students won’t be serious about their studies. She doesn’t want big classes taught by TAs. She doesn’t want to be surrounded by the same kids she grew up with. And she’s a snob.</p>

112

<p>Haha. You saved the best for last!</p>

113

<p>There are many perspectives that we see on this board - even among parents who can’t afford it. But the dilemma is especially piercing for parents whose income theoretically means they can afford “dream schools”.</p>

<p>Here’s my summary of parental perspectives as displayed on CC:
Some parents figure that what matters is the grad school. Other parents acknowledge that their kid will benefit from a smaller/larger environment even if it’s more expensive (all variations, including kids who stay focused when they can play their sport, kids whose allergies make a dry weather better for them, kids who have ADD, etc, etc.) Many parents who are lucky enough to have this dilemma recognize that higher priced school may be higher priced for a reason. Some, often if they’ve been through these types of schools, consider that the value isn’t the education itself, but who your classmates will be and what activities you will do together, creating bonds that will last through your career and life and “keep on giving” - especially for the Ivy League, Little Ivies, Public Ivies (… you get the idea…) and all these schools where established or aspirational families send their kids (often “ranked” top 10 or top 20 in the national U/national LAC USNWR…) Some parents have expensive lifestyles such as foreign vacations, luxury car purchased every 3 years, brand-new everything, eating out 4 times a week… and don’t see why that should change because a child is going to college. I’ve even known parents who thought a private college was good for their son, but pointless for their daughter, strictly because of gender expectations (along the lines of she won’t have a career since she’ll marry/have kids so why waste a pricey education on her.) Some parents consider that the kid can be offered a choice: pricey school now or something else later, be it med school or a downpayment on a house - and then the kid chooses. Some parents believe an 18-year old can’t make the choice. Some parents provide a detailed loan spreadsheet and use software to show how much a loan of x will dent future income (including if it means living at home with parents even if one has a s.o) and let their child decide. Some parents care about bragging rights (whatever school that may mean where they live - could mean Wellesley, Darmouth, or UGA.) In short, reasons for choosing a school or another when you can afford them are very individual. Add to this that each family’s circumstances are different (illness, dependent parents, and unemployment/likelihood thereof are the big factors.)</p>

<p>IMHO, matters really differ depending on whether the parents wonder “is it worth it?” or if they wonder “will I have to sell the house/my blood?” though. Not putting an emoticon because that’s the dilemma for some parents. It doesn’t sound like it’s the case here but that, too, exists - and I can think of only one situation where that made sense (but kind of life/death, the type of story that breaks your heart) most of the time a gap year is better than this kind of sacrifice.
I’ve known parents who thought selling their house was worth it. And others who thought their kid would manage regardless. Sometimes they were right, sometimes they were wrong - depends on the career and kid, whether debt was involved, what the alternative choice was, etc.
Kids who aren’t first-gen and aren’t lower-income tend to do well in most cases, outside some very specific professions or majors. Kids who are first gen or lower income do benefit distinctly from the special networking and opportunities available at what we could well call “elite” schools. Typically, a high level of debt is not worth it.</p>

<p>I think OP’s dilemma is key because if a family can afford different colleges with some belt tightening, then it truly is a family CHOICE and that choice will hurt regardless.</p>

<p>If only Barnard will do, I guess the daughter will be doing a gap year next year… </p>

<p>The GWU vs. Goucher/Rhodes dilemma is interesting because Elliott is such a powerhouse in the field OP’s daughter intends to major in but the cost is so high. The cost/benefit analysis really isn’t easy to do.
(Although GWU not bringing their price down probably solved it: “I don’t have enough money” solves the cost side of the equation… :p)
Barnard vs. GWU isn’t really so striking because GWU is better for OP’s daughter’s major so the competition would be NYC vs. DC, women’s college vs. university, unaffordable vs. crazy unaffordable… not as compelling in terms of dilemma.</p>

114

<p>Oh dear, another parent chiming in, with one in college and another starting to look. I started out rather sympathetic to the high school student and her dreams, but as I continued through the thread, I start to feel she is being too demanding upon her family. </p>

<p>One more anecdote – ages and ages ago, I got into my dream Ivy, but then discovered by spring that it simply wasn’t financially feasible. On paper, the school thought my family could contribute more than we realistically could. So, I could stomp my feet and demand that my family find a way to make my dream come true, or I could recognize that there was more at stake than my perfect happiness, as I defined it then. So, in a few weeks, I had to find a way to love my safety 10 minutes from my home, and affordable, especially if I ran out of money and had to – horror of horrors – move home. I had a wonderful experience at a terrific school, but it wasn’t the one I had imagined after all those glossy view books. For what its worth, I then went on to get my law degree at another Ivy, and had a perfectly marvelous career. Some detours turn out to be the right way after all. </p>

<p>Being a grown up means being responsible. We have to compromise because there are people we love whom we need to consider. </p>

115

<p>I’m really enjoying the conversation. Thank you to everyone who has contributed. Some comments: From the research I did on the Rhodes website the semester programs at Georgetown and AU don’t allow you to use your merit money. This makes them quite expensive. </p>

116

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<p>Absolutely not! No parent should EVER, EVER cosign on an unsecured loan—that is just a recipe for a world of trouble for a lifetime. </p>

<p>The maximum set for federal direct undergraduate loans is a pretty reasonable maximum for a student to take on. It’s reasonable to think that with a 4-year degree, your daughter can manage $20K worth of loans.</p>

<p>She won’t be able to manage more.</p>

<p>Co-signing on private loans are WORSE than you paying out of pocket. You are incurring interest, you have take on a debt responsibility that 9 times out of 10 will fall to the parent --no matter what the kid promises; the loans will be at an unfavorable interest rate and are not dischargeable in bankruptcy.</p>

<p>If you decide to give into your daughter’s demands to finance Barnard or GWU, then suck it up, either take a loan on some of the real estate you own or go for a Parent PLUS loan, and recognize that YOU are paying, not her. Insist that your d. work to pay all the out-of-pocket expenses along the way --she should be working right now to line up a summer job - and ask her to take the maximum in direct student loans… but figure that YOU are the one who is paying the bulk. PLUS loans have high interest but do have long term flexibility in terms of repayment, if your income goes down-- but as you say that you have real estate holdings, then 2nd mortgages or refinancing existing mortgages might be the best bet financially…</p>

<p>Your daughter’s career goals will be much better served if she is able to take unpaid internships and reserve funds for grad school. But based on the statement above… your daughter sounds like she is selfish, immature and short-sighted. (Sorry - I don’t know her and perhaps she is a wonderful kid… but I was always a very liberal, permissive parent, and yet I don’t think either of my kids would have dared make such a pitch to me. In my house, I very rarely said “no” – but when I did, it was taken seriously, no room for debate.)</p>

117

<p>Hunt wrote:

Actually, it can be quite “arbitrary” when a parent is self-employed – or at least seem that way. It’s improved somewhat over the years – back when my son was applying to colleges, my “business” (me) was counted as an asset that was added to the mix. I tried to get away with simply listing the value of my computer & printer as the “asset”, but the college financial aid people figured that my business should be valued at the equivalent of one-year’s income. I was earning about $35K at the time and ended up with an EFC of about $15K. But self-employed people still face the problem of fluctuating year-to-year income and college financial aid practices that will routinely add back some Schedule C deductions into their income, or cap the level of their overhead, etc. </p>

<p>I don’t know the OP’s financial situation, but I do know that a self-employed person needs to take a more conservative approach to assets management. If the business has a high overhead, then it’s not just a matter that the person’s income might be lower at times – keeping the business open though hard times can end up costing money – depending on the nature of the business, that out-of-pocket cost can be thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars. Even at the low end, if the parent is paying rent on an office or the salary of support staff, the cash flow may often be negative when business is slow.</p>

118

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<p>My Barnard-grad daughter refers to many of her former classmates as “trust fund babies.” I don’t think their parents paid for their college out of current income — I think they are the offspring of affluent parents who set up accounts in their names when they were infants, and those kids probably have hundreds of thousands of dollars already sitting in accounts earmarked for their benefit. </p>

<p>I am not saying that applies to all full pay students – but I think that is what you would find with many. It makes sense for affluent families to put money in their children’s names, and there are a lot of tax benefits to socking away the money in 529 accounts. </p>

<p>So to them there’s not the same question of value. It isn’t, “what can we afford” because they already have money set aside and earmarked for the purpose of funding the education. Affluent people look for ways to shelter their money from taxes, and setting up funds for their kids is one way to do it. </p>

119

<p>I must have missed something. What on earth does the weather really have to do with the discussion at this level? Did you just move to Wyoming recently? Isn’t she adapted to the weather there?</p>

120

<p>There are many stories of pioneers being driven mad by the constant wind on the high prairie. </p>

<p>My daughter is a terrific kid! In public she is very poised and charming, at home not so much. She is spoiled in many ways, but she doesn’t have a car, and we don’t put money in her pocket. She works at a job for all her spending money. We are working people in an affluent town, and there are a lot of very wealthy families whose kids have unlimited opportunity. It’s easy for kids and adults to lose track of how people live in the real world.</p>