@shortnuke is right. At my son’s honors program, he will have students from all over the country. Also , don’t discount OOS privates.
@droppedit might be interested in a book that is available on Amazon. A Review of 50 Public Honors Programs. Author is John Willingham. My perception is that these programs can provide some great opportunities and unique experiences. Some programs more than others.
@LOUKYDAD Thanks for the tip! Looks like the book will be revised this fall and include 75 programs.
@droppedit - I second the OOS honors programs. In my son’s case, merit $$$ were fantastic, MUCH better than in-state. As others have said, some honors programs seem to have the advantages of a small LAC within the opportunities of a large, vibrant school.
There can be differences between honors colleges and honors programs at different schools, so read carefully about how they are structured and what they offer.
Not to rehash this, but if you can get her to prep for the PSAT it can really pay off if she gets NMS as it opens doors for some honors programs and/or scholarships. ANd prepping can sometimes let your dau be in the “one and done” camp of testing. It sure can take a load off! Good luck.
sort of confused what this thread is about. if she won’t meet the criteria for the high end schools, then why compare them to State U honors colleges and programs? it seems like high end schools are off the table, so the question should probably be, are “State U honors colleges and programs worth it?” and i would say, absolutely.
this website is dedicated to examining and comparing Public U Honors colleges and programs. he wrote the book that a couple other posters mentioned:
http://publicuniversityhonors.com/
if you cannot get in a high-end school, Public U Honors is likely the next best thing.
PS - when son actually buckled down and studied for the SAT, his score went up 200 points (2400 point scale). This has opened up a lot of possibilities, not the least of which is merit $$$.
We sound like we have somewhat similar kids (ours is an IVF kid and then I had all sorts of post-partum complications). My kid is bright, interested in learning and a hard worker. She has some good ECs but she does not have a huge list like I see here sometimes.
I simply could NOT get her on board with prepping for the ACT. Despite showing her she had true potential to be a NMF based on her sophomore year PSAT. She just needed to practice some math techniques and timing. She begrudgingly attended a prep class but didn’t do ANY of the work associated with the prep class. She ended up with a SI of 203.
A few months later, after reading and learning a lot here on CC, we sat her down for the “budget talk.” We showed her the 529 and our savings. She reminded us that she was determined to go OOS to school. We told her we would love her to meet her goal, but merit aid would need to happen if the OOS is going to happen. Need based aid will not happen because we look great on paper (which unfortunately does not reflect 2-3 years of lost primary income to layoffs, etc.).
SO…she took the ACT just as a baseline. She made a 30 and came out of the test motivated and said “I can prep for this but let me do it on my own and my own way.” And so she did. Most days when she came home from school or work she sat for the first 45-60 minutes and took a practice section. She then carefully studied what she missed. She did this for months and eventually raised her score to a 32 and then a 34.
She now has a LOT more possibilities for merit aid OOS. She earned those choices and she is happy now she put in the hard work.
Anyway, the short version is this…she can give herself a lot more choices if she will put in some time on prep. My daughter has kicked herself more than once for not putting in the work prior to the PSAT (we sat next to a girl who will be a likely NMF here in our state and her ACT score was less than Ds). Showing your kid what is possible with a little bit of prep is NOT pushing her…it is showing her what is out there and what she can go get with some hard work.
My D could’ve simply decided not to prep. That’s cool, that’s fine…but she would’ve been attending the school that is literally blocks away from her high school next fall. And that is not cool, not fine with her.
BTW it is your dau’s selection index score on the PSAT that will matter. Just curious, what was it for her in 10th grade?
it’s worth pointing out that if the premise of your question is “can one have small, high quality classes at a state school, thereby saving money” you should be able to find a true small school experience at a very good liberal arts school for the same cost or less with merit $.
I have a son in u mich honors (oos) and a another son at oberlin, two very different experiences.
“Showing your kid what is possible with a little bit of prep is NOT pushing her.” Well, yes it is, a little, but asking a kid to put in some effort to perform their best, to do what they can toward college costs–the payoff for that prep can be enormous both financially and in terms of opening up more college options, is hardly “throwing them to the wolves”. Expecting them to take an active role in their educational planning is just common sense. Would you be ok if she went to a job interview with no prep–didn’t bother to look up any info on the company or make sure she was dressed appropriately? Said she was premed but refused to study for the MCAT?
@Wien2NC – I guess the title of the thread is just me thinking out loud. When I say high end I’m looking at schools where my D’s ACT score is at the 25th percentile. Her score is already at the 75th for state U, so if she gets that score even higher she could potentially get into some sort of honors program at state U where she would get many of the same benefits in terms of actual education (smaller classes, etc.). Basically, I anticipate rejection at all her reaches and want to look at higher end options at target/safety schools. I want to quietly steer her in that direction.
@carachel2 – Really liked your post, thanks. IVF here, as well, as you might have guessed (third one took). Our girls sound very similar, right down to the OOS issue, which I don’t understand. I hope my D is able to boost her scores on the next round of testing like yours did. We had her take the ACT in 10th grade because after she took the PSAT I figured that she might as well take a practice ACT too. A way of demystifying the whole thing.
@jym626 – SI was 209 (math being the lowest score). I don’t exactly understand how the “test scores” map to the front page scores (which were 720 and 650).
SI = Verbal * 2 + Math. So, in your case, ((720*2) + 650)/10 = 209.
Can anyone comment on the social differences between the two? My kid doesn’t want to consider the honors colleges because she doesn’t consider herself “nerdy or quirky” and thinks not only will she not fit in with the other honors kids but also it will isolate her from the normal kids (where socially she thinks she fits in better). She is somewhat insecure so take her words as they are…true or not.
That said she wants to be with smart kids…just smart kids like her so she thinks that a smaller selective school where everyone is smart might be better socially. (But I guess here we risk a place where all the kids are “nerdy and quirky” and she is left with no other group of kids to hang out with)
That’s a good score for a sophomore. Would put her in the national merit commended category if she were a rising senior. So she should prep, IMO, for the PSAT. It may open up lots of scholarship doors esp if she is a NMSF next year. And many people don’t realize this until it is too late. Keep in mind if she makes it to NMSF she’ll need a SAT to support it, but don’t worry about that now. If she is more comfortable with the ACT, let her prepare for that.
If her SI was 209 as a sophomore, with some effort she stands a serious chance of NMF if she will agree to put in some work to fine tune some areas. It’s worth a shot at least!
Honestly the test boost and test prep work (which was done without too much extra stress and without a lot of anxiety on her part) came from these things:
-we were very emphatic with her that her initial ACT score was a solid score and “good enough” to get her IN to college and to most of our state schools (i.e. she was not freaking out with anxiety and worry that her score was too low) and we also made her aware that we could pay for most of our state schools (UT would stretch the limit of our budget, but it can be doable). So the pressure of being good enough to get in to these schools was off.
-we showed her the merit scholarships that are possible with a higher score (some of them are not guaranteed and these are her reach schools). I also printed a few success stories from CC of kids who raised their scores without paying thousands of dollars on a test prep company. We also pointed out that her Dad and I are putting in a lot of work to pay for her college so we do expect her to put in some time also.
-she decided, on her own, that it was worth the time and effort to at least try. Nothing in this world can be had without effort and she learned that in the past year.
Additionally, we pointed out that her “salary” of working just 4-5 hrs per week x 3 months on test prep (some weeks a little less, some a little more) had a potential “payout” of almost $500-$1,000 an HOUR if she ends up earning anywhere from partial to full tuition. Once she saw math on paper she was all on board. She is proud of herself because she knows she has worked hard.
I think there is a way to motivate your kid without stressing her out. Once my kid owned the process we found we didn’t have to nag and push…it was amazing and so nice. The biggest thing for her (and for kids this age in general) is not just hoping and wanting…but learning and doing and working.
We told our younger son that if he made NMSF he could drive dad’s convertible to school for a day or so (can’t remember exactly). The college counselor gave me the heads up and we greeted DS at the door (when he got home that day) with the keys to the car. I still smile remembering the look on his face.
@stlarenas Because each honors program is different , it’s hard to really say whether your daughter’s concerns are on target or not. My son applied to and was accepted to 2 Honors programs at our instate schools which both were very competitive for admission . He attended Honors receptions for both programs which we were lucky enough to be able to attend because of proximity to our home . Both programs had Honors classes that only Honors students participated in, but also had classes with the rest of the student population . One program had students who were clearly very smart, but also very competitive and not very friendly. The other had very smart, but " normal" , not overly nerdy, friendly , excited to learn, collaborative ( not super competitive students ) It’s interesting to note that the second Honors reception was actually at an interview weekend where all of the students were competing for some lucrative scholarships , yet most students were extremely supportive of one another . My son chose the second school because of the atmosphere he experienced that weekend. It really is important to listen to you kids and for them to listen to their instincts. It usually serves them well. My advice is to make a visit if possible , it helps make the decision easier IMO.
@DoyleB – oh jeez, now the whole PSAT thing is clear to me (I’m not an idiot, I just play one on the internet!). The Test Scores were 36, 36, 32.5 which resulted in 10(36+36) = 720 and 102*(32.5) = 650.